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[idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans

14 messages · 11 participants · spans 53 days · search this subject
◇ merged from 2 subjects: booking info for drew daniels? · open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie idm" fans
2005-09-04 19:00Chris Chatham [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
├─ 2005-09-04 19:14StaticBeats Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
│ └─ 2005-09-04 19:17Alan Lucas Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
│ ├─ 2005-09-04 20:42Eric Sorenson Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
│ └─ 2005-09-04 22:52Darren J. Cunningham Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
├─ 2005-09-04 19:22THOUGHTBLUDGEON RE: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
└─ 2005-09-04 19:30Luis-Manuel Garcia Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
2005-09-04 21:14chthonic Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
2005-09-05 13:00David Sim Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
└─ 2005-09-05 14:34Luis-Manuel Garcia Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
2005-09-06 16:48David Sim Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
2005-09-06 19:49terrahertz_og [idm] Re: open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
2005-09-06 22:30Jeff Halter [idm] Re: open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
└─ 2005-10-27 13:37Luis-Manuel Garcia [idm] Booking info for Drew Daniels?
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2005-09-04 19:00Chris Chatham---An open letter i wrote to pitchfork media. I thought I'd post it here, not as flame bai
From:
Chris Chatham
To:
Date:
Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:00:49 -0600
Subject:
[idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
permalink · <E1EBzjV-0000ER-VT@box19.bluehost.com>
---An open letter i wrote to pitchfork media. I thought I'd post it here, not as flame bait but because i'm curious who else has noticed something similar--- I have some comments about what I perceive as a site-wide musical bias from pitchforkmedia, and a concern that specifically your electronic music reviews are ill-informed and revisionist. It's clear that pitchfork media's writers come from the "indie rock" tradition, and by that I do not mean the tradition of independent musicians (stretching back to the days of jazz) but the cultural movement of mostly white, educated, suburban males with horn-rimmed glasses in the early&mid 90's who laid claim to the term "indie." At the time, their use of the term "indie" importantly only referred to music made with live instruments on independent labels. Many of the values were passed down from the grunge scene, including fashion. It was specifically _not_ used to refer to the music from the bourgeoning rave movement (or even the third wave of industrial music, such as Nine Inch Nails) although much of that music was also independently produced and released. Accordingly, exclusive fans of electronic music were not considered "indie." The thread tying together the "indie" scene was actually a _live music ethic_ rather than the independence of its musicians. This entailed the sonic artifacts of live performance, including instrumental mistakes, occasionally cracking voices, and background noise. Think Sonic Youth, or Pavement. There was a sense that you were "more indie" if you used crappy equipment, made crappy recordings on old cassettes, or had a raspy voice. Given the cumbersome nature of electronic music technology at the time (making it difficult to play live) and the increasing production values in the electronic scene, it's not surprising that electronic music was considered mostly outside the purview of "indie." It was during this time that most genres of electronic music were being spawned, including the special case of "IDM," which would be assimilated by the indie scene only years after the truly pioneering tracks were first released. It was easily assimilated because IDM often exalted the same sounds that gave indie music it's live flavor - sonic artifacts (e.g., Pole), the use of bad or minimal sonic equipment (e.g., Scanner), and the intentional use of noise (e.g., Aphex, Autechre). Furthermore, it was seen as the "underground" portion of electronic music. This was slightly ironic given that even at that time (late 90's) Aphex Twin and Autechre had probably sold far more records than the average house/techno/trance/breaks/industrial producer (whose customers were primarily djs). Many of these less popular musicians probably exemplified the ideal of the "independent musician" more than these IDM superstars. Nonetheless, Matador and Merge Records bought it up, and business was brisk as indie could finally claim a piece of the electronica pie. As the production values of rave and industrial music climbed ever higher, and the aesthetic continued to search for more and more 'futuristic sounds' (particularly in the fusion of the two genres with world music known as Goa and now Psytrance), popular music started going the other direction. Most people couldnt' tell the difference between an electronic music track produced in 2001 and one from 2003, because the sound quality wasn't evolving quite as quickly, and the rate of genre explosion had slowed. IDM labels were still doing well within the indie community, as evidenced by Merck records, despite the fact that the genre was already about 10 years old and really hadn't changed much since the original "Artifical Intelligence" compilations on Warp. Then, a resurgence of interest in 70's and 80's music led the way for IDM artists and ex-indie rockers alike to find "innovation" in replaying old cliches. Note that several of pitchfork-media's reviews reflect this attitude by deifying early 80's artists such as The Fall, Depeche Mode, New Order, Joy Division, and various New Wave acts. With the exception of indie sweethearts Sonic Youth, Pavement, and their ilk, the music of the 90's have been erased from the indie definition of "cool." IDM artists have followed suit in attempt to reclaim their "indie" fanbase by recreating the late 80's acid sound (such as the new Aphex material) and in some cases by actually reproducing mid 80's style synth pop (Solvent, for example). So the winds of change dictate that any electronic music still pursuing high production values, futuristic sounds, and new high-fidelity sonic trickery should be lambasted by the indie community as horrible, trite, and derivative music (ironic given the fact that the indie community is currently cloning 80's pop, which at the very least is trite and derivative). The effects of this intertwined musical/cultural history are apparent in your reviews. Music from the indie rock or IDM traditions are consistently reviewed as 'better' than music that derives from the simultaneous, but very different movements of rave and industrial music. Consequently, I am afraid that your writers simply do not understand those genres. Or, maybe they just have an engrained or subconscious musical & cultural bias against it. Take, for example, the review of Juno Reactor's Shango (which, by the way, I would agree was a bad album): http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/j/juno- reactor/shango.shtml. I understand that the reviewer was partly using this album as an opportunity to be funny, but even a shallow analysis easily uncovers the bias inherent to the "indie" view of the electronic music genres descended from rave and industrial. First quote: "The broadly-browed, deeply eye-socketed industrial types at Metropolis would adore me if this review were written in a hyperbolic, gushingly adoring fashion. They would colonically irrigate me with their gladdened tongues if I professed undying affection for Juno Reactor's fifth album." As it turns out, I know that the people at Metropolis records would definitely not even have thanked you for giving them a good review, and they might indeed forget to send you any more records to review. So I'm not sure where this writer got his information, although I suppose I'm forgetting it's not a serious review but rather a comedy routine. "With their hard-earned soundtrack cash, they've employed Steve Stevens, Billy Idol's old guitarist, to doodle Hispanically on Shango's opening track, "Pistelero." The song has been fashioned so that your industrial disco can get you all high-plains-drifting and Sergio Leone. You can be a body-popping, cheroot-chewing, Clint Eastwood poncho- wearing fool. Listening to such malarkey, let alone dancing to it, will not make you attractive. In fact, you'll be considered a prize tit, unless you're blessed with a scrumptious bod and are unfeasibly well hung." At the time pistolero was released, it was a ground breaking track. This predated David Thrussel's attempts to use spaghetti western sounds in danceable electronic music. This had actually never been done before and was quite innovative. The fact that the reviewer concentrates on the effect of this track in a "live setting" such as a dance club reveals a misplaced frame of reference: only indie music, not rave or industrial, is firmly situated in a live setting where one can act like a "prize tit" and have it matter. The setting of rave and industrial music was always the theater of the mind. Part of the fun of raves and industrial parties has always been the fact that you can dress up in a bizarre costume, dance around like a tit, and it really doesn't matter. This reviewer clearly does not understand either a) the musical innovation of this track or b) the greater context of electronic music. Why was such a nonexpert picked to review the album? "But lobbing him into the midst of fully Quantized, sequenced beats isn't going to allow him to shine like Steven Scales did on those early eighties Talking Heads' releases." Again, the praise of early 80's music is apparent. The reviewer also incorrectly capitalizes "quantized" and shows a lack of knowledge of danceable electronic music's primary technique: polyrhythms. Overlaying quantized beats with shuffled or non-quantized rhythms is what gives good electronic music it's "swing" and funk. But I wouldn't expect a professional record reviewer to know that. It's also worth saying that David Byrne has always been electronically produced and has certainly used his fair share of drum tracks quantization. "Removed from the soundtrack to a Hollywood holiday blockbuster, the ham-fisted brutality Juno Reactor exhibit is openly clumsy and, initially, bloody amusing. But brutality can be beautiful. Alec Empire's Curse of the Golden Vampire proves that one doesn't have induce belly laughs, ear-ache or dyspepsia to make the ugly appealing" Again, notice the bias toward the darling of indie's acquired genre, Alec Empire, who never really produced anything that hadn't been done by industrial noise artists before him (try Panacea, Winterkalte or Esplendor Geometrico). "While industrial bands sound stuck in Orwell's 1984, and their albums resemble gruffer-than-thou remakes of Depeche Mode's Speak and Spell, pioneering techno artists are presently casting aside the obvious and investigating the clicks and cuts of digital accidents." CURRENTLY? What decade is this reviewer living in? Pole "investigated" these clicks and cuts in 2000, Haujobb did it before them with "99," Uwe Schmidt did it as industrial group "Lassigue Bendthaus" on the Cloned EP in the mid 90s, Warp records did it in 1993, and Zoviet France/Dead Voices on Air did it in the late 80s. This reviewer is clearly uninformed about current electronic music trend - no one would claim that the investigating of clicks and cuts of digital accidents is a 'current' trend. Anyone currently doing that is at risk of legal action for plagiarism. I'm sure that I could find additional examples of your site's bias, but I am tired of writing. If you have questions, please feel free to ask, particularly about how you might acquire knowledgeable electronic music reviewers. Best of luck in doing justice to music you don't understand, Chris Chatham. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2005-09-04 19:14StaticBeatsomg ! We shoulda been calling IDM - Independent Dance Music all along... How could we have
From:
StaticBeats
To:
Independent Dance Music
Date:
Sun, 4 Sep 2005 12:14:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
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[idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
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omg ! We shoulda been calling IDM - Independent Dance Music all along... How could we have missed the opportunity? Gonna have to try and remember that one! Pitchfork though is NOT the place to be getting your reviews on electronic music. They have some bizarre opinions on shit I've found to be incredibly good. You think the IDM list is bad? Pitchfork takes snobbery to a whole new level. Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com http://www.jungle-life.com http://www.boomboombap.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2005-09-04 19:17Alan LucasOn 9/4/05, StaticBeats <stupidnametaken@yahoo.com> wrote: > omg ! > > We shoulda been call
From:
Alan Lucas
To:
incidental derogatory mnemonics
Date:
Sun, 4 Sep 2005 15:17:32 -0400
Subject:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
Reply to:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
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On 9/4/05, StaticBeats <stupidnametaken@yahoo.com> wrote:
quoted 12 lines omg !> omg ! > > We shoulda been calling IDM - Independent Dance Music > all along... How could we have missed the opportunity? > Gonna have to try and remember that one! > > Pitchfork though is NOT the place to be getting your > reviews on electronic music. They have some bizarre > opinions on shit I've found to be incredibly good. You > think the IDM list is bad? Pitchfork takes snobbery to > a whole new level. >
I really miss absorb.org. They could be pretty snarky, but at least they reviewed stuff that I actually was paying attention to. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2005-09-04 20:42Eric SorensonOn Sun, 4 Sep 2005, Alan Lucas wrote: > I really miss absorb.org. They could be pretty sna
From:
Eric Sorenson
To:
Alan Lucas
Cc:
incidental derogatory mnemonics
Date:
Sun, 4 Sep 2005 13:42:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
Reply to:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
permalink · <Pine.LNX.4.61.0509041340490.24395@hexogen.explosive.net>
On Sun, 4 Sep 2005, Alan Lucas wrote:
quoted 2 lines I really miss absorb.org. They could be pretty snarky, but at least> I really miss absorb.org. They could be pretty snarky, but at least > they reviewed stuff that I actually was paying attention to.
The (in my opinion) best absorb.org / stylusmagazine reviewer, Ron Schepper, has his own site up, which is updated monthly and nails the 'snarky, yes, but at least we tell you something about the goddamn album' vibe that makes the difference between a good review and pitchfork pabulum. http://www.textura.org/ -- - Eric Sorenson - N37 17.255 W121 55.738 - http://eric.explosive.net - - Personal colo with a professional touch - http://www.explosive.net - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2005-09-04 22:52Darren J. CunninghamThe guy who did absorb.org now does http://www.failme.net/ On 4/9/05 8:17 pm, "Alan Lucas"
From:
Darren J. Cunningham
To:
Alan Lucas , incidental derogatory mnemonics
Date:
Sun, 04 Sep 2005 23:52:03 +0100
Subject:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
Reply to:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
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The guy who did absorb.org now does http://www.failme.net/ On 4/9/05 8:17 pm, "Alan Lucas" <alucas@gmail.com> wrote:
quoted 21 lines On 9/4/05, StaticBeats <stupidnametaken@yahoo.com> wrote:> On 9/4/05, StaticBeats <stupidnametaken@yahoo.com> wrote: >> omg ! >> >> We shoulda been calling IDM - Independent Dance Music >> all along... How could we have missed the opportunity? >> Gonna have to try and remember that one! >> >> Pitchfork though is NOT the place to be getting your >> reviews on electronic music. They have some bizarre >> opinions on shit I've found to be incredibly good. You >> think the IDM list is bad? Pitchfork takes snobbery to >> a whole new level. >> > > I really miss absorb.org. They could be pretty snarky, but at least > they reviewed stuff that I actually was paying attention to. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2005-09-04 19:22THOUGHTBLUDGEONGood read. :) I especially like this bit: "This reviewer is clearly uninformed about curre
From:
THOUGHTBLUDGEON
To:
Date:
Sun, 04 Sep 2005 15:22:07 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
Reply to:
[idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
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Good read. :) I especially like this bit: "This reviewer is clearly uninformed about current electronic music trend - no one would claim that the investigating of clicks and cuts of digital accidents is a 'current' trend. Anyone currently doing that is at risk of legal action for plagiarism." Just the mention of legal action and a commentary on independent music says it all. Better watch out, joey plaidpants might sue you for sampling the needledrop on his 7", heh. :) --- http://www.edgey.net http://www.thoughtbludgeon.com 'intellect in rational movement tries to kill emotion, in doing so, only kills itself.' 'when you're holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail.' AIM: SINIBYTE | ICQ: 126370648 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2005-09-04 19:30Luis-Manuel GarciaWell written! I like the historical narrative you provide that lays "indie" and electronic
From:
Luis-Manuel Garcia
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Cc:
Date:
Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:30:26 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
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[idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
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Well written! I like the historical narrative you provide that lays "indie" and electronic genres side by side. It provides a nice alternative to the Simon Reynolds school of EDM history. Of course, your arguments come as no surprise, but there is some power in pointing out and naming what had remained unsaid. good on ya, Luis On Sep 4, 2005, at 2:00 PM, Chris Chatham wrote:
quoted 225 lines ---An open letter i wrote to pitchfork media. I thought I'd post it> > ---An open letter i wrote to pitchfork media. I thought I'd post it > here, not as flame bait but because i'm curious who else has noticed > something similar--- > > I have some comments about what I perceive as a site-wide musical bias > from pitchforkmedia, and a concern that specifically your electronic > music reviews are ill-informed and revisionist. > > It's clear that pitchfork media's writers come from the "indie rock" > tradition, and by that I do not mean the tradition of independent > musicians (stretching back to the days of jazz) but the cultural > movement of mostly white, educated, suburban males with horn-rimmed > glasses in the early&mid 90's who laid claim to the term "indie." > > At the time, their use of the term "indie" importantly only > referred to > music made with live instruments on independent labels. Many of the > values were passed down from the grunge scene, including fashion. It > was specifically _not_ used to refer to the music from the bourgeoning > rave movement (or even the third wave of industrial music, such as > Nine > Inch Nails) although much of that music was also independently > produced > and released. > > Accordingly, exclusive fans of electronic music were not > considered "indie." The thread tying together the "indie" scene was > actually a _live music ethic_ rather than the independence of its > musicians. This entailed the sonic artifacts of live performance, > including instrumental mistakes, occasionally cracking voices, and > background noise. Think Sonic Youth, or Pavement. There was a sense > that you were "more indie" if you used crappy equipment, made crappy > recordings on old cassettes, or had a raspy voice. Given the > cumbersome nature of electronic music technology at the time > (making it > difficult to play live) and the increasing production values in the > electronic scene, it's not surprising that electronic music was > considered mostly outside the purview of "indie." > > It was during this time that most genres of electronic music were > being > spawned, including the special case of "IDM," which would be > assimilated by the indie scene only years after the truly pioneering > tracks were first released. It was easily assimilated because IDM > often exalted the same sounds that gave indie music it's live flavor - > sonic artifacts (e.g., Pole), the use of bad or minimal sonic > equipment > (e.g., Scanner), and the intentional use of noise (e.g., Aphex, > Autechre). Furthermore, it was seen as the "underground" portion of > electronic music. This was slightly ironic given that even at that > time (late 90's) Aphex Twin and Autechre had probably sold far more > records than the average house/techno/trance/breaks/industrial > producer > (whose customers were primarily djs). Many of these less popular > musicians probably exemplified the ideal of the "independent musician" > more than these IDM superstars. Nonetheless, Matador and Merge > Records > bought it up, and business was brisk as indie could finally claim a > piece of the electronica pie. > > As the production values of rave and industrial music climbed ever > higher, and the aesthetic continued to search for more and > more 'futuristic sounds' (particularly in the fusion of the two genres > with world music known as Goa and now Psytrance), popular music > started > going the other direction. Most people couldnt' tell the difference > between an electronic music track produced in 2001 and one from 2003, > because the sound quality wasn't evolving quite as quickly, and the > rate of genre explosion had slowed. IDM labels were still doing well > within the indie community, as evidenced by Merck records, despite the > fact that the genre was already about 10 years old and really hadn't > changed much since the original "Artifical Intelligence" compilations > on Warp. > > Then, a resurgence of interest in 70's and 80's music led the way for > IDM artists and ex-indie rockers alike to find "innovation" in > replaying old cliches. Note that several of pitchfork-media's reviews > reflect this attitude by deifying early 80's artists such as The Fall, > Depeche Mode, New Order, Joy Division, and various New Wave acts. > With > the exception of indie sweethearts Sonic Youth, Pavement, and their > ilk, the music of the 90's have been erased from the indie definition > of "cool." IDM artists have followed suit in attempt to reclaim > their "indie" fanbase by recreating the late 80's acid sound (such as > the new Aphex material) and in some cases by actually reproducing mid > 80's style synth pop (Solvent, for example). > > So the winds of change dictate that any electronic music still > pursuing > high production values, futuristic sounds, and new high-fidelity sonic > trickery should be lambasted by the indie community as horrible, > trite, > and derivative music (ironic given the fact that the indie > community is > currently cloning 80's pop, which at the very least is trite and > derivative). > > The effects of this intertwined musical/cultural history are apparent > in your reviews. Music from the indie rock or IDM traditions are > consistently reviewed as 'better' than music that derives from the > simultaneous, but very different movements of rave and industrial > music. Consequently, I am afraid that your writers simply do not > understand those genres. Or, maybe they just have an engrained or > subconscious musical & cultural bias against it. > > Take, for example, the review of Juno Reactor's Shango (which, by the > way, I would agree was a bad album): > http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/j/juno- > reactor/shango.shtml. I understand that the reviewer was partly using > this album as an opportunity to be funny, but even a shallow analysis > easily uncovers the bias inherent to the "indie" view of the > electronic > music genres descended from rave and industrial. > > First quote: > "The broadly-browed, deeply eye-socketed industrial types at > Metropolis > would adore me if this review were written in a hyperbolic, gushingly > adoring fashion. They would colonically irrigate me with their > gladdened tongues if I professed undying affection for Juno Reactor's > fifth album." > > As it turns out, I know that the people at Metropolis records would > definitely not even have thanked you for giving them a good review, > and > they might indeed forget to send you any more records to review. So > I'm not sure where this writer got his information, although I suppose > I'm forgetting it's not a serious review but rather a comedy routine. > > "With their hard-earned soundtrack cash, they've employed Steve > Stevens, Billy Idol's old guitarist, to doodle Hispanically on > Shango's > opening track, "Pistelero." The song has been fashioned so that your > industrial disco can get you all high-plains-drifting and Sergio > Leone. > You can be a body-popping, cheroot-chewing, Clint Eastwood poncho- > wearing fool. Listening to such malarkey, let alone dancing to it, > will > not make you attractive. In fact, you'll be considered a prize tit, > unless you're blessed with a scrumptious bod and are unfeasibly well > hung." > > At the time pistolero was released, it was a ground breaking track. > This predated David Thrussel's attempts to use spaghetti western > sounds > in danceable electronic music. This had actually never been done > before and was quite innovative. The fact that the reviewer > concentrates on the effect of this track in a "live setting" such as a > dance club reveals a misplaced frame of reference: only indie music, > not rave or industrial, is firmly situated in a live setting where one > can act like a "prize tit" and have it matter. The setting of rave > and > industrial music was always the theater of the mind. Part of the fun > of raves and industrial parties has always been the fact that you can > dress up in a bizarre costume, dance around like a tit, and it really > doesn't matter. This reviewer clearly does not understand either a) > the musical innovation of this track or b) the greater context of > electronic music. Why was such a nonexpert picked to review the > album? > > "But lobbing him into the midst of fully Quantized, sequenced beats > isn't going to allow him to shine like Steven Scales did on those > early > eighties Talking Heads' releases." > > Again, the praise of early 80's music is apparent. The reviewer also > incorrectly capitalizes "quantized" and shows a lack of knowledge of > danceable electronic music's primary technique: polyrhythms. > Overlaying quantized beats with shuffled or non-quantized rhythms is > what gives good electronic music it's "swing" and funk. But I > wouldn't > expect a professional record reviewer to know that. > > It's also worth saying that David Byrne has always been electronically > produced and has certainly used his fair share of drum tracks > quantization. > > "Removed from the soundtrack to a Hollywood holiday blockbuster, the > ham-fisted brutality Juno Reactor exhibit is openly clumsy and, > initially, bloody amusing. But brutality can be beautiful. Alec > Empire's Curse of the Golden Vampire proves that one doesn't have > induce belly laughs, ear-ache or dyspepsia to make the ugly appealing" > > Again, notice the bias toward the darling of indie's acquired genre, > Alec Empire, who never really produced anything that hadn't been done > by industrial noise artists before him (try Panacea, Winterkalte or > Esplendor Geometrico). > > "While industrial bands sound stuck in Orwell's 1984, and their albums > resemble gruffer-than-thou remakes of Depeche Mode's Speak and Spell, > pioneering techno artists are presently casting aside the obvious and > investigating the clicks and cuts of digital accidents." > > CURRENTLY? What decade is this reviewer living in? > Pole "investigated" these clicks and cuts in 2000, Haujobb did it > before them with "99," Uwe Schmidt did it as industrial group > "Lassigue > Bendthaus" on the Cloned EP in the mid 90s, Warp records did it in > 1993, and Zoviet France/Dead Voices on Air did it in the late 80s. > This reviewer is clearly uninformed about current electronic music > trend - no one would claim that the investigating of clicks and > cuts of > digital accidents is a 'current' trend. Anyone currently doing > that is > at risk of legal action for plagiarism. > > I'm sure that I could find additional examples of your site's bias, > but > I am tired of writing. If you have questions, please feel free to > ask, > particularly about how you might acquire knowledgeable electronic > music > reviewers. > > Best of luck in doing justice to music you don't understand, > > Chris Chatham. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2005-09-04 21:14chthonicvery nicely done. while the juno reactor example perhaps goes on a bit too long, overall i
From:
chthonic
To:
Date:
Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:14:04 -0700
Subject:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
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very nicely done. while the juno reactor example perhaps goes on a bit too long, overall i think the piece is well-written and calls attention to the obvious problem with pitchfork's "slant". of course, any publication can hide their bias behind an "editorial focus". however, in the case of pitchfork, their "indie rock" focus is not clearly stated on the site, and can only be inferred through repeated perusals of their content. furthermore, as the site has gotten bigger (both in size and popularity), that unstated focus gets blurred as they are just as likely to laud kraftwerk as the white stripes. this starts to give the impression that they are basically a *music* site rather than an *indie* site, while they still clearly give more weight and column space to stories about the brand of indie rock that had its roots in the mid-80's and rose to some kind of prominence and cohesion by the 90's. on the other hand, electronic-based publications have their share of bias as well. there is the same shutout that pitchfork shows for the darker side of electronic music, such as industrial, dark ambient, power electronics, and breakcore, with a few exceptions (merzbow and kid 606 come to mind). in fact, it can be argued that simply by having the focus of one genre (electronic OR rock OR experimental OR hip-hop), any number of publications automatically turn their "focus" into bias. because good music is not often made in a complete vacuum, artists may be influenced by sounds outside their genre (or subgenre in some cases). those same artists can be unfairly lauded or ignored for their efforts. either the narrowminded publication dislikes the "impure" influences shown by the mostly status-quo music, or the artist is raised to the level of genius simply by looking outside their own backyard. the hyper-fragmentation of music in the media has made it somewhat easier for artists fitting into one small niche to get some level of attention. each style has its own labels, club circuits, publications, charts, internet mailing lists and message boards; therefore niche artists have the chance to rise to the top of a very small game. at that point, they may have the opportunity to break out of the ghetto of their own making; they can be hyped as the best of their kind. that is, unless the tastemakers at larger, broader-focused publications (such as pitchfork) have predetermined that said kind is not worthy of coverage. or worse, worthy of ridicule, simply because of guilt by association with a genre they don't understand. this is both the blessing and the curse of genre- and scene-based music. there are two tiers of acceptance to fight through. before even getting to the top of a genre, you have to be clearly in one. not only does this hinder artists who don't think in terms of genre when they create, it also stifles creative growth in artists once they have landed in a genre. the prejudice against certain types of music is so strong that some artists avoid any association with their past once making the transition from one style to another. the examples that come to my mind are ministry (who went from new wave dance to thrash metal), and mikael stavosrand (who was in satanic darkambient/industrial acts archon satani and innana before putting out minimal glitchy electronica under his own name). even this is simply another kind of trap - trading one narrow style for another. the music of these artists could be that much richer if they let their past or other outside influences in. but should they stray from a hermetically-sealed musical environment, they risk a loss of support from the genre-based "farm teams" essential in helping build an audience raised on this kind of fragmentation. thus they're left to deal with more mainstream, supposedly less- biased publications, who are just as used to the neat little genre boxes created for them. and some potentially great music gets passed over or shot down through a complete lack of understanding. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2005-09-05 13:00David Sim> Well written! I like the historical narrative you provide that lays > "indie" and electr
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David Sim
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Date:
Mon, 05 Sep 2005 14:00:10 +0100
Subject:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
permalink · <s31c4f74.080@ccw0m1.nottingham.ac.uk>
quoted 3 lines Well written! I like the historical narrative you provide that lays> Well written! I like the historical narrative you provide that lays > "indie" and electronic genres side by side. It provides a nice > alternative to the Simon Reynolds school of EDM history.
Does Simon Reynolds have a school of EDM history? The most I've seen him lay claim to was a history of the UK rave scene... David -- "And then what do they do?" "Er, quadratic equations mostly, sir. Fiendishly difficult ones by all accounts." This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an attachment may still contain software viruses, which could damage your computer system: you are advised to perform your own checks. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as permitted by UK legislation. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2005-09-05 14:34Luis-Manuel GarciaThat's precisely it. I find that he substitutes the UK rave scene for EDM in general. The
From:
Luis-Manuel Garcia
To:
David Sim
Cc:
Date:
Mon, 5 Sep 2005 09:34:38 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
Reply to:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
permalink · <D297E065-0F5F-4BAB-9051-D655ECBA374C@uchicago.edu>
That's precisely it. I find that he substitutes the UK rave scene for EDM in general. The US appears as a historically distant point of origin and then reappears as an afterthought in the US version of his book. And the rest of the world outside the UK and US is pretty much invisible. Admittedly, Reynolds is writing from his own experience, but the book is marketed as a history, not a memoir. Also, he seems to be working on a kind of philological model where there are a few "stemma" original styles from which everything blossoms. I liked Chris' narrative because EDM/IDM is seen to be in dialogue with other concurrent styles. werd Luis On Sep 5, 2005, at 8:00 AM, David Sim wrote:
quoted 32 lines Well written! I like the historical narrative you provide that lays>> Well written! I like the historical narrative you provide that lays >> "indie" and electronic genres side by side. It provides a nice >> alternative to the Simon Reynolds school of EDM history. >> > > Does Simon Reynolds have a school of EDM history? The most I've > seen him lay claim to was a history of the UK rave scene... > > David > > > -- > "And then what do they do?" > "Er, quadratic equations mostly, sir. Fiendishly difficult ones by > all accounts." > > > This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an > attachment > may still contain software viruses, which could damage your > computer system: > you are advised to perform your own checks. Email communications > with the > University of Nottingham may be monitored as permitted by UK > legislation. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2005-09-06 16:48David Sim> I find that he substitutes the UK rave scene for EDM in general. <snip> > Admittedly, Re
From:
David Sim
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Date:
Tue, 06 Sep 2005 17:48:53 +0100
Subject:
Re: [idm] open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
permalink · <s31dd694.081@ccw0m1.nottingham.ac.uk>
quoted 1 line I find that he substitutes the UK rave scene for EDM in general.> I find that he substitutes the UK rave scene for EDM in general.
<snip>
quoted 2 lines Admittedly, Reynolds is writing from his own experience, but the> Admittedly, Reynolds is writing from his own experience, but the > book is marketed as a history, not a memoir.
It only really claims to be a history of rave - I suspect that claims to be a history of dance music were stuck in by publishers who weren't really aware of what was going on. The only problem is that it claims to be a history of rave and then turns out to be a history of UK rave.
quoted 4 lines Also, he seems to be working on a kind of philological model where> Also, he seems to be working on a kind of philological model where > there are a few "stemma" original styles from which everything > blossoms. I liked Chris' narrative because EDM/IDM is seen to be in > dialogue with other concurrent styles.
That is true. I mean, any attempt to talk about histories of music and influences is trying to draw a pattern that may or may not exist onto a mass of stuff, but SR's view that rave exists in a closed system, or one with only certain inputs (hip hop and dub yes, prog and industrial no) is pretty dodgy. And yeah, I agree with you about Chris' account of things. On the other hand, Reynolds' rejection of the view that IDM leads and dance music follows is, IMO, both right and useful opposition to a rather lazy and arrogant consensus. In particular, his observation that 'stupid' genres normally break more genuinely new ground than 'intelligent' or 'progressive' ones isn't something I'd seen before (although I haven't looked too hard.). I would then disagree with his conclusion that because IDM works by ripping off and combining bits of 'hardcore' dance styles it's neccessarily less creative and interesting - I'd have said that nicking the best bits from a whole bunch of styles and mashing them together produces something that's at least as interesting as the originals... David -- "And then what do they do?" "Er, quadratic equations mostly, sir. Fiendishly difficult ones by all accounts." This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an attachment may still contain software viruses, which could damage your computer system: you are advised to perform your own checks. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as permitted by UK legislation. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2005-09-06 19:49terrahertz_ogI beg to differ about the Solvent comment. However you want to define the "resurgence of i
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terrahertz_og
To:
Cc:
Date:
Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:49:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
[idm] Re: open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
permalink · <20050906194927.99391.qmail@web51301.mail.yahoo.com>
I beg to differ about the Solvent comment. However you want to define the "resurgence of interest in 70's and 80's music" I highly doubt you're referring to a moment or period in time that predates 1997 (and your references to other "guilty parties" seem to confirm that). The first Solvent release came out on Suction in 1997. So, to say "IDM artists have followed suit in attempt to reclaim their "indie" fanbase by recreating the late 80's acid sound (such as the new Aphex material) and in some cases by actually reproducing mid 80's style synth pop (Solvent, for example)" is to malign the name of Solvent, whose work I enjoy very much and who I unabashedly defend as a fan. That first Solvent/Lowfish split sounds a fair bit like the most recent Suction output. I love Solvent's music (and a lot of Suction) because of that -- because of Solvent's obviously personal and unique vision of music, however derivative one might think it to be. Not a whole lot about it has changed in the past 8 years, which suits me fine. To any half-observant historian of modern electronic music (and by that I mean simply one who can pay attention in between bong packings) the idea that Solvent's music exists as it does to "reclaim" some "indie fanbase" is absurd in light of the facts. Just because the bandwagon roars by someone who's been walking on the path since before that bandwagon left the assembly line doesn't mean the pedestrian would appreciate the ride. Perhaps you were confused about the facts from the get-go, or simply pulled a name out of a hat along your quest to indict pitchfork. Either way, I think you owe Solvent an apology. Nick PS Reviews, biased or unbiased, are worthless to me. P2P does me one better by letting me describe the music to myself. I get all the word of mouth info I need here on this list, on others, and in the company of a few choice connoisseurs. --- chatham@m-laboratories.net wrote: <snip> Then, a resurgence of interest in 70's and 80's music led the way for IDM artists and ex-indie rockers alike to find "innovation" in replaying old cliches. Note that several of pitchfork-media's reviews reflect this attitude by deifying early 80's artists such as The Fall, Depeche Mode, New Order, Joy Division, and various New Wave acts. With the exception of indie sweethearts Sonic Youth, Pavement, and their ilk, the music of the 90's have been erased from the indie definition of "cool." IDM artists have followed suit in attempt to reclaim their "indie" fanbase by recreating the late 80's acid sound (such as the new Aphex material) and in some cases by actually reproducing mid 80's style synth pop (Solvent, for example). <snip> ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2005-09-06 22:30Jeff HalterI beg to differ about the Solvent comment. However you want to define the "resurgence of i
From:
Jeff Halter
To:
Cc:
Date:
Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:30:11 -0700
Subject:
[idm] Re: open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
permalink · <AB146E80-92C1-4FA3-AFF1-F70F9B36301D@cucumbermeadows.com>
I beg to differ about the Solvent comment. However you want to define the "resurgence of interest in 70's and 80's music" I highly doubt you're referring to a moment or period in time that predates 1997 (and your references to other "guilty parties" seem to confirm that). The first Solvent release came out on Suction in 1997. So, to say "IDM artists have followed suit in attempt to reclaim their "indie" fanbase by recreating the late 80's acid sound (such as the new Aphex material) and in some cases by actually reproducing mid 80's style synth pop (Solvent, for example)" is to malign the name of Solvent, whose work I enjoy very much and who I unabashedly defend as a fan. That first Solvent/Lowfish split sounds a fair bit like the most recent Suction output. I love Solvent's music (and a lot of Suction) because of that -- because of Solvent's obviously personal and unique vision of music, however derivative one might think it to be. Not a whole lot about it has changed in the past 8 years, which suits me fine. To any half-observant historian of modern electronic music (and by that I mean simply one who can pay attention in between bong packings) the idea that Solvent's music exists as it does to "reclaim" some "indie fanbase" is absurd in light of the facts. Just because the bandwagon roars by someone who's been walking on the path since before that bandwagon left the assembly line doesn't mean the pedestrian would appreciate the ride. Perhaps you were confused about the facts from the get-go, or simply pulled a name out of a hat along your quest to indict pitchfork. Either way, I think you owe Solvent an apology. Nick PS Reviews, biased or unbiased, are worthless to me. P2P does me one better by letting me describe the music to myself. I get all the word of mouth info I need here on this list, on others, and in the company of a few choice connoisseurs. --- chatham@m-laboratories.net wrote: <snip> Then, a resurgence of interest in 70's and 80's music led the way for IDM artists and ex-indie rockers alike to find "innovation" in replaying old cliches. Note that several of pitchfork-media's reviews reflect this attitude by deifying early 80's artists such as The Fall, Depeche Mode, New Order, Joy Division, and various New Wave acts. With the exception of indie sweethearts Sonic Youth, Pavement, and their ilk, the music of the 90's have been erased from the indie definition of "cool." IDM artists have followed suit in attempt to reclaim their "indie" fanbase by recreating the late 80's acid sound (such as the new Aphex material) and in some cases by actually reproducing mid 80's style synth pop (Solvent, for example). <snip> ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2005-10-27 13:37Luis-Manuel GarciaHi all, Does anybody have some booking contacts for Drew Daniels as The Soft Pink Truth? A
From:
Luis-Manuel Garcia
To:
Indigo Danelions Merrygolds
Date:
Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:37:39 -0500
Subject:
[idm] Booking info for Drew Daniels?
Reply to:
[idm] Re: open letter to pitchforkmedia and "indie IDM" fans
permalink · <C1DBF341-2296-43EC-B005-CD7D971EAD86@uchicago.edu>
Hi all, Does anybody have some booking contacts for Drew Daniels as The Soft Pink Truth? A buddy of mine in Toronto is trying to book him, but not very sure where to start. Reply in private or on list, whatever you think is appropriate. thanks, Luis Chicago, IL p.s. Jackson and his Computer Band rocks my socks. Check out his debut, "Smash", on Warp. "Rock On", "Headache", "Cathodicca's Letter" are all great tracks. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org