IDM Mailing Archive

Sometimes I like to imagine that Tom Jenkins is the kind of person who could just as well have ended up in a Jazz Fusion band if not for some timely mind-bending introduction to breakbeat electro and digital music about four years ago. Some of the songs on Hard Normal Daddy could indeed pass as Fusion. A freind of mine thought it was fusion when he heard it, and he knows what jungle is. The opening track sounds like a 70's cop TV show theme song. To me, 99% of jungle sounds the same, and it sounds very different from SP. If you heard a NEW t-Power track, or a new Dillinja track, or any of those guys Simon Reynolds talks about, would you be able to identlify the artist without being told who it is? In fact, think about how many artists there are who you could identify at all just by the way it sounds. The list would be tiny, and it would include Squarepusher. It would not include 99% of jungle artists. 99% of jungle artists are basically just one big musician with a single agenda: to create the perfect expression of the formulaic jungle/house track. These guys make good music, but not great music. TJ makes great music. I think the artists whom this list revolves around (AFX, Squarepusher, etc) have distinct styles and innovative ideologies about what they do, and purposefully differentiate themselves from mainstream crap. Most artists try to fit into a scene and make music which fits into a mix (which is what Simon Reynolds advocates). Most artists seek to conform, which is why I think they mostly suck. Some people try on purpose to make music which sounds different and distinct. These people do not suck. I don't even think of what SP does as jungle because if you make a list of what he does with his music and who his influences are in order of importance, you will probably come up with something decidedly un-jungle. He's a bass player and obviously has some drum skills. I'll bet he played in his high school marching band, if they have them in england. I'll even bet he doesn't even listen to much jungle, and I'll bet he never went to a rave in his life. Maybe I'm idealizing him. I need a drink... -CF -----Original Message----- From: April O'Neal [SMTP:giv@purescript.com.au] T-Power was doing experimental Drum and Bass when Jenkins was still hanging out with his raver friends in the early 90s, BUT.... Squarepusher has taken Jungle and taken it to the edge, even Aphex can't top that, but there is only so much you can do with jungle and thats why 'Hard Normal Daddy' has taken a sudden turn towards cheesy 70s disco funk and Tom knows that!

Christopher Fahey <chrisfahey@mindspring.com> writes:

quoted 3 lines If you heard a NEW t-Power track, or a new Dillinja track, or any

> If you heard a NEW t-Power track, or a new Dillinja track, or any > of those guys Simon Reynolds talks about, would you be able to > identlify the artist without being told who it is?

In the case of T-Power, or say the No U-Turn crew, or Panacea , the answer would have to be yes. Both have distinct styles, as do many other junglists. I have friends that can spot Shy-FX, Aphrodite, Ganja Kru, and many others, but then they listen to a >lot< of jungle, (which isn't that hard when you live in grand jungle central). Oh, and Reynolds can kiss my crack with his big wannabe lips.

quoted 6 lines In fact, think about how many artists there are who you could

> In fact, think about how many artists there are who you could > identify at all just by the way it sounds. The list would be tiny, > and it would include Squarepusher. It would not include 99% of > jungle artists. 99% of jungle artists are basically just one big > musician with a single agenda: to create the perfect expression of > the f

The F? Surely this is just a variant on the 'It all sounds the same' argument, which is deeply rooted in your listening context. To me, italian opera all sounds the same, but this is obviously not true for (most if not all) italian opera fans. Of course ths isn't to say I don't like italian opera, just that I haven't listened to that much. pHile "Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." Groucho Marx

If I played two operas to you side by side, and told you the names of the composers, I'll bet I could play you a third track by one of the composers and you could pick out who it was almost instantly. This was a big revelation to me in my understanding of classical music and jazz. You don't have to be a total fanatic to understand some basic indiviudual artistic tendencies and expressions. I really, honestly don't think most jungle music has much artistic commitment to individuality or convention-breaking. Because of this, it really does "all sound the same" sometimes. There's variations on quality within the formula, but rarely do the artists leave the formula. Jungle is more formulaic than pop. Pop: Use your guitars to make a riff with a hook to it. Write several simple rhyming verses. Play riff over and over and sing the words using this formula: verse/verse/chorus/verse/verse/chorus/bridge/verse/chorus/chorus Insert drums according to taste. Model after Ringo. Jungle: Get three breakbeats from a zero-g record. Call them Breakbeat 1, Breakbeat 2, and Breakbeat 3. Make sure they are all 140bpm, not a bpm more or less. Using three bass notes, insert bass hits between beats on the three breaks. You are practically done now. Get a cool sample from a movie or a cartoon or even from a non-jungle record.. Repo Man is good. Something which refers to freeing your mind or something is also good. Warning: If you use a diva, you will be called "soft". Extra credit: Make one cool sound on a freind's synth. Combine : BB1/BB1/BB2/BB1/BB1/BB2/BB3/BB1/BB2/BB2 Play the movie sample or the synth sound sometimes. -Chris Fahey (oversimplifyng to be cute) -----Original Message----- From: pHile [SMTP:PHIL@argonaut.com] Surely this is just a variant on the 'It all sounds the same' argument, which is deeply rooted in your listening context. To me, italian opera all sounds the same, but this is obviously not true for (most if not all) italian opera fans. Of course ths isn't to say I don't like italian opera, just that I haven't listened to that much.

This is because you play for a bunch of drugged out robots who need to be spoon-fed beats to releive themselves from the terrible pressure of having to talk to each other and think about the sounds the musicians are making. You should play for toe-gazing head nodding pointy-headed intellectuals sipping dark beer and discussing what kind of cartridge the DJ's using and whether or not DJ Spooky is more like Descartes or like Aristotle. Nah, just kidding. There are just different kinds of gigs. Beat mixing is important for some crowds and some gigs, but it's not a necessary element of DJ-ing. And, like I said before, this goes for AMP as well. It's for watching, not dancing. Unless you have the TV on at home and pumped up real loud and you are in your living room with some freinds flippin out and dancing around, I don't see why people expect it to be beat-matched. They have to color match and pattern-match and theme-match. They even producer-match. A video is not just a beat, and a video show is not a rave. -CF -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bowen [SMTP:mb@gettins.bche.uic.edu] I don't know what kind of dance events you go to/spin at, but where I'm from if there's a non-beatmatched mix and the tunes are real loud it sounds like a trainwreck and people leave the floor. --

What *are* you guys, freakin human metronomes? ;) -CF -----Original Message-----

quoted 2 lines don't know what you're listening to but most jungle is in the 160s.

> don't know what you're listening to but most jungle is in the 160s. > no-u turn records are all around 170.

he must have been listening at 33 ;)

quoted 5 lines Jungle:

> > Jungle: > > Get three breakbeats from a zero-g record. Call them Breakbeat 1, Breakbeat 2, and Breakbeat 3. Make sure they are all 140bpm, not a bpm more or less. > > don't know what you're listening to but most jungle is in the 160s. > no-u turn records are all around 170.

he must have been listening at 33 ;) -- k.F "I tried unloading banana trains and for while I had a job collecting horses hooves for a sausage skin and glue manufacturer. They also gave me a job after that, throwing cows heads into a bone crushing machine.I soon realised that these jobs weren't really what I wanted to do." -Lol Coxhill Quote.

quoted 3 lines If I played two operas to you side by side, and told you the names of the

>> >>If I played two operas to you side by side, and told you the names of the >>composers, I'll bet I could play you a third track by one of the composers

and >>you could pick out who it was almost instantly. This was a big revelation to >>me in my understanding of classical music and jazz. You don't have to be a

quoted 2 lines total fanatic to understand some basic indiviudual artistic tendencies....

>>total fanatic to understand some basic indiviudual artistic tendencies.... >>Jungle is more formulaic than pop.

there is certainly formulaic jungle but to call it all formulaic is absurd. If I play idm (Autechre, AFX, Orb etc) for my grandmother she says it all sounds same. That's because she only hears the beat. She is not attuned to the subtleties that distinguish styles. Anyone who says that the metalheadz sound is the same as Amon Tobin or that the Penny Black darkness is the same as Bukem's dolphin sound doesn't listen carefully. Face it. electronic music as a whole is fairly formulaic. Start with a beat and start layering over the top. Maybe some breakdowns or synthwashs or whatever. Its an empirical music made largely by trial and error without much need for specialized training or knowledge. It doesn't have the compositional quality of classical or even jazz IMO. But to say jungle is somehow more so than techno or ambient is really just climbing on a high horse about your own personal taste. -- Mark Edward Bowen Warmed Breakdown mb@gettins.bche.uic.edu

On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Mark Bowen wrote:

quoted 5 lines Face it. electronic music as a whole is fairly formulaic. Start with a beat

> Face it. electronic music as a whole is fairly formulaic. Start with a beat > and start layering over the top. Maybe some breakdowns or synthwashs or > whatever. Its an empirical music made largely by trial and error without much > need for specialized training or knowledge. It doesn't have the compositional > quality of classical or even jazz IMO.

I basically agree with what you're saying, with a few adjustments: - "quality" means different things in different subcultures. Also, some empirically produced music, driven by "trial and error," is of higher quality than other music produced by the same process. And quality means different things to different people--all of which leads me to the conclusion that quality is a loaded word that should be handled carefully. - "Composition" isn't necessarily superior to trial and error. At the same time, composition isn't necessarily incompatible with dance idioms. It's just that very few people are interested in doing both, but that doesn't mean it can't, or shouldn't, be done. (Pace Simon Reynolds, the poor fool.) Just some random neural activity-- J ________ \ / | Bee women: "What kind of corn soldiers are you?" H. James Harkins | Arthur: "Umm, oh, er, we're, uh, we're colonels." jharkins@acpub.duke.edu | \/ | - from "The Tick," now on Comedy Central, 6PM M-F "If we keep our attention focused on the present, we can be sure of one thing, namely that whatever we are attending to in this moment will change..." -- Jon Kabat-Zinn