IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 5 lines MAKER OF ALL CAPS wrote:

>MAKER OF ALL CAPS wrote: > i meet someone last week that works in some capacity at trent reznor's nothing > studios in new orleans. she told me that mr. reznor give her a load of vinyl > records and a lesson in _recycle_. her job? to find decent drum loops and funk > samples, edit them, and catalog them.

quoted 4 lines aaron@defiant.on-it.net (Aaron Michelson) responded:

>aaron@defiant.on-it.net (Aaron Michelson) responded: >Ah, it's nice when you're rich.... >BTW: reznor did the same thing on the last album (the downward spiral) >except he had a catalogue of 3000 samples from horror films...

Well, true. I'm also sure that many of the IDM listers( not necessarily you two) who are also musicians and/or dj's are just green with envy that these people *have* acess to such tools/facilities/hired employee sample slaves. I also personally know of at least two musician/ d.j types who have quite a bit of dough who *HIRE*people to shop for records for them, old LPs, break and sample LPs, etc. As far as *paying* someone to do this work, well...this is one of the luxuries of wealth, I 'spose. I can't say that I would feel too guilty doing this if I have the money that he ( Trent ) did. I would probably feel a bit *superficial*, but not guilty. Superficial because I feel that whatever music I do should be from me, or * at least * resultant of the work from someone in my band. Also, consider someone handing you a pile of random LPs and having you pick out the decent drum loops and funk samples. Will that person have the knowledge, experience, foresight and facility to figure out which samples are common and which ones are the sample gems of tomorrow? Whose to know until its sampled and released? "Hey, check it out!, I found this killer break by this guy named...James Brown!, its full of horns and drum breaks and everything! We're gonna have a HIT with this one!" Lets also consider some groups whose labels are owned by much larger mother labels. Even some IDM adored groups ( no I won't name names...) have parent labels who open their catalogs of recordings ( and thus samples) to the artists, labels that live under them. While this seems shitty to the jealous, it sure sounds fun for the artist. But then again, how much fun is it to legally and simply plunder an open catalog? It seems that the most unusual sample sources come from less obvious sources. On that note, while this is less IDM, whats the deal with Mr. Scruffy, while on the obscure sample theme? And on that tip: LAND OF THE LOOPS! on Up, check it out... np: The Clash: Sandinista ( one sample here that I know of ) bpm0@interport.net Peter Becker, Promotions: Retail, DJ Pool Asphodel Records, NYC PO Box 51, Chelsea Station, NY NY 10113 Phone # (212) 965-0265 FAX # (212) 965-0959 http://www.asphodel.com

it would seem to me that everyone who is supportive/understanding of this whole thing are overlooking the fact that the actions of trent reznor are taking an artform - one developed by people with actual talent and ability - not the luxury of time,money or others willing to give life to their own individual visions, and is reducing it to a commodity to be consumed. i would think one could safetly say that a good many people who make the music which trent is now leeching off of did or do so for little more than the sake of expression or 'cos its "what they like to do" and ask/expect/try for little more than to earn a decent living through the music as the world doesnt exactally cater towards their types, where as trent reznor is merely cashing in on what the true artists are doing for no reason other than greed. now just to give him the benefit of the doubt...perhaps trent himself (whom im sure knows what its like to be a struggling artist of any type) knows a good thing when he sees it and is making the effort to "return a favour" and help some fellow artisans to get some exposure and cease their struggle and be able to pay the rent and live comfortably as he knows what influence he has upon the kids in america (lemmings) buying the music and that if trent says its cool well then by golly i think its cool too but then i ask..whats the difference between someone creating a track with samples that someone culled for them and someone making a track from any of those sample-loop cd's that are advertised in all the keyboard magazines...does the fact that its "trent reznor" justify it in any way? "act like a dumbshit and be treated as an equal" - J.R. "Bob" Dobbs jonathan

jah geek writes:

quoted 5 lines it would seem to me that everyone who is supportive/understanding of this

> it would seem to me that everyone who is supportive/understanding of this > whole thing are overlooking the fact that the actions of trent reznor are > taking an artform - one developed by people with actual talent and ability > - not the luxury of time,money or others willing to give life to their own > individual visions, and is reducing it to a commodity to be consumed.

all art is commodity (unless you don't attempt to sell it at all of course). to think otherwise is naive.

quoted 2 lines trent reznor is merely cashing in on what the true artists are doing for no

> trent reznor is merely cashing in on what the true artists are doing for no > reason other than greed.

how do you know this? maybe he honestly loves what he's doing but he just doesn't have the talent to create something new? i know plenty of local unknown musicians who are into it "For Art" but just churn out a lot of sucky music cos they don't have any talent.

quoted 4 lines but then i ask..whats the difference between someone creating a track with

> but then i ask..whats the difference between someone creating a track with > samples that someone culled for them and someone making a track from any of > those sample-loop cd's that are advertised in all the keyboard > magazines...does the fact that its "trent reznor" justify it in any way?

i think the whole argument is pointless and irrelevant. what if you learned that your favorite ever track in the whole world had a (gasp) preset sound in it? or a loop that the artist's sister found and told him to use? how does that make the track any less valuable? is Pump Up The Volume suddenly a crap track because all the sounds in it can be found on any one of a dozen sample CDs? it ain't the sample, it's what you do with it. -- Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com SpotMedia Communications ...I was an infinitely hot and dense dot...

quoted 3 lines samples that someone culled for them and someone making a track from any of

>samples that someone culled for them and someone making a track from any of >those sample-loop cd's that are advertised in all the keyboard >magazines...does the fact that its "trent reznor" justify it in any way?

Funny one should bring this up. I have two tacky loops discs, _Loopzilla_ and _Industrial and Dance Loops and Beats_. My pal Earl, who lent them to me, identified samples taken from these commercial loop discs in _broken_ and _downward spiral_.

On Thu, 29 May 1997, MAKER OF ALL CAPS wrote: } Funny one should bring this up. I have two tacky loops discs, _Loopzilla_ and } _Industrial and Dance Loops and Beats_. My pal Earl, who lent them to me, } identified samples taken from these commercial loop discs in _broken_ and } _downward spiral_. Perhaps the sampling was done the other way around. | E r i c | [mail] franse@engr.arizona.edu | | F r a n s | [web] http://engr.arizona.edu/~franse | "Make the events occur that you want to occur" - The Black Dog

In a message dated 97-05-29 15:18:31 EDT, you write: << i would think one could safetly say that a good many people who make the music which trent is now leeching off of did or do so for little more than the sake of expression or 'cos its "what they like to do" and ask/expect/try for little more than to earn a decent living through the music as the world doesnt exactally cater towards their types, where as trent reznor is merely cashing in on what the true artists are doing for no reason other than greed. >> Well if trent reznor is a leech then so is richard d james, luke vibert, booth and brown, ect.. i guess when richard d james decided to do a drum and bass track it was ok because its rdj, but if trent reznor decides to dabble in it he is a leech. The fact is every artist borrows out the ass, whether it be from your contempories or past artists. It's whether or not if the artist does so in his own voice and maybe with some degree of innovation or integrity. Reznor does so and so does vibert and rdj. Reznor does do his own sampling, but because he can afford to, he has others who also sample. wow. Instead of having a sample bank of 1000 sounds now he has 3000. Seems pretty smart to me. Ohh im sorry trent reznor isn't a "true artist", 98% of the stuff that appears on nin albums was created by him, but he isn't a "true artist". sometimes i just can't understand.

quoted 2 lines Well if trent reznor is a leech then so is richard d james, luke vibert,

> Well if trent reznor is a leech then so is richard d james, luke vibert, > booth and brown, ect..

"one of these things is not like the other ones...." :)

quoted 3 lines Reznor does do his

> Reznor does do his > own sampling, but because he can afford to, he has others who also sample. > wow.

It just seems ridiculous. Some people consider finding and creating samples and beats an artform in itself, DJ Shadow being an excellent example of this. When Shadow was on Metropolis last Jason Bentley told a story about how when Shadow was here last time he got up at 5am after djing all night so he could go to a swap meet to search the old records for beats. That is what I call devotion to ones art. Trent makes a mockery of it. I wonder if the bomb squad ever hired people to search for samples for them?

quoted 3 lines i guess when richard d james decided to do a drum

> i guess when richard d james decided to do a drum > and bass track it was ok because its rdj, but if trent reznor decides to > dabble in it he is a leech.

Basically yeah since richards been doing breakbeat tracks since 1990. The thought of trent making jungle makes some of us who truly love that music cringe. Mostly because trent reznor makes an idiot of himself with his ridiculous tortured soul posturing and his oh im so gloomy marketing gimmicks. I hate to see the music i'm into (aka plug) being associated with that and brought down to that level. oh well... _____ / ,-,_) /,_) (/ RESH Live & Direct from the G-Spot, Orange County, California, USA http://www1.linkonline.net/fresh/fresh.htm

quoted 37 lines Well if trent reznor is a leech then so is richard d james, luke vibert,

>> Well if trent reznor is a leech then so is richard d james, luke vibert, >> booth and brown, ect.. > >"one of these things is not like the other ones...." :) > >> Reznor does do his >> own sampling, but because he can afford to, he has others who also sample. >> wow. > >It just seems ridiculous. Some people consider finding and creating >samples and beats an artform in itself, DJ Shadow being an excellent >example of this. When Shadow was on Metropolis last Jason Bentley told a >story about how when Shadow was here last time he got up at 5am after >djing all night so he could go to a swap meet to search the old records >for beats. That is what I call devotion to ones art. Trent makes a >mockery of it. I wonder if the bomb squad ever hired people to search >for samples for them? > >> i guess when richard d james decided to do a drum >> and bass track it was ok because its rdj, but if trent reznor decides to >> dabble in it he is a leech. > >Basically yeah since richards been doing breakbeat tracks since 1990. >The thought of trent making jungle makes some of us who truly love that >music cringe. Mostly because trent reznor makes an idiot of himself with >his ridiculous tortured soul posturing and his oh im so gloomy marketing >gimmicks. I hate to see the music i'm into (aka plug) being associated >with that and brought down to that level. > >oh well... > _____ > / ,-,_) > /,_) >(/ RESH >Live & Direct from the G-Spot, >Orange County, California, USA >http://www1.linkonline.net/fresh/fresh.htm

i knew you'd get it...

Gonzi \(Fresh\) writes:

quoted 3 lines It just seems ridiculous. Some people consider finding and creating

> It just seems ridiculous. Some people consider finding and creating > samples and beats an artform in itself, DJ Shadow being an excellent > example of this.

tell him he can quit wasting his time. i just got "endtroducing" and i can't see what all the fuss is about.

quoted 2 lines The thought of trent making jungle makes some of us who truly love that

> The thought of trent making jungle makes some of us who truly love that > music cringe.

why does it get you so upset? if the spice girls start doing jungle it isn't going to change my opinion about breaks one little bit.

quoted 3 lines Mostly because trent reznor makes an idiot of himself with

> Mostly because trent reznor makes an idiot of himself with > his ridiculous tortured soul posturing and his oh im so gloomy marketing > gimmicks.

i agree, the pose is old.

quoted 2 lines I hate to see the music i'm into (aka plug) being associated

> I hate to see the music i'm into (aka plug) being associated > with that and brought down to that level.

but interestingly, mr plug himself seems to have no problem with working with trent... his album is coming out on trent's label, he did a great remix of perfect drug... if it doesn't bother him, why does it bother you? -- Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com SpotMedia Communications ...I was an infinitely hot and dense dot...

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Random Junk wrote: } Gonzi \(Fresh\) writes: } > It just seems ridiculous. Some people consider finding and creating } > samples and beats an artform in itself, DJ Shadow being an excellent } > example of this. } } tell him he can quit wasting his time. i just got "endtroducing" and } i can't see what all the fuss is about. Gee, that's suprising. ;) That's a pretty weak argument for Shadow to stop "wasting" his time. Care to elaborate? | E r i c | [mail] franse@engr.arizona.edu | | F r a n s | [web] http://engr.arizona.edu/~franse | "Make the events occur that you want to occur" - The Black Dog

Eric Frans writes:

quoted 5 lines } tell him he can quit wasting his time. i just got "endtroducing" and

> } tell him he can quit wasting his time. i just got "endtroducing" and > } i can't see what all the fuss is about. > > Gee, that's suprising. ;) That's a pretty weak argument for > Shadow to stop "wasting" his time. Care to elaborate?

i'm working on detailed reviews of all the stuff i bought while in boston, but in a nutshell... the music doesn't change enough and isn't interesting in its own right. it sounds like backing tracks to rap songs. i keep waiting for the vocals to come in. but they don't. so i get bored and fast forward... -- Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com SpotMedia Communications ...I was an infinitely hot and dense dot...

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Random Junk wrote:

quoted 5 lines i'm working on detailed reviews of all the stuff i bought while in

> i'm working on detailed reviews of all the stuff i bought while in > boston, but in a nutshell... the music doesn't change enough and isn't > interesting in its own right. it sounds like backing tracks to rap > songs. i keep waiting for the vocals to come in. but they don't. so > i get bored and fast forward...

I agree completely with you.... while shadow as a dj may infact deserve the much-hyped reputation he's earned, his debut album was really not that captivating enough.... there were a few strong tracks, but hardly enough kick to justify an albums worth of song. Now, the new Herbaliser album on Ninjatune is damn good.... DJ Vadim single bores me to tears though. Seems like hippity hoppity bouncy music these days is pretty hit and miss..... Aaron

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Random Junk wrote:

quoted 12 lines Eric Frans writes:

> Eric Frans writes: > > } tell him he can quit wasting his time. i just got "endtroducing" and > > } i can't see what all the fuss is about. > > > > Gee, that's suprising. ;) That's a pretty weak argument for > > Shadow to stop "wasting" his time. Care to elaborate? > > i'm working on detailed reviews of all the stuff i bought while in > boston, but in a nutshell... the music doesn't change enough and isn't > interesting in its own right. it sounds like backing tracks to rap > songs. i keep waiting for the vocals to come in. but they don't. so > i get bored and fast forward...

I am quite thankful that there are few vocals on the DJ Shadow cd. Its definitely one of the better releases I heard last year. DJ Cam has released some cool stuff as well. William Samuels

how can one do this and not feel like shit. i mean the people aren't even credited on the albums god. how can somebody even live like that. taking credit for someone elses work. on certain nine inch nails tracks it is entirely based around sample (Pinion is just the guitar at the end of some bowie song) i, personally love seaching through old records for good samples.

On Thursday, 29-May-97, MultSanta@aol.com wrote [about Re: (idm) reznor/sample/thoughts]:

quoted 6 lines how can one do this and not feel like shit.

>how can one do this and not feel like shit. >i mean the people aren't even credited on the albums >god. how can somebody even live like that. >taking credit for someone elses work. >on certain nine inch nails tracks it is entirely based around sample (Pinion >is just the guitar at the end of some bowie song)

I agree, I cannot see how anyone would do this maybe more than a handful of times in a few years time, I've done it maybe 3 times since I've started doing tracks. but let's not forget.. The entire track _Phiesope_ on µ-Ziq: In Pine Effect is taken from some girl's(??) guitar song. however he doesn't take credit for it, he credits the author of it in the sleeve-book. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ , m7=

Gonzi, sometimes you drive us all nuts, but man I am with you on what you just wrote! Too bad I missed the Metrop show last night, damn! I did happen to hear one of the tracks on his new single, not the title track but one that is just madness of scratching on top of a beat, I am thrilled with this shit. DJ SHADOW is wicked and a true artist. Reznor is a business man. He knows what he's doing and the dollar is helping him right along. However, Reznor paid his dues in the beginning, he was just right time right place and now he can sucker all the kids with crappy music/gloomy image. Tough shit for the marylin Manson/reznor fans, they just don't realize that this whole thing has been before (KISS/Alice Cooper). gonzi wrote:

quoted 3 lines gimmicks. I hate to see the music i'm into (aka plug) being associated

> gimmicks. I hate to see the music i'm into (aka plug) being associated > with that and brought down to that level. >

I too am ashamed Plug is associated with the Nothing label, but like I said, Reznor knows his shit as a businessman. Sometimes a label's name could be a good indicator of the music it releases, cause there sures is nothing good comming from that NOTHING label, hopefully PLUG will not stay on too long.

quoted 2 lines Well if trent reznor is a leech then so is richard d james, luke vibert,

> > Well if trent reznor is a leech then so is richard d james, luke vibert, > > booth and brown, ect..

I can't believe I am seeing booth and brown in the same sentence as reznor. Something is just not right. AFAIK, Booth and Brown, RDJ, etc, they do their own work, not hire someone to do it. That's why he's a leech. Pretty crystal clear if you ask me....

quoted 1 line

>

quoted 3 lines story about how when Shadow was here last time he got up at 5am after

> story about how when Shadow was here last time he got up at 5am after > djing all night so he could go to a swap meet to search the old records > for beats.

Yeah, I go to them swap meats myself, usually looking for car parts for my uncle's '36 Chevy, but Shadow is right. I see tons and tons of vinyl. Learn from the masters folks, if you're a vinyl sampling freak (I am not) get off yer ass. Seek and you shall find!!!

quoted 6 lines i guess when richard d james decided to do a drum

> > > i guess when richard d james decided to do a drum > > and bass track it was ok because its rdj, but if trent reznor decides to > > dabble in it he is a leech. > > Basically yeah since richards been doing breakbeat tracks since 1990.

Again, Trent was making some killer tracks around 90 too! Not drum n bass, nevertheless he was ahead of some in the crowd. Perry Farrel picked his ass up on that Lollipop tour and now Trent is a millionare, maybe he should be paying Perry for his fame and his 'leechness'???

quoted 3 lines The thought of trent making jungle makes some of us who truly love that

> The thought of trent making jungle makes some of us who truly love that > music cringe. Mostly because trent reznor makes an idiot of himself with > his ridiculous tortured soul posturing and his oh im so gloomy marketing

Yeah, he's an idiot. I saw him on the first Lollipop tour and he blew everyone away. I thought he was gonna revolutionize music, never happened imo. He wasn't all that cheesey at that show, but then his next tour (downward spiral)he's destroying keyboards (ala 70's KISS and their guitars) every two minutes or so. The whole Alice Cooper/Kiss things has been done already Trent. Ok, i am getting off topic. I guess I could let Gonzi do the talking for me on this one.

Gonzi said:

quoted 6 lines Basically yeah since richards been doing breakbeat tracks since 1990.

> Basically yeah since richards been doing breakbeat tracks since 1990. > The thought of trent making jungle makes some of us who truly love that > music cringe. Mostly because trent reznor makes an idiot of himself with > his ridiculous tortured soul posturing and his oh im so gloomy marketing > gimmicks. I hate to see the music i'm into (aka plug) being associated > with that and brought down to that level.

Not being too pendantic and RDJ doesn't!? He looked like a right fuk'n prat telling the media that he wrote tracks in his sleep, when he did the media thing for his SAW 2 release. Anyhow that's an aside... the main thing i'm writing about is to ask a simple question? Does the likes of Trent Reznor or David Bowie or U2 or anyone for that matter moving into jungle, dance, whatever territory really affect the way you listen or enjoy an Aphex, Sqpshr or Vibert track!?? I think not!? So what is it with the siege mentality?? Let's face it Aphex, Sqpshr and Vibert are always going to be ahead of the likes of Reznor, Bowie, etc so when the later appropriate some of the sound of the former the former just moves on. Looked at this way its not such a bad thing, and you can stop claiming your an elite member of the boy's own idm club and just get on listening to the music. Regards, John

At 11:21 29/05/97 -0700, you wrote:

quoted 1 line i think the whole argument is pointless and irrelevant.

>i think the whole argument is pointless and irrelevant.

i think some people have trouble stating the simple fact that they think nine inch nails is a heap of shit

quoted 1 line what if you learned that your favorite ever track in the whole world had a

>what if you learned that your favorite ever track in the whole world had a

(gasp)

quoted 1 line preset sound in it?

>preset sound in it?

i know that feeling.. Model 500 - The Passage, nifty use of proteus in there..

quoted 2 lines is Pump Up The Volume suddenly a crap track because all the sounds in it can

>is Pump Up The Volume suddenly a crap track because all the sounds in it can >be found on any one of a dozen sample CDs?

or is it good because it was made in 1987?

quoted 1 line it ain't the sample, it's what you do with it.

>it ain't the sample, it's what you do with it.

i think there can be no argument that original sounds are a better idea than old samples. unless of course your name is Chuck D cheerio! np - jazz carnival (space jazz global communication mix) - azymuth np - sam and valley cd (be open minded rephlex listeners..................................)