IDM Mailing Archive

1997-03-18 11:10Black Dog DroidHi Greg, I take the unusual step of hassling you in here, because the faxes and phone call

From:: Black Dog Droid <zoot@sparta.dogsquad.com>
To:: <greg@warp-net.com>
Date:: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:10:59 +0000 (GMT)
Subject:: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

Hi Greg, I take the unusual step of hassling you in here, because the faxes and phone calls we've sent warp have obviously been ignored. I'm still having to borrow money from my friends (yes i do have some) to live on. Shitting on me in the first place (cross collateralisation) was bad enough, but march is now nearly over, & still my royalties haven't arrived. No money for food, rent, drugs, psychiatric help, or anything for over six months now. I know there is no love lost between us these days, but i delivered that album (MFA) in good faith, and I expect you to cough up likewise. We know it sold, so what's the problem?? I'm *not* an ogre. If you can't afford to pay it all, a simple explanation would be good enough, rather than leaving me to languish in the poo, like you have done. Attempting to bancrupt an artist who has delivered 3 (fine) albums to your label just isn't the mark of a gentleman. Here, or email...but please... RSVP -- + . /\___/\ . * | < The Black Dog > | + * . . * . . * (. .) + | | . * . * + ___ooO__\-/__Ooo___ | | + + + + . /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ | Dogma >> | http://www.feedback.com/tbd/ * 3-5-3 * (Dis)information > | tbd@feedback.com

1997-03-18 12:18g.On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:10:59 +0000 (GMT), you wrote: >Hi Greg, > >I take the unusual step

From:: g. <greg@warp-net.com>
To:: Black Dog Droid <zoot@sparta.dogsquad.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:18:59 GMT
Subject:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!
Reply to:: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:10:59 +0000 (GMT), you wrote:

quoted 24 lines Hi Greg,

>Hi Greg, > >I take the unusual step of hassling you in here, because >the faxes and phone calls we've sent warp have obviously >been ignored. I'm still having to borrow money from my >friends (yes i do have some) to live on. > >Shitting on me in the first place (cross collateralisation) >was bad enough, but march is now nearly over, & still my >royalties haven't arrived. No money for food, rent, drugs, >psychiatric help, or anything for over six months now. > >I know there is no love lost between us these days, >but i delivered that album (MFA) in good faith, and >I expect you to cough up likewise. We know it sold, >so what's the problem?? > >I'm *not* an ogre. If you can't afford to pay it all, >a simple explanation would be good enough, rather than >leaving me to languish in the poo, like you have done. > >Attempting to bancrupt an artist who has delivered 3 >(fine) albums to your label just isn't the mark of a >gentleman.

ken, nobody's attempting to bankrupt anyone - you'll receive your royalty statement when everyone else does, as you always have, in a couple of weeks. if there is a problem speak to rob. g.

1997-03-18 12:26Ravis1---------- > From: Black Dog Droid <zoot@sparta.dogsquad.com> > Hi Greg, > > I take the un

From:: Ravis1 <ravis1@cris.com>
To:: Intelligent Dance Music <idm@hyperreal.com>, Black Dog Droid <zoot@sparta.dogsquad.com>
Date:: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:26:16 -0600
Subject:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

----------

quoted 1 line From: Black Dog Droid <zoot@sparta.dogsquad.com>

> From: Black Dog Droid <zoot@sparta.dogsquad.com>

quoted 7 lines Hi Greg,

quoted 5 lines Attempting to bancrupt an artist who has delivered 3

> > Attempting to bancrupt an artist who has delivered 3 > (fine) albums to your label just isn't the mark of a > gentleman. >

I say we boycott Warp. That's some real shitty treatment. Sounds like a label that knows how to sell out. _ / \ /\ /__/ \ / \ \ / \AVIS \\\\ ravis1@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ravis1/

1997-03-18 13:37g.caution. this message assumes you are a humorless american. On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:26:16 -

From:: g. <greg@warp-net.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:37:02 GMT
Subject:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

caution. this message assumes you are a humorless american. On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:26:16 -0600, you wrote:

quoted 6 lines Attempting to bancrupt an artist who has delivered 3

>> Attempting to bancrupt an artist who has delivered 3 >> (fine) albums to your label just isn't the mark of a >> gentleman. >> > >I say we boycott Warp.

that'll earn our artists loads of money :)

quoted 2 lines That's some real shitty treatment. Sounds like a

>That's some real shitty treatment. Sounds like a >label that knows how to sell out.

not quite sure what alleged non-payment of royalties has to do with selling out but there you go. non-payment is usually a small label thing. we are unfeasably scrupilously fair with royalties. period. it really hurt me when ken suggested otherwise. ken will be paid what he is owed. so what? g.

1997-03-19 10:29Black Dog DroidDear Ravis1, > I say we boycott Warp. no please, don't do that. It won't solve anything. T

From:: Black Dog Droid <zoot@sparta.dogsquad.com>
To:: Ravis1 <ravis1@cris.com>
Date:: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:29:46 +0000 (GMT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Rendering
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

Dear Ravis1, > I say we boycott Warp. no please, don't do that. It won't solve anything. That wasn't my intention, at all. I'm still very proud of the time that I spent on warp, and their back catalogue on it's own, justifies them being an integral part of the scene forever. -- + . /\___/\ . * | < The Black Dog > | + * . . * . . * (. .) + | | . * . * + ___ooO__\-/__Ooo___ | | + + + + . /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ | Dogma >> | http://www.feedback.com/tbd/ * 3-5-3 * (Dis)information > | tbd@feedback.com

1997-03-18 15:10Chris FaheyTo Moshe at the deli: I went into your deli the other day and you didn't give me all my ch

From:: Chris Fahey <chris@wanderlust.com>
To:: 'IDM' <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:10:22 -0500
Subject:: RE: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

To Moshe at the deli: I went into your deli the other day and you didn't give me all my change. I gave you a ten and you only gave me change for a five. You better get your shit together. You can't treat your loyal bagel-eating customers this way. To Mike my ex-roomate: You still owe me $75 from the last month's rent in aug 92. Anyone on this list who wants to move in with Mike McDonald of Brooklyn NY, I don't recommend it. To Martin with whom I had vindaloo the other night: I paid Sam the $5 extra he paid for our dinner the other night. This included the $2.50 from me AND from you. I think everyone should know that you still havent repaid me the $2.50 that was your share. -Chris Fahey (HumOUrless American) I hope you all get the point...

quoted 9 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: a few people > > >> Attempting to bancrupt an artist who has delivered 3 > >> (fine) albums to your label just isn't the mark of a > >> gentleman. > >>I say we boycott Warp. > Etc... >

1997-03-18 18:58tweibrecht@juno.comOn Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:37:02 GMT greg@warp-net.com (g.) writes: >caution. this message ass

From:: <tweibrecht@juno.com>
To:: <greg@warp-net.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:58:46 PST
Subject:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:37:02 GMT greg@warp-net.com (g.) writes:

quoted 26 lines caution. this message assumes you are a humorless american.

>caution. this message assumes you are a humorless american. > >On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:26:16 -0600, you wrote: > >>> Attempting to bancrupt an artist who has delivered 3=20 >>> (fine) albums to your label just isn't the mark of a >>> gentleman.=20 >>>=20 >> >>I say we boycott Warp. =20 > >that'll earn our artists loads of money :) > >>That's some real shitty treatment. Sounds like a >>label that knows how to sell out. > >not quite sure what alleged non-payment of royalties has to do with >selling out but there you go. non-payment is usually a small label >thing. > >we are unfeasably scrupilously fair with royalties. period. it really >hurt me when ken suggested otherwise. ken will be paid what he is >owed. so what? > >g. >

i hope this statement can be verified by an independent audit..... tom w np: soundz of the asian underground

1997-03-18 20:15Adam J Weitzmantweibrecht@juno.com wrote: > On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:13:57 GMT greg@warp-net.com (g.) write

From:: Adam J Weitzman <weitzman@individual.com>
To:: <tweibrecht@juno.com>
Cc:: <greg@warp-net.com>, <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:15:44 -0500
Subject:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

tweibrecht@juno.com wrote:

quoted 9 lines On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:13:57 GMT greg@warp-net.com (g.) writes:

> On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:13:57 GMT greg@warp-net.com (g.) writes: > >>i hope this statement can be verified by an independent audit..... > >of course. but what has it got to do with you? :) > because: > > 1.) u were the one that made the public pronouncement > 2.) ive represented enough artists that have gotten screwed outta > royalties due to "shoddy" accounting practices perpetrated by > record labels...

I beg to differ here. Warp is accountable to no one except Ken in this matter. Neither you nor I are in such a position. While I'd prefer that Warp and Ken work this out in private, just because the argument surfaced here doesn't mean that we have any more of a right to confirmation of how well one person's versions of the "facts" match up against the other, than we have with any other argument on this list. In my mind, all that's happening is that two people I respect are having a public disagreement. I have no basis for determining who is more right, and I suspect that they both are to some degree. If Ken continues to feel like he's been screwed, I'm sure he'll say so. If Greg continues to feel indignant that Warp has been wrongly slagged, I'm sure he'll say so too. But to suggest that the members of this list "deserve" anything more than that is rather self-righteous, IMHO. -- Adam J Weitzman "Getting [your computer] to work is no more Individual, Inc. difficult than building a nuclear reactor weitzman@individual.com from wristwatch parts using only your teeth." http://www.individual.com - Dave Barry

1997-03-18 20:57Gonzi (Fresh)> we are unfeasably scrupilously fair with royalties. period. it really > hurt me when ken

From:: Gonzi (Fresh) <fresh@linkonline.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:57:54 -0800
Subject:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

quoted 3 lines we are unfeasably scrupilously fair with royalties. period. it really

> we are unfeasably scrupilously fair with royalties. period. it really > hurt me when ken suggested otherwise. ken will be paid what he is > owed. so what?

I think what Ken is trying to say is..... SHOW ME THE MONEY! (oh yes, I just had to say it. I'm sure you're all fucking sick of it as well.) Fresh.

1997-03-18 22:17tweibrecht@juno.comOn Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:13:57 GMT greg@warp-net.com (g.) writes: >On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:58

From:: <tweibrecht@juno.com>
To:: <greg@warp-net.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 14:17:37 PST
Subject:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:13:57 GMT greg@warp-net.com (g.) writes:

quoted 9 lines On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:58:46 PST, you wrote:

>On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:58:46 PST, you wrote: > > >>i hope this statement can be verified by an independent audit..... > >of course. but what has it got to do with you? :) > >g. >

because: 1.) u were the one that made the public pronouncement 2.) ive represented enough artists that have gotten screwed outta royalties due to "shoddy" accounting practices perpetrated by record labels... tom w np: panasonic

1997-03-19 01:16tweibrecht@juno.comOn Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:15:44 -0500 Adam J Weitzman <weitzman@individual.com> writes: >twei

From:: <tweibrecht@juno.com>
To:: <weitzman@individual.com>
Cc:: <tweibrecht@juno.com>, <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:16:48 PST
Subject:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:15:44 -0500 Adam J Weitzman <weitzman@individual.com> writes:

quoted 31 lines tweibrecht@juno.com wrote:

>tweibrecht@juno.com wrote: >> On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:13:57 GMT greg@warp-net.com (g.) writes: >> >>i hope this statement can be verified by an independent audit..... >> >of course. but what has it got to do with you? :) >> because: >> >> 1.) u were the one that made the public pronouncement >> 2.) ive represented enough artists that have gotten screwed outta >> royalties due to "shoddy" accounting practices perpetrated by >> record labels... > >I beg to differ here. > >Warp is accountable to no one except Ken in this matter. Neither you >nor I are in such a position. While I'd prefer that Warp and Ken work >this out in private, just because the argument surfaced here doesn't >mean that we have any more of a right to confirmation of how well one >person's versions of the "facts" match up against the other, than we >have with any other argument on this list. > >In my mind, all that's happening is that two people I respect are >having >a public disagreement. I have no basis for determining who is more >right, and I suspect that they both are to some degree. If Ken >continues to feel like he's been screwed, I'm sure he'll say so. If >Greg continues to feel indignant that Warp has been wrongly slagged, >I'm >sure he'll say so too. But to suggest that the members of this list >"deserve" anything more than that is rather self-righteous, IMHO. > >--

though i tend to agree with everything u say, the fact that it was brought into the public forum makes it, imo, fair game...the "facts", as presented, are classic "he said, she said"... the label, in this case, said that they would pay royalties....my initial question was whether or not these can independently audited...the answer was yes, but this was none of my business...fine...but as someone who has experience in this realm, i can tell you that is rarely the case...audit practices at record labels are poor at best...that is not to say that in this case they may be perfectly acceptable...i personally have no interest in this particular case, but feel obligated to state that in most of these disputes, the artist is the one who gets screwed...sorry to take your time... tom w

1997-03-18 23:50Allert Aalders>said that they would pay royalties....my initial question was whether or >not these can i

From:: Allert Aalders <allert@knoware.nl>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 00:50:23 +0100
Subject:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

quoted 5 lines said that they would pay royalties....my initial question was whether or

>said that they would pay royalties....my initial question was whether or >not these can independently audited...the answer was yes, but this was >none of my business...fine...but as someone who has experience in this >realm, i can tell you that is rarely the case...audit practices at >record labels are poor at best...

True. In general, the artist has to pay the accountant's fees. The record company has to pay the accountant's fees if said accountant finds a difference of more than 5% in some cases 10 %. So you normally do not take the risk, because you can't afford an accountant. So they have every possibility to fuck you over. (I'm not saying this is the case with Warp. It is just a clause that pops up in every contract I have seen thusfar.)

quoted 2 lines disputes, the artist is the one who gets screwed...sorry to take your

>disputes, the artist is the one who gets screwed...sorry to take your >time...

Will the artist who has ever seen an entirely correct royalty statement raise his/her hand now ? No ? Thought So. Do not kid yourself. Very often there is no difference between a Major or an Indie. On with my life... There's an MPC 2000 waiting (yes, I am a happy person...) Bye, Allert -- "No corporation will ever pay a creator enough to sue them succesfully" -Dave Sim, creator of Cerebus Allert Aalders - Big Time Concepts - allert@knoware.nl - KoX

1997-03-19 01:44tweibrecht@juno.comtime out here...i never questioned anyONE's honesty or integrity, nor did i say anything r

From:: <tweibrecht@juno.com>
To:: <weitzman@individual.com>
Cc:: <chris@wanderlust.com>, <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:44:48 PST
Subject:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

time out here...i never questioned anyONE's honesty or integrity, nor did i say anything related to trust...as i stated in an earlier post, this is a contractual issue...assuming its a standard contract, any party can request an independent audit of the financial arrangements involved...if party b states that they are "...unfeasably scrupilously fair with royalties..." , then they should be able to prove it to party a...not to this list or anyone else...that is not a judgement on anyone or any institution involved...and i think it is of greater significance than whether or not i paid u the $ 5.00 i owed u....my interest in this issue began with the word "fair"...that is a value judgement, not a financial one...if u lent me $ 5.00, and i say the return on investment is really only a "fair" $ 3.00, what would u say?...and as i said, experience proves that the artist gets screwed... On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:00:06 -0500 Adam J Weitzman <weitzman@individual.com> writes:

quoted 71 lines Chris Fahey wrote:

>Chris Fahey wrote: >> >> He never asked for facts/proof with any greater degree of >> self-righteousness than anyone else has when they ask for >facts/proof >> about any other list topic. He never claimed a "right" to anything, >nor >> that he or anyone else on the list "deserved" anything. Why do you >> perceive that he has? > >Tom suggested that unless Warp could produce an independent audit of >their books, that Greg's honesty could be called into question, viz: > >> > >>i hope this statement can be verified by an independent >audit..... > >and suggested that IDM-ers need not trust him unless he does. This >suggests in turn that for us to ever trust him again, we "deserve" to >see the results of such an audit. I'm using the word a little more >loosely than I want to, but I can't think of a better one for this >purpose. Perhaps it would be better to say that Tom thinks Greg >"owes" >it to us all. > >If I say that you never paid me for something, and you say you did, >and >someone else on the list said, "I hope you can back that up by showing >us your bank statement," would you do it? I don't think so. I think >that showing it to me should be plenty, and if I have any honor at >all, >I would admit my mistake publicly, and if I didn't then you could show >me up publicly; either way, the issue gets resolved without an >"independent audit." > >> He's only saying that if you're going to publicly dis someone, it is >in >> everyones best interest to back it up, otherwise everyone will reach >the >> same conclusion that you and I have - that they are probably both >wrong. >> What's wrong with pointing that out to the person who made the issue >> public in the first place? > >Actually, it was Ken who made the issue public. Greg didn't dis >anyone; >he only said that Warp was above board and that Ken would get paid on >time. My opinion is that just because Ken decided to make this public >shouldn't open Warp up to any more scrutiny than you or I would >undergo >in the same circumstances. They're under no more obligation to reveal >their numbers to you or me than they are to reveal them to the next >guy >that walks by the office or the next NME reporter who calls. He owes >Ken an answer, for sure, but that's really it. > >If Ken were to sue, then surely Warp's books would be scrutinized as a >matter of law. But the IDM mailing list is not a court of law, and we >are not judges. Like I said in my earlier post, if Ken or Greg feel >that something is not right, I'm sure they'll speak up and we'll know >about it. In the meantime, you and I are perfectly capable of >deciding >for ourselves whom we believe more in the absence of any more >information. > >-- >Adam J Weitzman "Getting [your computer] to work is no more >Individual, Inc. difficult than building a nuclear reactor >weitzman@individual.com from wristwatch parts using only your >teeth." >http://www.individual.com - Dave Barry >

1997-03-19 23:14tweibrecht@juno.comnot to draw out this thread, but, yes, my experience leads me to question an entity that s

From:: <tweibrecht@juno.com>
To:: <weitzman@individual.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 15:14:37 PST
Subject:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

not to draw out this thread, but, yes, my experience leads me to question an entity that says, "we are unfeasably scrupilously fair with royalty payments". this is a simple question of dollars and cents: you sell so many albums, u get so much in royalties...not someone's perception of what "fair" may be...what is fair may not be correct... i apologize to the representative of warp if i appeared to be questioning his personal integrity...i do not...but i do question the integrity of the company he represents...obviously, if they were scrupilous with their royalty payments, the artist in question would not have complained...lets get back to tunes... np: floyd - money On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:31:55 -0500 Adam J Weitzman <weitzman@individual.com> writes:

quoted 64 lines tweibrecht@juno.com wrote:

>tweibrecht@juno.com wrote: >> >> time out here...i never questioned anyONE's honesty or integrity, >nor >> did i say anything related to trust. > >When you say to someone, "I hope you can prove what you're saying," in >front of a group, then you're calling their integrity into question. >If >he couldn't prove it, he wouldn't say it, or he's a liar. Whether you >meant to or not, it certainly reads like you did. > >> assuming its a standard contract, any party can >> request an independent audit of the financial arrangements >> involved...if party b states that they are "...unfeasably >scrupilously >> fair with royalties..." , then they should be able to prove it to >party >> a...not to this list or anyone else > >If that's the case, then why did you even bring it up on IDM? If Ken >can just say "show me the books," then why doesn't he just do so and >get >it over with? (And why didn't you just counsel him to do so in >private?) You have to admit that it seemed like you were asking Greg >to >prove to the list that Warp is a fair company, because what you're >explaining here is that you were asking him (in front of the list) on >Ken's behalf to prove it to Ken, which is very hard to read from what >you wrote. > >> and i think it is of greater significance than >> whether or not i paid u the $ 5.00 i owed u > >To Ken, maybe, but not to you or me. > >> my interest in this issue began with the word "fair" > >What is the difference between asking publicly, "Can Warp prove that >it >is a fair company?" and "Can Tom prove that he is a fair CD buyer?" >I'm >missing it... > >> and as i said, experience proves that the artist gets screwed... > >So you tend to believe the artist in these disputes, which is fine; >that's your prerogative. > >If you never meant to call Greg's integrity into question, then my >whole >second post to Chris and you is moot. But then I have to take issue >with the language and method you used, as it certainly led me to >believe >that that was, in fact, what you were doing. Surely you can see how I >came to my conclusion. > >-- >Adam J Weitzman "Getting [your computer] to work is no more >Individual, Inc. difficult than building a nuclear reactor >weitzman@individual.com from wristwatch parts using only your >teeth." >http://www.individual.com - Dave Barry >

1997-03-20 03:23Ninja Tune/Discreet>not to draw out this thread, but, yes, my experience leads me to question >an entity that

From:: Ninja Tune/Discreet <discreet@generation.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 22:23:01 -0500
Subject:: Re: (idm) Render Unto Caesar!

quoted 5 lines not to draw out this thread, but, yes, my experience leads me to question

>not to draw out this thread, but, yes, my experience leads me to question >an entity that says, "we are unfeasably scrupilously fair with royalty >payments". this is a simple question of dollars and cents: you sell so >many albums, u get so much in royalties...not someone's perception of >what "fair" may be...what is fair may not be correct

If only it were so easy. A lot more goes into figuring out what is owed on royalties than that. Promotion costs, pressing, packaging, advertising, and sometimes more (ie. telephone, etc...) have to come out before the royalty payment is figured out. It is never completly accurate and yes sometimes people disagree. All this should be understood before contracts are signed so that no suprises come later. I've worked in this business for many years and have come across/heard about a fair share of crooks. Warp has never been one that's come up in conversation. See Ya Ninja Jeff

(idm) Render Unto Caesar!