IDM Mailing Archive

Just because you're all doing it ... Top 10 albums: 1) Seefeel - CH-VOX 2) Scala - Beauty Nowhere 3) Disjecta - Clean Pit & Lid 4) Leo Anibaldi - Void 5) Spooky - Found Sound 6) Plug - Drum 'n bass for papa 7) Freeform - Prowl 8) Orbital - Insides 9) Underworld - second toughest in the infants 10) Aphex Twin - Richard D James Top 10 cd-single/12": 1) JEGA - pHLAX op Skam 2) Locust - No-one in the world 3) Scala - Lips & heaven 4) Autocreation - Caught short 5) Tortoise - DJED : Bruise Blood mix by UNKLE 6) Freeform - free ep op Skam 6) Gescom - Key Nell remixes op Warp 8) Wishmountain - Video 9) Underworld - dark tracks op pearl girl ep (niet die lager lager) 10) Aphex Twin - Boy/girl ep Best Original Newbie: JEGA Honourable mentions: Tortoise, Meat Beat Manifesto's subliminal sandwich, LFO's Advance, Scanner kissing Compulsion, Silvania remixed by Locust Man van het jaar: Christopher Vrouw van het jaar: Mira Calix Concerten van het jaar: 1) Spooky - 28 maart - Paradiso 5) Warp Night in the Paradiso met Autechre, B12 en Freeform Teleurstelling van het jaar: breek me de bek niet open wishing you all the best, Helen - millions now living will never die

On 22 Dec 1996, Helen Adriaens wrote:

quoted 1 line Vrouw van het jaar: Mira Calix

> Vrouw van het jaar: Mira Calix

Correccion. La chica del ano: Helen. ;} acihc. .`--). o o ._) christopher miller ==;' evil@digital.net ==' '

Hi all, Does anyone have a new number for No U Turn records in London? The number I've got is 011-44-81-746-0998 I've been trying to call with no luck for a few days and just figured it was just a long distance block at work...I just called from home and the number was disconnected. I really need this number ASAP, I'm trying to hook a friend up who's going to the UK tomorrow. Nico and the nut posse are damn good people and I'd really like to warn them that one of my crazy friends is going to be knocking on their door in a few days! Also, if anyone could e-mail me with some happenings, in or around London, in the next two weeks, I'd be greatful. thanks, brock ps. My friends name is Heather, she's 21, cute and looking for love in London! Watch out ;-)

quoted 3 lines what involvement did Cronenberg have with Come To Daddy? also, the film

>what involvement did Cronenberg have with Come To Daddy? also, the film >for Naked Lunch was an insult to Burrough's masterpiece and Crash was >just an abortion of a movie.

While I'll give you the Crash statement, Naked Lunch the film, as a self-contained film (ie removing all relation to Burroughs) was a damn fine flick. Totally off the deep end in a far more immediately aesthetically pleasing way than the novel (granted, this may be the basis for your statement, but you didn't articulate much). And for the record, much of the material came from Junkie, not Naked Lunch proper. BTW Wells, not to be insulting at all, but you bitch far too much. I agree with your bitchings 100% of the time so far, but I don't see much point to just shouting out how much Goldie sucks every time his name comes up (and Digital was surprisingly good; I would give it a listen. Totally different from the commercial diva pap that made him famous/"important" - basically really mechanical breaks (think maybe Photek's Third Sequence, but less blatantly scifi and more large-machines-in-a-small-room) and the No-U-Turn bass sound done in an actually bearable way. I won't go into how worthless and pretentious the entirety of the No-U-Turn roster is at the moment, but this is the way you'd think it sounds from some of the hype... Dark, but not murderously dark, more mechanically dark.) Parting shot: No-U-Turn is "dark" music for people who have no idea what "dark" music actually sounds like. --- the humble abbott arthur purvis set his hand hereto

Arthur B. Purvis wrote:

quoted 1 line BTW Wells, not to be insulting at all, but you bitch far too much.

> BTW Wells, not to be insulting at all, but you bitch far too much.

*nod*. Wells' posts are asymptotically approaching "content-free" IMHO.

quoted 3 lines Parting shot:

> Parting shot: > No-U-Turn is "dark" music for people who have no idea what "dark" music > actually sounds like.

Now them's fightin' words! (-: So you think "Freek Funk" is "shit" and now you're slagging No-U-Turn. Please enlighten me (past listener to Lustmord, oodles of In Slaughter Natives and other plenty-ass "dark" Industrial stuff) what "dark" music actually sounds like. And tell us what you *do* love so I can give it a good retaliatory slagging. Hehe (-: Merry what's-left-of-Christmas, - Greg

quoted 9 lines Parting shot:

> > Parting shot: > > No-U-Turn is "dark" music for people who have no idea what "dark" music > > actually sounds like. > > Now them's fightin' words! (-: So you think "Freek Funk" is "shit" and now > you're slagging No-U-Turn. Please enlighten me (past listener to Lustmord, > oodles of In Slaughter Natives and other plenty-ass "dark" Industrial stuff) > what "dark" music actually sounds like. And tell us what you *do* love so > I can give it a good retaliatory slagging. Hehe (-:

What I've heard of ISN has been kind of laughable, but I haven't heard much. Lustmord I'll give you - do you honestly think that No-U-Turn is as "dark" (for the record, I hate calling music "dark," but it seems to get the point across) as Heresy, however? What I do like that's IDM applicable (or not), in no real order: Autechre. 1/2 of Aphex (maybe less, but what I like, I like a lot). Godflesh/Techno Animal/Sidewinder/Solaris/Final. Mouse on Mars. Stravinsky. Scorn. Skinny Puppy - Last Rights only really, but it's a top 10 of all time. Sunny Day Real Estate. Nirvana. Pearl Jam. Coil. Current 93. Nurse with Wound. Einsturzende Neubauten (oodles). Aube. Can. The Hafler Trio. The Gate. John Fahey. Illusion of Safety. 0/Panasonic. Fushitsusha/Nijiumu. Many Siltbreeze records bands. Underworld. New Kingdom. Black Moon (oodles). Cypress Hill. DJ Krush. DJ Shadow. Slotek. Prince Charming. Dr. Israel. The rest of the Wordsound records, except Prince Paul's Psychoanalysis and the Laswell/Style Scott. Muslimgauze. My Bloody Valentine (oodles). Codeine. Photek. Beastie Boys. Rage Against the Machine. US Maple. Flying Luttenbachers. Zeni Geva. Ghost. Cosmic Invention. Third Eye Foundation. Hood. Flying Saucer Attack. John Coltrane. Cecil Taylor (only the crazy stuff though). Bartok. Barber. Smetena. Seefeel. etc. etc. etc. I keep a review archive at http://www.princeton.edu/~abpurvis/ if you're interested - I think about 50 long reviews up there now. Doesn't give much of an overview per se of what I like, however, but it'll give you something to rag on I'm sure (laugh). 24 minutes in Christmas left over here... --- the humble abbott arthur purvis set his hand hereto

Arthur B. Purvis wrote:

quoted 4 lines I won't go into

> I won't go into > how worthless and pretentious the entirety of the No-U-Turn roster is at > the moment, but this is the way you'd think it sounds from some of the > hype... Dark, but not murderously dark, more mechanically dark.

and

quoted 3 lines Parting shot:

> Parting shot: > No-U-Turn is "dark" music for people who have no idea what "dark" music > actually sounds like.

hahaha! As a member of the No-U-Turn crew, I WILL respond to this one. Unfortunately, it will have to wait until tomorrow as I'm on my way out the door to do the 'family' thing. :-( Plus, I've got tons of music to talk about, that I've been sitting on for the last few weeks, including the new Saigon LP, which is fucking amazing. peace, brock.

quoted 7 lines Parting shot:

> > Parting shot: > > No-U-Turn is "dark" music for people who have no idea what "dark" music > > actually sounds like. > > hahaha! > > As a member of the No-U-Turn crew, I WILL respond to this one.

Well, I haven't heard all of it, but I've heard quite a bit (Torque + some random 12"s) and all of it's been pretty terrible. The same style distorted, badly produced bass sound, the same 2step badly produced drums, and some lame atmospherics. And I wanted to like it so badly - I mean, dark drum and bass; this is an idea that inherently appeals to me (as I'm sure it does to many of you, I won't explain any further). Torque was easily the biggest letdown of the year. However, it probably wouldn't bug me half as much if No-U-Turn didn't get all the credit for "dark drum and bass" while numerous people are out there producing stuff 10x as good (Panacea, Godflesh, PCM, Downpour, to name some), 10x as original/interesting, and no one listens, because of the hype (For the record, I regard "hype" as just as much an evil as MTV. The only difference is the audience - MTV gets "the masses" (who only exist in the minds of the "hip") while hype (The Wire, the IDM list, the Voice, Simon Reynolds, DJs, art students, etc) gets "the hip." They're both right about 10% of the time. Maybe MTV is a little better. Both ignore anything that doesn't fit their image or their marketing agenda until 5 years later when it's been dumbed down or "artified," and both absolutely refuse to deal with each other in any rational way. Both also absolutely refuse to actively seek out anything new and/or interesting, instead repeating the same old crap ad infinitum.)

quoted 7 lines Parting shot:

>>> Parting shot: >>> No-U-Turn is "dark" music for people who have no idea what "dark" music >>> actually sounds like. > > Well, I haven't heard all of it, but I've heard quite a bit (Torque + some > random 12"s) and all of it's been pretty terrible. The same style > distorted, badly produced bass sound, the same 2-step badly produced

"Badly produced"! Spare me ... Compared to, say Download, most everything discussed on this list is "badly produced" ...

quoted 3 lines However, it probably wouldn't bug me half as much if No-U-Turn didn't get

> However, it probably wouldn't bug me half as much if No-U-Turn didn't get > all the credit for "dark drum and bass" while numerous people are out > there producing stuff 10x as good (Panacea, Godflesh, PCM, Downpour,

ROTFL!!! Panacea, the guy who FUCKING SAMPLES NO-U-TURN RECORDS SHAMELESSLY? Hey, I love his stuff too, but let's get real here! Go back a couple of days and read my review of the Position Chrome 19 CD please! Wherein a live jam between Panacea and a few others on Chrome leaves the No-U-Turn samples in intact! As for Downpour, well, I have the David Kristian/Downpour split CD on Dropbeat and I'd file Downpour under "Art Wank Drum N' Bass", sorry dude but I'd rather listen to "Torque" any day of the week. So I have a soft spot for "badly produced" Hoover bass. Bite me.

quoted 9 lines to name some), 10x as original/interesting, and no one listens, because of

> to name some), 10x as original/interesting, and no one listens, because of > the hype (For the record, I regard "hype" as just as much an evil as MTV. > The only difference is the audience - MTV gets "the masses" (who only > exist in the minds of the "hip") while hype (The Wire, the IDM list, the > Voice, Simon Reynolds, DJs, art students, etc) gets "the hip." They're > both right about 10% of the time. Maybe MTV is a little better. > Both ignore anything that doesn't fit their image or their > marketing agenda until 5 years later when it's been dumbed down or > "artified," [...]

Wait, you listed "The IDM list" in the hype/"the hip" list? So you're telling me that, as a member of the IDM list, I'm ignoring anything that doesn't fit my image or my marketing agenda? I OWN PANACEA, NO-U-TURN *AND* DOWNPOUR CD'S HELLLLLLO. (Disclaimer: I read "The Wire" and the IDM list. I could give two shits about Village Voice, Simon Reynolds, what DJs like or "art students".) Besides, someone from Princeton talking about pretentiousness? It is to laugh. np: Luke Slater "Freek Funk" Bah humbug, - Greg

quoted 6 lines Well, I haven't heard all of it, but I've heard quite a bit (Torque + some

> > Well, I haven't heard all of it, but I've heard quite a bit (Torque + some > > random 12"s) and all of it's been pretty terrible. The same style > > distorted, badly produced bass sound, the same 2-step badly produced > > "Badly produced"! Spare me ... Compared to, say Download, most everything > discussed on this list is "badly produced" ...

This is true. It's all straightforward plug in the synths to the tape etc. But then why does No-U-Turn sound so terrible? Autechre/Aphex don't sound terrible.

quoted 6 lines ROTFL!!!

> ROTFL!!! > > Panacea, the guy who FUCKING SAMPLES NO-U-TURN RECORDS SHAMELESSLY? Hey, I > love his stuff too, but let's get real here! Go back a couple of days and read > my review of the Position Chrome 19 CD please! Wherein a live jam between > Panacea and a few others on Chrome leaves the No-U-Turn samples in intact!

I have often wondered who samples whom here. I have noticed that the Nico/Fierce track "Input" is essentially the same track as Panacea's "Stormbringer." But to my (totally unbased) knowledge, Chrome01 came out long before No-U-Turn existed, given that the Techno Animal singles that came POST-Stormbringer have been out for a long ass time and are long out of print. It would seem to me then, that you've got it backwards, but I could have this totally wrong (and thus have never used this argument before now).

quoted 4 lines As for Downpour, well, I have the David Kristian/Downpour split CD on Dropbeat

> As for Downpour, well, I have the David Kristian/Downpour split CD on Dropbeat > and I'd file Downpour under "Art Wank Drum N' Bass", sorry dude but I'd rather > listen to "Torque" any day of the week. So I have a soft spot for "badly > produced" Hoover bass. Bite me.

I though you were perfectly civil in your first post, as was I in my reply. No need to get so testy. I'm curious what you think of Third Eye Foundation if Downpour is "art-wank dnb." (I also wonder what speed the CD is recorded at, because I enjoy my 12" at either, but it sounds a lot more fucked up at 45, speaking of recent threads...) Because TEF is significantly wankier in the sense that I think you're using it, ie pretension wank rather than Greatful Dead wank, than Downpour (and better, but that's besides the point).

quoted 12 lines exist in the minds of the "hip") while hype (The Wire, the IDM list, the

> > exist in the minds of the "hip") while hype (The Wire, the IDM list, the > > Voice, Simon Reynolds, DJs, art students, etc) gets "the hip." They're > > both right about 10% of the time. Maybe MTV is a little better. > > Both ignore anything that doesn't fit their image or their > > marketing agenda until 5 years later when it's been dumbed down or > > "artified," [...] > > Wait, you listed "The IDM list" in the hype/"the hip" list? So you're telling > me that, as a member of the IDM list, I'm ignoring anything that doesn't fit > my image or my marketing agenda? I OWN PANACEA, NO-U-TURN *AND* DOWNPOUR CD'S > HELLLLLLO. (Disclaimer: I read "The Wire" and the IDM list. I could give two > shits about Village Voice, Simon Reynolds, what DJs like or "art students".)

No, I never said that at all. I meant the IDM list metonymically speaking, as a whole - I'm sure you've noticed that certain trends/threads seem to sweep the IDM list (ever time an Aphex/Autechre/Mu-Ziq/etc record comes out, Luke Slater, Panasonic - even better, Musik Aus Strom). I further meant the IDM list as a part of the whole "hype" thing, because in and of itself the IDM list is pretty useful. Here's a good example of what I mean: indie rockers. Indie rockers will praise (the now terrible) June of 44 forever. They will never give two shits about Fushitsusha b/c they don't have the hype. They will never give two shits about Pearl Jam because they were on MTV. Your average Aphex/Autechre listener is the same way - no Chemical Brothers, Prodigy, or No-U-Turn. Maybe a Plug record, or Mu-Ziq, if he/she's feeling brave. Maybe. And certainly no rock or "art-wank." Your average Fushitsusha/Jim O'Rourke fan won't care about any of them, because they aren't "high art." And your average MTV watcher won't even know about any of the above. You are obviously not (and neither is most of the list; after all they took the time to find out and subscribe, right?) your average Aphex/Autechre listener. But I hope you see my point. Another good example: The Wire would never be caught dead writing an article on a band called "Skinny Puppy." Listen to the track Download on Last Rights - lots of CD Skipping, noise, etc. 4 years later or so - The Wire discovers Oval (after their hype at the hands of Tortoise, however) totally ignoring Skinny Puppy. They will always, because it isn't "arty" enough. And, as I think about it, your average IDM listener seems to be taken up with a need to look down on all things "rock" as boring. That's fucking retarded. Sure, 99% of rock is utter shite. So is 99% of techno. You just have to LOOK, and by failing to look

quoted 1 line Besides, someone from Princeton talking about pretentiousness? It is to laugh.

> Besides, someone from Princeton talking about pretentiousness? It is to laugh.

Umm, fuck you, asshole. You don't actually have to suffer through the bullshit; I deal with it on a daily basis, and you have no idea what you're talking about. I can't believe anyone would be so low as to criticize my fucking university. --- the humble abbott arthur purvis set his hand hereto

Arthur B. Purvis wrote:

quoted 8 lines I have often wondered who samples whom here. I have noticed that the

> I have often wondered who samples whom here. I have noticed that the > Nico/Fierce track "Input" is essentially the same track as Panacea's > "Stormbringer." But to my (totally unbased) knowledge, Chrome01 came out > long before No-U-Turn existed, given that the Techno Animal singles that > came POST-Stormbringer have been out for a long ass time and are long out > of print. > It would seem to me then, that you've got it backwards, but I could have > this totally wrong (and thus have never used this argument before now).

ROTFL some more... Your 'knowledge' of these labels is a little bassakwards. No U Turn was started in 1992. The first Chrome release was 1996. AFAIK, the first Panacea 12", Chrome 6, was put out in 1997. The EP with 'Stormbringer' was Chrome 7. --------- There is a very interesting story involving nico's trip to the Force-Inc HQ in Germany to deliver a remix he and Ed Rush were commissioned to do of Mike Ink's 'Love-Inc' which was never released and later reworked and became 'torque', and his subsequent conversations with them about the blatant sampling of many of his tracks by panacea. I don't have the time or energy to tell the whole thing right now, but rest assured that Nico was the one who started it, not Panacea. In fact, I remember reading a interview with Panacea where he cited his main influences as Nico and Autechre. ---------- On a side note, I'm currently working on the No U Turn site and will post a full discography in the next few days. I hope this has been constructive! word to the mothership, brock ps. And yes I do love chrome too! pps. A very complete Force-Inc discography is at http://members.aol.com/multipara/fimdisc.html

quoted 10 lines Nico/Fierce track "Input" is essentially the same track as Panacea's

> > Nico/Fierce track "Input" is essentially the same track as Panacea's > > "Stormbringer." But to my (totally unbased) knowledge, Chrome01 came out > > long before No-U-Turn existed, given that the Techno Animal singles that > > came POST-Stormbringer have been out for a long ass time and are long out > > of print. > > It would seem to me then, that you've got it backwards, but I could have > > this totally wrong (and thus have never used this argument before now). > > ROTFL some more... > Your 'knowledge' of these labels is a little bassakwards.

As I said, I had absolutely no basis/research for my statements, which is why I only mentioned this in the form of a question.

quoted 2 lines AFAIK, the first Panacea 12", Chrome 6, was put out in 1997.

> AFAIK, the first Panacea 12", Chrome 6, was put out in 1997. > The EP with 'Stormbringer' was Chrome 7.

I was pretty certain Stormbringer was the first Panacea 12".

quoted 10 lines There is a very interesting story involving nico's trip to the Force-Inc

> There is a very interesting story involving nico's trip to the Force-Inc > HQ in Germany to deliver a remix he and Ed Rush were commissioned to do > of Mike Ink's 'Love-Inc' which was never released and later reworked and > became 'torque', and his subsequent conversations with them about the > blatant sampling of many of his tracks by panacea. > I don't have the time or energy to tell the whole thing right now, but > rest assured that Nico was the one who started it, not Panacea. > > In fact, I remember reading a interview with Panacea where he cited his > main influences as Nico and Autechre.

Well, I never claimed Panacea started anything, but thanks for the info (though I still think Stormbringer is far better than Input, unfortunately, and it's one of my least favorite Panacea tracks). And if you could, I'd like to hear the stories... I'm always up for embarassing anecdotes.

Arthur B. Purvis wrote:

quoted 6 lines Another good example: The Wire would never be caught dead writing an

> Another good example: The Wire would never be caught dead writing an > article on a band called "Skinny Puppy." Listen to the track Download on > Last Rights - lots of CD Skipping, noise, etc. 4 years later or so - The > Wire discovers Oval (after their hype at the hands of Tortoise, however) > totally ignoring Skinny Puppy. They will always, because it isn't "arty" > enough.

I have to 'defend' The Wire, as I think it's one of very few magazines who actually has something interesting to say about music (and I really couldn't care less if street-cred boys think it's "arty" or whatever else is the hip ugly word of the moment (see, I'm new on the list but already I got the hang of this nasty mix of sarcasm and bitter irony that so many of the young people seem to like these days)). First of all, I think you are putting too much of an emphasis on The Wire's conscious approach to picking out music you think is hype. A trivial fact: A magazine that has a certain amount of circulation (number of copies being printed) and a semi-large audience have to 'hype' something, in the sense that it's unavoidable that their (The Wire's) influence will rub off on their readers. The Wire puts Alec Empire on their cover, and of course some kind of attention will be paid to this guy (deservedly or undeservedly)...if not there wouldn't be any point in running a magazine, right? Enter discourse. So Arthur Purvis decides to start a magazine, and his first ambition is to "not print/review any of the artsy fartsy stuff featured in The Wire." Fine. Purvis decides to slag off all No U Turn releases in his first issue. Fine. But don't think you can avoid the hype, because you are yourself creating it ("I hate Purvis' magazine because he doesn't think No U Turn is 'arty' enough. And he thinks Panacea came before No U Turn, and doesn't pay enough respect to the real innovators."). The hype is the unavoidable consequence of the media world (and the fact that there aren't one paper for every individual on earth), and the only way you can counter it is to always keep your eyes and ears open to alternative sources, *and* make sure you tell The Wire about it if you think they suck in one way or the other. Sure, I *love* The Wire, but that doesn't mean I don't look around elsewhere (the net, friends, whatever). And it certainly doesn't mean I agree with everything they say. To the issue of The Wire being too arty: What the hell does word "arty" mean anyway? It's being dropped everywhere, but would you care to explain why *you* think The Wire chose Oval instead of Skinny Puppy to generate the CD-skipping hype (BTW, I like Oval quite a bit)? Your claim has a sort of semi-paranoid ring to it (although I'm sure you didn't mean for it to sound paranoid), and I'm curious as to what you might think the The Wire's motives are/were. Perhaps Skinny Puppys version of CD-skipping just wasn't to be liked (I haven't heard the track(s) you're refering to -- sorry), and Oval are simply doing it 'better' (whatever that means)? Second, what I really like (and hate when it's about something I like ;) about The Wire is that although they might put Artist X on the cover one month, or make a two-page feature on Artist Y the next, you can never rest assured that this artist might not be dogged in the next couple of issues. The reviewers/writers sometimes seem completely independent of the "overall feel" of the magazine (what the magazine feels like as a whole), which is a very rare, but attractive, phenomenon. Besides, your opinions on The Wire are just as stereotyped as the stereotypes you claim The Wire are presenting, if you know what I mean. Come on...Alec Empire "arty"? Plaid "arty"? Mouse On Mars "arty"? Patrick Pulsinger "arty"!?? No way. Art, perhaps, but not arty.

quoted 4 lines And, as I think about it, your average IDM listener seems to be taken up

> And, as I think about it, your average IDM listener seems to be taken up > with a need to look down on all things "rock" as boring. That's fucking > retarded. Sure, 99% of rock is utter shite. So is 99% of techno. You > just have to LOOK, and by failing to look

I whole-heartedly agree. Any kind of ignoration (is that a word?) based on something as totalitarian as a concept (Adorno (he-he)) is use- and worthless. Forget about "Techno" and "Rock". What does it sound like? Any good? Are they using guitars!? Oh my God...but...what the...it rules! (this could be the reaction of a person fixated on Techno upon hearing My Bloody Valentine for the first time). And I'll give you this: I really don't like The Wire's attitude towards what they call "academic electronic music". They could've had a lot more features and reviews and discussions instead of just name-dropping the genre (oops) with a patronizing remark here and there -- explaining instead of disdaining, please.

quoted 3 lines Besides, someone from Princeton talking about pretentiousness? It is to laugh.

> > Besides, someone from Princeton talking about pretentiousness? It is to laugh. > > Umm, fuck you, asshole. You don't actually have to suffer through the

Hmmm. Princeton? "fuck you asshole"? Cool.

quoted 1 line the humble abbott arthur purvis set his hand hereto

> the humble abbott arthur purvis set his hand hereto

/Oeivind/

Øivind Idsø wrote:

quoted 8 lines Arthur B. Purvis wrote:

> Arthur B. Purvis wrote: > >> Another good example: The Wire would never be caught dead writing an >> article on a band called "Skinny Puppy." Listen to the track Download on >> Last Rights - lots of CD skipping, noise, etc. 4 years later or so - The >> Wire discovers Oval (after their hype at the hands of Tortoise, however) >> totally ignoring Skinny Puppy. They will always, because it isn't "arty" >> enough.

Arthur, given that you've now shown that you're a former (if not present) Industrialist and your definition of "dark" music tends to coincide rather neatly with that style of music purveyed by certain brütish ambient Industrial artists ... have you ever stopped to consider the fact that maybe the reason that "The Wire" doesn't write about "Skinny Puppy" or the "Download" track in particular is because back when "Last Rights" was finished (at the beginning of November 1991) "The Wire" was covering shit like Pat Metheny? It's true - issue #102, August 1992 (by which time I know "Last Rights" was out) featured Trilok Girtu, Sons of Arqa, Joi, Pat Metheny, Steve Martland and Jimmy Witherspoon. The following month's issue #103 featured such Industrial artsy stalwarts as Mel Torme, Sinatra vs. Costello, Mike Westbrook, Schubert, Elvis Presley and Television. Need I say more? My point being that a magazine covers what it wants to cover at the time, based on the interests of the editorialship and the writers. At the time of Skinny Puppy's "Last Rights", "The Wire" was still run by people mostly interested in Jazz & Improv. By the time of Oval's "Diskont 94", there were people on board who were interested in modern Electronic music (there was a "Berlin Techno" feature in #124, June 1994, for example). You can hardly skewer "The Wire" for not covering Skinny Puppy 6 years after the fact!

quoted 2 lines I have to 'defend' The Wire, as I think it's one of very few magazines who

> I have to 'defend' The Wire, as I think it's one of very few magazines who > actually has something interesting to say about music [...]

I agree with Oeivind (even if he can't keep his posts within 80 columns (-: ). "The Wire" writes about music I'm interested in. It writes about music that I don't see written about in the other magazines I have access to. "The Wire" also covers music that I'm not interested in (the Free Jazz/Improv scene that is their historical/traditional oevre). I simply don't read those bits that I'm not interested in. Works for me.

quoted 8 lines First of all, I think you are putting too much of an emphasis on The Wire's

> First of all, I think you are putting too much of an emphasis on The Wire's > conscious approach to picking out music you think is hype. A trivial fact: A > magazine that has a certain amount of circulation (number of copies being > printed) and a semi-large audience have to 'hype' something, in the sense > that it's unavoidable that their (The Wire's) influence will rub off on their > readers. The Wire puts Alec Empire on their cover, and of course some kind of > attention will be paid to this guy (deservedly or undeservedly) ... if not > there wouldn't be any point in running a magazine, right? Enter discourse.

More to the point, who else puts Alec Empire on the cover? Or Autechre? Or Plaid? Or Juan Atkins? Or Rupert (Photek) Parkes? Or Patrick Pulsinger? Props to "The Wire" for having the guts to do this. And to keep going, even after years of pummelling in the letters section from the previous Free Jazz & Improv readership who continue to whinge at them for covering Techno and modern Electronic music to their dismay.

quoted 9 lines To the issue of The Wire being too arty: What the hell does word "arty" mean

> To the issue of The Wire being too arty: What the hell does word "arty" mean > anyway? It's being dropped everywhere; would you care to explain why *you* > think The Wire chose Oval instead of Skinny Puppy to generate the CD-skipping > hype (BTW, I like Oval quite a bit)? Your claim has a sort of semi-paranoid > ring to it (although I'm sure you didn't mean for it to sound paranoid), and > I'm curious as to what you might think the The Wire's motives are/were. > Perhaps Skinny Puppy's version of CD-skipping just wasn't to be liked (I > haven't heard the track(s) you're refering to - sorry), and Oval are simply > doing it 'better' (whatever that means)?

I'm not exactly sure what Arthur was referring to (CD-skipping hype?), but again I posit that it's simply the fact that their current staff is aware of Oval, who exist in the here & now, and Puppy is from the previous era and one shouldn't necessarily expect all the writers of "The Wire" to be aware of every track ever released that uses CD skipping, especially if it was released back in their Free Jazz era by an Industrial band! Conversely, given that the Immerse people sprung to some degree from the old Music From The Empty Quarter stable, I would be willing to bet that if *they* were to talk about Oval and CD skipping, the Pups might get a look-see. It's all in the background & interests of the writer(s).

quoted 4 lines Besides, your opinions on The Wire are just as stereotyped as the stereotypes

> Besides, your opinions on The Wire are just as stereotyped as the stereotypes > you claim The Wire are presenting, if you know what I mean. Come on ... Alec > Empire "arty"? Plaid "arty"? Mouse On Mars "arty"? Patrick Pulsinger > "arty"!?? No way. Art, perhaps, but not arty.

Exactly.

quoted 11 lines And, as I think about it, your average IDM listener seems to be taken up

>> And, as I think about it, your average IDM listener seems to be taken up >> with a need to look down on all things "Rock" as boring. That's fucking >> retarded. Sure, 99% of Rock is utter shite. So is 99% of Techno. You >> just have to LOOK, and by failing to look [...] > > I whole-heartedly agree. Any kind of ignoration (is that a word?) based on > something as totalitarian as a concept (Adorno (he-he)) is use- and worthless. > Forget about "Techno" and "Rock". What does it sound like? Any good? Are > they using guitars!? Oh my God ... but ... what the ... it rules! (This > could be the reaction of a person fixated on Techno upon hearing My Bloody > Valentine for the first time).

But here's where I'll disagree with both of you. Somebody that's as young as Arthur probably is ("young" in my almost-40 vernacular is "anyone under 30", for purposes of this discussion (-: ) can easily come upon all of today's musical genres in a veritable Demolition Derby of spacetime conflagration: translation, anything and everything can be "new" to some extent when you are relatively young. For me, however, my world lines are sufficiently long enough to have followed a certain path. I first heard My Bloody Valentine well before I heard Techno music. I've already been through my "99% is shit" phase. I like a *lot* more than 1% of the Techno and related music I hear these days. While I'll stop short of exclaiming "It's All Fuckin' Good!" I'm finding that my wider acceptance of music these days is inspiring. I used to be a young, bitter, cynical "There's my taste ... and bad taste" type, especially back in the Industrial days. I got over it. I feel better now (-: ('Course, maybe I'm just officially an Old Fart ... (-: ) But I've heard guitars/ bass/ drums style "Rock" music for over 30 years now. And it bores me shitless. And I feel this is a valid opinion to have, a valid framework to operate in, because it's filtered through my experiences. The person who's 19 now and listens to, say, Goth might find it new to them and exhilarating; the person who went through it first time 'round and was prancing around to Sisters of Mercy and Siouxsie in '82 would undoubtedly find the same exact music the 19 year old now likes to be hopelessly retro and outdated.

quoted 4 lines Besides, someone from Princeton talking about pretentiousness? It is to

>>> Besides, someone from Princeton talking about pretentiousness? It is to >>> laugh. >> >> Umm, fuck you, asshole.

Hahahaha ... hook, line and sinker. - Greg

quoted 3 lines Parting shot:

>> Parting shot: >> No-U-Turn is "dark" music for people who have no idea what "dark" music >> actually sounds like.

I agree, No-U-Turn are overrated, although they have put out some good stuff. I think the problem is their sound has not progressed. I have yet to hear any new stuff by them, so here's hoping they've given the old sound at least a new lick of paint... Torque was essentially more of the same and a nice roundup, but little else. Lets hope they push the envelope with forthcoming stuff. No more hoover bass or flat distorted bass, please! Meanwhile, Ed Rush is now blagging off Dom and Roland/Optical rather than Nico which makes his at least sound a little more interesting and different, but only credits him with the similar blagging tactics to Goldie and of generally being all bald head and no ideas. IMO. "Arthur B. Purvis" <abpurvis@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> says:

quoted 4 lines Well, I haven't heard all of it, but I've heard quite a bit (Torque + some

>Well, I haven't heard all of it, but I've heard quite a bit (Torque + some >random 12"s) and all of it's been pretty terrible. The same style >distorted, badly produced bass sound, the same 2step badly produced >drums, and some lame atmospherics.

With the emphasis for me being on 'the same'. Quite liked their sound originally, but soon became staler the more and more similar stuff they put out. And no, it has nothing to do me trying to be credible, I just got bored and didn't want to own the same record howevermany (hoovermany?) times.

quoted 4 lines And I wanted to like it so badly - I

>And I wanted to like it so badly - I >mean, dark drum and bass; this is an idea that inherently appeals to me >(as I'm sure it does to many of you, I won't explain any further). >Torque was easily the biggest letdown of the year.

Well, don't let it let you down! Get out there and check out these if you haven't already... DJ Krust - Genetic Manipulation DJ Krust - Future Unknown DJ Krust - Soul In Motion DJ Suv - Freebeat EP Dillinja - Light Years Lemon D - 12:01 Optical - Moving 808s John B - Sight Beyond Dark, but original hooverless dark! Gb. -- "BIG UP YA CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR" from * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * - L@@K WHAT THE CAT DRAGGED iN - ADVENT CRAZY http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/lwtcdi/all/ DAMN JUKEBOX http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/lwtcdi/all/4musjuke.htm * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * X amount of party streamers...

Here's a few replies to assorted comments re: No U Turn. lwtcdi wrote:

quoted 7 lines I agree, No-U-Turn are overrated, although they have put out some good

> I agree, No-U-Turn are overrated, although they have put out some good > stuff. I think the problem is their sound has not progressed. I have yet > to hear any new stuff by them, so here's hoping they've given the old > sound at least a new lick of paint... Torque was essentially more of the > same and a nice roundup, but little else. Lets hope they push the > envelope with forthcoming stuff. No more hoover bass or flat distorted > bass, please!

I will agree with the statement that the No U Turn sound HAS got a bit stale and the last release, 'cells', was a bit of a dissapointment too. Although Nico was the one who started the whole tech thing, there ARE quite a few people who have taken it quite a bit farther. Boymerang is one example, but it seems to me that he's fallen into the same trap and all his tracks are starting to sound the same also. No progression. Ditto for Panacea. When the chrome stuff started to hit, I was all over it. I still get them all (and enjoy them), but how far can you go with a distorted break? It's really the same bitch you all are making about hoover bass... Nico was caught in a rut for quite some time, but it seams that he's got his head on straight, so look for tons of new stuff (and new artists) in 98 that WILL be pushing the envelope once again!

quoted 4 lines Meanwhile, Ed Rush is now blagging off Dom and Roland/Optical rather

> Meanwhile, Ed Rush is now blagging off Dom and Roland/Optical rather > than Nico which makes his at least sound a little more interesting and > different, but only credits him with the similar blagging tactics to > Goldie and of generally being all bald head and no ideas. IMO.

While you are all slaging the No U Turn line up, remember that Dom AND Optical are both (not so official) members of the crew, as is Fierce, who I consider one of, if not THE, best jungle dj's on the planet. People like Ed Rush, Trace and Fierce ARE dj's first and foremost, but they DO bring ideas into the studio and they do know what moves a crowd. Since they haven't been producing tracks for over ten years like Nico, Dom or Optical, they ARE just learning their chops in the studio. And ALL OF THEM are gearing up to wreck some fucking heads in the new year, so watch out! and Grievous said:

quoted 2 lines and i LIKE _torque_, but next to panacea (or almost anything german) it's

> and i LIKE _torque_, but next to panacea (or almost anything german) it's > pretty weak.

Speaking of germans, the latest NuBlack was released last week (#5) and it's two tracks of pure german drum and bass by Makai. The a-side is the Makai remix of Omen, which I love to pieces and think is head and shoulders better then the Nico/Makai mixes that were on #4 (no hoover bass!). The flip is Overfiend, which is also a ripping tune. I'm not sure if you No U Turn haters are aware of Makai (or Ono Sendi), but they're 180 degrees opposite from Panacea. Impeccably clean, smooth as fuck, very linear, rock solid but still dark. They do a lot of midi drum programing, in contrast to the chrome kids, who use chopped and distorted loops and like their shit noisy. Me, I like it both ways... Arthur B. Purvis says:

quoted 4 lines Well, I haven't heard all of it, but I've heard quite a bit (Torque + some

> >Well, I haven't heard all of it, but I've heard quite a bit (Torque + some > >random 12"s) and all of it's been pretty terrible. The same style > >distorted, badly produced bass sound, the same 2step badly produced > >drums, and some lame atmospherics.

So why did panacea sample all of the above noises? Oh, I know...if you distort a 'distorted, badly produced bass sound' AND ALSO distort the break until it's a fucking square wave, then its ok? Maybe you need some new ears (or speakers)?

quoted 4 lines And I wanted to like it so badly - I

> >And I wanted to like it so badly - I > >mean, dark drum and bass; this is an idea that inherently appeals to me > >(as I'm sure it does to many of you, I won't explain any further). > >Torque was easily the biggest letdown of the year.

Well, I thought it was quite nice and peacefully co-exists on my shelf next to 'Low Profile Darkness'... word to the mothership, brock np: Death to the Pixies

quoted 7 lines I agree, No-U-Turn are overrated, although they have put out some good

>> I agree, No-U-Turn are overrated, although they have put out some good >> stuff. I think the problem is their sound has not progressed. I have yet >> to hear any new stuff by them, so here's hoping they've given the old >> sound at least a new lick of paint... Torque was essentially more of the >> same and a nice roundup, but little else. Lets hope they push the >> envelope with forthcoming stuff. No more hoover bass or flat distorted >> bass, please!

quoted 2 lines I will agree with the statement that the No U Turn sound HAS got a bit

>I will agree with the statement that the No U Turn sound HAS got a bit >stale and the last release, 'cells', was a bit of a dissapointment too.

Haven't heard it yet. I was tempted, but not that much. Heard the new Trace on Prototype, and it wasn't much different to Area 51 on the Breakbeat Science 2. Still pretty good, but nothing new.

quoted 4 lines Although Nico was the one who started the whole tech thing, there ARE

>Although Nico was the one who started the whole tech thing, there ARE >quite a few people who have taken it quite a bit farther. Boymerang is >one example, but it seems to me that he's fallen into the same trap and >all his tracks are starting to sound the same also. No progression.

Yeah, I don't think he took it THAT much further though. IMO the only producers pushing the dark sound are Krust, Suv, Optical and Hidden Agenda. Maybe a couple more, but that's basically it.

quoted 3 lines Ditto for Panacea. When the chrome stuff started to hit, I was all over

>Ditto for Panacea. When the chrome stuff started to hit, I was all over >it. I still get them all (and enjoy them), but how far can you go with >a distorted break?

Never heard any Panacea, but it struck me as if it would be more boom-chix boom-chix and atmospherics. Techno-style d&b. I'm not adverse to this (the new Swift being a case in point - this is how effective it can be), but whatever happened to the funky drummer in drum and bass? This is what it's all about, surely? The drum and bass producers that can keep it funky, dark *and* hard, not the ones who enter into all this 'lets see what the darkest sound we can make is' competitions that seem to make up a lot of dark drum and bass these days...

quoted 1 line It's really the same bitch you all are making about hoover bass...

>It's really the same bitch you all are making about hoover bass...

Yeah, I guess so. There's so much more to d'n'b. It's pure sound-sculpture when it's at its best.

quoted 3 lines Nico was caught in a rut for quite some time, but it seams that he's got

>Nico was caught in a rut for quite some time, but it seams that he's got >his head on straight, so look for tons of new stuff (and new artists) in >98 that WILL be pushing the envelope once again!

Great, I can't wait to hear the results! (I'm not being sarcastic)

quoted 4 lines Meanwhile, Ed Rush is now blagging off Dom and Roland/Optical rather

>> Meanwhile, Ed Rush is now blagging off Dom and Roland/Optical rather >> than Nico which makes his at least sound a little more interesting and >> different, but only credits him with the similar blagging tactics to >> Goldie and of generally being all bald head and no ideas. IMO.

quoted 2 lines While you are all slaging the No U Turn line up, remember that Dom AND

>While you are all slaging the No U Turn line up, remember that Dom AND >Optical are both (not so official) members of the crew,

So unoffical that they've never had records out on No-U-Turn :-)

quoted 2 lines as is Fierce,

>as is Fierce, >who I consider one of, if not THE, best jungle dj's on the planet.

Haven't heard any of them DJ, so I can't comment, but I agree that in drum and bass some of the DJs are as important as the music makers (Bryan Gee, Jack Frost, Hype, Groove, etc)

quoted 3 lines People like Ed Rush, Trace and Fierce ARE dj's first and foremost, but

> People like Ed Rush, Trace and Fierce ARE dj's first and foremost, but > they DO bring ideas into the studio and they do know what moves a > crowd.

Yeah, I can understand that, but I still think that the lone producers make the best tracks and really push the scene. To me it's not just about rocking the dancefloor. Producers will do this anyway in drum and bass. Sometimes DJ's have a tendancy to fall back on past technique rather than embrace the future of the music...

quoted 2 lines Since they haven't been producing tracks for over ten years like

> Since they haven't been producing tracks for over ten years like > Nico, Dom or Optical, they ARE just learning their chops in the studio.

Okay, fair comment.

quoted 2 lines And ALL OF THEM are gearing up to wreck some fucking heads in the new

> And ALL OF THEM are gearing up to wreck some fucking heads in the new > year, so watch out!

I hope so, I really really hope so! If it's really true, I can't wait! Big-up's to Nico and crew! Gb. -- "BIG UP YA CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR" from * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * - L@@K WHAT THE CAT DRAGGED iN - ADVENT CRAZY http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/lwtcdi/all/ DAMN JUKEBOX http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/lwtcdi/all/4musjuke.htm * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * X amount of party streamers...