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[idm] FW: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?

9 messages · 8 participants · spans 1 day · search this subject
2001-02-14 22:02...(Sunsp0t)... [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
└─ 2001-02-15 08:24Nuutti-Iivari Meriläinen Re: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
└─ 2001-02-15 21:14skism RE: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
2001-02-15 11:33Hew Maxwell Re: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
2001-02-15 21:40Kurt Behn RE: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
2001-02-15 22:09skism [idm] FW: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
└─ 2001-02-15 22:37Josh James Re: [idm] FW: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
2001-02-15 22:49zachary mastoon Re: [idm] FW: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
2001-02-16 00:46Philip Sherburne RE: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
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2001-02-14 22:02...(Sunsp0t)...I took the LSAT a few months ago, and while most of the passages are boring, I found one t
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...(Sunsp0t)...
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idm@hyperreal.org
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Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:2:30 -0500
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[idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
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I took the LSAT a few months ago, and while most of the passages are boring, I found one that had me thinking for awhile. Te object of the excercise was to analyze the argument and pick and answer a few questions regarding the logic, methods of reasoning, etc. The passage described a Japanese business exec who purchased a famous piece of art (let's just say the Mona Lisa because I can't remember) and claimed that he would have it buried with him upon his death. There was much public outrage, and the executive later said it was a joke. There were two arguments presented: Argument 1 (boiled down) Yes, by definition, the purchase of a work gives complete control over the item. Argument 2 (boiled down) Although there is an economic value and legal right, there is also a social value. Legal rights extend from moral codes and being a treasured part of our culture. What do you think? P.S. I am not instigating a war, but find this to be a fascinating question, and obviously has implications for music as well. ______________________ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Sunsp0t sunspot@subdimension.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-02-15 08:24Nuutti-Iivari MeriläinenOn Wed, 14 Feb 2001, ...(Sunsp0t)... wrote: > > Argument 1 (boiled down) > Yes, by definit
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Nuutti-Iivari Meriläinen
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Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:24:36 +0200 (EET)
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Re: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
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[idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
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On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, ...(Sunsp0t)... wrote:
quoted 10 lines Argument 1 (boiled down)> > Argument 1 (boiled down) > Yes, by definition, the purchase of a work gives complete control > over the item. > > Argument 2 (boiled down) > Although there is an economic value and legal right, there is also > a social value. Legal rights extend from moral codes and being a > treasured part of our culture. >
Walter Benjamin's ``The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction'' is a seminal essay on this subject. Everyone participating in a debate like this should read it and think about it for a while. The article was written in 1935 and may or may not directly translate to the discussion at hand, but it is a fascinating read. It is hard reading, but with time and thought it is a very, very powerful essay. You can find it all around the net, here's one URL: http://www.aber.ac.uk/~ednwww/Undgrad/ED10510/benjamin.html I'll quote a bit for those who don't have enough time or patience to read the whole essay: ------ BEGIN QUOTE ------ Even the most perfect reproduction of a work of art is lacking in one element: its presence in time and space, its unique existence at the place where it happens to be. This unique existence of the work of art determined the history to which it was subject throughout the time of its existence. This includes the changes which it may have suffered in physical condition over the years as well as the various changes in its ownership. The traces of the first can be revealed only by chemical or physical analyses which it is impossible to perform on a reproduction; changes of ownership are subject to a tradition which must be traced from the situation of the original. ... The situations into which the product of mechanical reproduction can be brought may not touch the actual work of art, yet the quality of its presence is always depreciated. This holds not only for the art work but also, for instance, for a landscape which passes in review before the spectator in a movie. In the case of the art object, a most sensitive nucleus - namely, its authenticity - is interfered with whereas no natural object is vulnerable on that score. The authenticity of a thing is the essence of all that is transmissible from its beginning, ranging from its substantive duration to its testimony to the history which it has experienced. Since the historical testimony rests on the authenticity, the former, too, is jeopardized by reproduction when substantive duration ceases to matter. And what is really jeopardized when the historical testimony is affected is the authority of the object. ... One of the foremost tasks of art has always been the creation of a demand which could be fully satisfied only later. The history of every art form shows critical epochs in which a certain art form aspires to effects which could be fully obtained only with a changed technical standard, that is to say, in a new art form. The extravagances and crudities of art which thus appear, particularly in the so-calleddecadent epochs, actually arise from the nucleus of its richest historical energies. ------ END QUOTE --- Please read the whole essay if the above two passages picqued your interest. I have found the essay to be both fascinating and correct, even though it mostly encompasses the visual arts and is almost 70 years old. And now for something not-so-completely different. It's... ** A DISCLAIMER: You could be offended by the following. I don't care. ** ** Good, argumentative comments are welcome, flames >/dev/null . ** I'll touch on the issue of P2P technologies like Napster as well: I think I have made my standing quite clear in my previous posts that I do not appreciate the way music is disseminated through technology to those who only seek to hoard it (collect it in numbers on their hard drives just to gloat on their existence and to promote their value as tradeable items like baseball cards). I hold originals very, very dear. If I want to listen to a record, I search for it, and if I find it I may or may not pay an arm and a leg for it, but I won't feel morally challenged because I didn't use a morally questionable method of obtaining the works of art I consume (although it is debatable whether the latest developments in DSP programming technologies can be constituted as art (or music, for that matter)). The usual counterargument is that the more the music spreads, the more people will actually buy it. I do not subscribe to this line of thought, because most people are not willing to pay if they don't have to (and please don't quote the sales figures of big companies - they do not apply to the question at hand - independent labels can't take it up the rear like huge music conglomerates can). The second counterargument is that the releases may be limited edition and very hard to get or not obtainable at all anymore - well, tough. If you really appreciate the music, you should be willing to search for it and pay for it. I welcome the death of Napster, and I would rather not see any more CDR trade posts on the list either. If thought simplistically, the wildfire spread of hard-to-find electronic music through P2P technologies like Napster is devaluing the collections of people like me, who spend time and money procuring the originals. And then people even brag about how many gigabytes of unreleased/hard-to-get material they have on the their hard disks. Granted, free flow of information is essential to the advancement of the information society at large, but works of art should be maintained as works of art, be they single originals like Rodin's or limited edition releases like Skam records, and thus appreciated and not devalued through infinitely reproducible digital copies that don't seem to incur any costs. In some instances with independent labels, the monetary losses are not the only things to consider - valueless digital copies also erode the culture (which some see as good since it challenges the established practices and values - I don't. Call me a square). Acts who haven't yet established themselves can use the leverage of the P2P technologies to make themselves known, which is a good thing since it is no longer up to the A&R people to decide what gets released and what doesn't. But when something _is_ released, it becomes a product to be sold in a limited quantity (represses notwithstanding) and thus should be duly appreciated. This is a thorny issue, and I am sure I haven't even touched the tip of the iceberg. Books have been and will be written on the subject. My views may seem narrow-minded to some, and you may respond with a flamethrower, but that is your right. I'll don my asbestos suit and wait for it. As I've probably written before (I can't remember who I could credit this quote to, but...), truth is plural by nature. My views are not immutable, and I've done my share of faux pas. This, even, maybe one of them. Cheers, -- nuutti-iivari meriläinen gordon at diversion dot org http colon slash slash www dot diversion dot org slash --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-02-15 21:14skismI agree with what Hew said, but there are some other obvious mistakes... Nuutti-Iivari Mer
From:
skism
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Nuutti-Iivari Meriläinen ,
Date:
Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:14:45 +0100
Subject:
RE: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
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Re: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
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I agree with what Hew said, but there are some other obvious mistakes... Nuutti-Iivari Meriläinen said...
quoted 18 lines > http://www.aber.ac.uk/~ednwww/Undgrad/ED10510/benjamin.html > > I'll quote a bit for those who don't have enough time or patience to > read the whole essay: > > ------ BEGIN QUOTE ------ > > Even the most perfect reproduction of a work of art is lacking in one > element: its presence in time and space, its unique existence at the place > where it happens to be. This unique existence of the work of art > determined the history to which it was subject throughout the time of its > existence. This includes the changes which it may have suffered > in physical > condition over the years as well as the various changes in its > ownership. The traces of the first can be revealed only by chemical or > physical analyses which it is impossible to perform on a reproduction; > changes of ownership are subject to a tradition which must be traced from > the situation of the original.
How is ownership of a piece of art relevant to the work itself? Or the fact that someone spilt a curry on a Picasso? does the ruined picasso become more "art" than the perfect reproduction that was made before the curry was spilt? (Extreme example I know, but the same holds true for normal erosion suffered sitting in some museum somewhere) Also, neither of these points have any baring on music. because all music is reproduction why should a legal reproduction hold more weight than an illegal one?
quoted 13 lines The situations into which the product of mechanical reproduction can be> The situations into which the product of mechanical reproduction can be > brought may not touch the actual work of art, yet the quality of its > presence is always depreciated. This holds not only for the art work but > also, for instance, for a landscape which passes in review before the > spectator in a movie. In the case of the art object, a most sensitive > nucleus - namely, its authenticity - is interfered with whereas no natural > object is vulnerable on that score. The authenticity of a thing is the > essence of all that is transmissible from its beginning, ranging from its > substantive duration to its testimony to the history which it has > experienced. Since the historical testimony rests on the authenticity, the > former, too, is jeopardized by reproduction when substantive duration > ceases to matter. And what is really jeopardized when the historical > testimony is affected is the authority of the object.
He semes to think that an original object of art holds some form of platonic "Essence", essences are a seriously outdated philosophical concept, as much 30 years ago as they are today. If it is impossible to tell the difference between an original and a forgery (With advances in art-restoration and computers this has come a long way in the last 30 years) then how can the experience of looking at/listening to/reading the piece of art be effected? It can't. Art is about the expreience inside the brains of the people experiencing the art not the pieces themselves. And objects of art cant have experiences, thats just stupid. Is a Bach CD not a work of art because it was not originally released on CD therefore the actual work of art must be the original sheet music or somesuch? I think not, the art that is music is the Sound. Sound does not exist outside of the human brain. The packaging might be pretty to look at, even in some cases art, but it has nothing at the end of the day to do with the music. Appreciation of music is not affected by the fact that it was originaly bought in a shop or wether it was downloaded off the internet.
quoted 11 lines The usual counterargument is that the more the music spreads, the more> The usual counterargument is that the more the music spreads, the more > people will actually buy it. I do not subscribe to this line of thought, > because most people are not willing to pay if they don't have to (and > please don't quote the sales figures of big companies - they do not > apply to the question at hand - independent labels can't take it up > the rear like huge music conglomerates can). The second counterargument is > that the releases may be limited edition and very hard to get or not > obtainable at all anymore - well, tough. If you really appreciate the > music, you should be willing to search for it and pay for it. I welcome > the death of Napster, and I would rather not see any more CDR trade posts > on the list either.
I think electronic music is an excellent example of why this point is invalid. There really is a ridiculously huge amount of it out there, much more so than other genres. It would be impossible (even if you're completley loaded) to buy everything that comes out. So Napster (and before that FTP) is an excellent way to enjoy lots of music you wouldn't otherwise have come across or been able to buy. Obviously independant labels need more suport from customers than the majors. But it's impossible for customers to support all the independants because of the amount of different stuff that's out there. I love music, making and listening to it is my faveourite passtime. And I'm not going to let my lack of money / inability to find stuff / inability of labels to rerelease stuff get in the way of my enjoyment of music. I will always buy music with my money, it's my first priority (after Guinness & Wine possibly), when I get the chance. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-02-15 11:33Hew MaxwellWell there's a whole load of things I don't agree with here, but it's nice to see someone
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Hew Maxwell
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Cc:
Date:
Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:33:01 -0000
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Re: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
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Well there's a whole load of things I don't agree with here, but it's nice to see someone giving it this much thought. I'll try to take my time with this response and try to make it slightly more meaningful than a flame. I'll take it point by point.
quoted 15 lines ** A DISCLAIMER: You could be offended by the following. I don't care. **>** A DISCLAIMER: You could be offended by the following. I don't care. ** >** Good, argumentative comments are welcome, flames >/dev/null . ** > > I'll touch on the issue of P2P technologies like Napster as well: I >think I have made my standing quite clear in my previous posts that I do >not appreciate the way music is disseminated through technology to those >who only seek to hoard it (collect it in numbers on their hard drives just >to gloat on their existence and to promote their value as tradeable >items like baseball cards). I hold originals very, very dear. If I want >to listen to a record, I search for it, and if I find it I may or may not >pay an arm and a leg for it, but I won't feel morally challenged because I >didn't use a morally questionable method of obtaining the works of art I >consume (although it is debatable whether the latest developments in DSP >programming technologies can be constituted as art (or music, for that >matter)).
I really don't understand how you can hold such a dichotomy in your mind. You object to people hoarding music and then a sentence later admit to hoarding it yourself. The only difference is that you hoard 'originals'. But this is recorded art we are talking about. There is no (negligible, anyhow... it is possible my copy is superior) difference between your original and my copy because your original is a copy. As for morals, they are relative and have nothing to do with art. If you are buying it second hand copy the artist gets nothing so how in god's name is that different to making a copy. And it is not debatable whether or not 'the latest developments in DSP programming technologies' consititute as art. If one artist and one 'reader' (listener) agree then it is art. Unless you want to use a very poncey definition of art and if you do, I'll stick with my culture, thanks.
quoted 11 lines The usual counterargument is that the more the music spreads, the more> The usual counterargument is that the more the music spreads, the more >people will actually buy it. I do not subscribe to this line of thought, >because most people are not willing to pay if they don't have to (and >please don't quote the sales figures of big companies - they do not >apply to the question at hand - independent labels can't take it up >the rear like huge music conglomerates can). The second counterargument is >that the releases may be limited edition and very hard to get or not >obtainable at all anymore - well, tough. If you really appreciate the >music, you should be willing to search for it and pay for it. I welcome >the death of Napster, and I would rather not see any more CDR trade posts >on the list either.
Trust me, I really appreciate my music. And, so that my favourite artists (or notartists as you would have it) can continue, I buy as much music as possible. But after that I have no dilemma about making tapes, minidiscs and using napster to get more music.
quoted 5 lines If thought simplistically, the wildfire spread of hard-to-find> If thought simplistically, the wildfire spread of hard-to-find >electronic music through P2P technologies like Napster is devaluing the >collections of people like me, who spend time and money procuring the >originals. And then people even brag about how many gigabytes of >unreleased/hard-to-get material they have on the their hard disks.
Bad one. But the answer is obvious. Start a hard disk collection yourself. It just sounds like you are jealous. That's like saying that rich people are bastards because they make me feel worse about being poor. (Not that I'm saying rich people aren't bastards ;)
quoted 9 lines Granted, free flow of information is essential to the advancement of the> Granted, free flow of information is essential to the advancement of the >information society at large, but works of art should be maintained as >works of art, be they single originals like Rodin's or limited edition >releases like Skam records, and thus appreciated and not devalued through >infinitely reproducible digital copies that don't seem to incur any costs. >In some instances with independent labels, the monetary losses are not the >only things to consider - valueless digital copies also erode the culture >(which some see as good since it challenges the established practices and >values - I don't. Call me a square).
We haven't proven any monetary losses yet, and I really really don't see how it's eroding the culture. Changing and increasing perhaps. Jeez, you are a square (read: elitist) Hmmm... I do actually take your points. But art is changing, it is being democratised. And changes in culture aren't really good or bad. Culture is what we are doing and that's that - we do what we like. I like this. All of it. That all came out as slightly incoherent, but I hope the main points came accross. (It's difficult to engage in serious dialogue when you have to look like you are working 4 out of every five minutes) Hew _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-02-15 21:40Kurt Behnmy response to the following lies after it: > the piece of art be effected? It can't. Art
From:
Kurt Behn
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IDM (E-mail)
Date:
Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:40:46 -0600
Subject:
RE: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
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my response to the following lies after it:
quoted 20 lines the piece of art be effected? It can't. Art is about the> the piece of art be effected? It can't. Art is about the > expreience inside > the brains of the people experiencing the art not the pieces > themselves. > And objects of art cant have experiences, thats just stupid. > > Is a Bach CD not a work of art because it was not originally > released on CD > therefore the actual work of art must be the original sheet music or > somesuch? > I think not, the art that is music is the Sound. Sound does not exist > outside > of the human brain. The packaging might be pretty to look at, > even in some > cases > art, but it has nothing at the end of the day to do with the music. > Appreciation of music is not affected by the fact that it was > originaly > bought > in a shop or wether it was downloaded off the internet.
i agree. but, that said, can't we conclude that since the 'art' itself is the sound in the context of the human brain, then when you dl something from napster, as soon as you play it and listen to it and enjoy it without paying for it, you're getting the art for free? and if you think it makes sense for the artist to be paid for you becoming an audience to that art, and if there isn't (philosophically) a difference between the art as packaged in a CD or LP or when its packaged in an MP3 file on my harddrive, shouldn't i pay for either one? i don't know, i'm feeling a little hungover, just a thought k --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-02-15 22:09skismdoh... did it again :) -----Original Message----- From: skism [mailto:cazeone@earthling.ne
From:
skism
To:
IDM List
Date:
Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:09:47 +0100
Subject:
[idm] FW: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
permalink · <NEBBLHHNMLJLMCOBJIHGEEMOCBAA.cazeone@earthling.net>
doh... did it again :) -----Original Message----- From: skism [mailto:cazeone@earthling.net] Sent: 15 February 2001 22:55 To: Kurt Behn Subject: RE: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value? Kurt siad...
quoted 11 lines i agree. but, that said, can't we conclude that since the 'art' itself is> i agree. but, that said, can't we conclude that since the 'art' itself is > the sound in the context of the human brain, then when you dl > something from > napster, as soon as you play it and listen to it and enjoy it > without paying > for it, you're getting the art for free? and if you think it makes sense > for the artist to be paid for you becoming an audience to that art, and if > there isn't (philosophically) a difference between the art as > packaged in a > CD or LP or when its packaged in an MP3 file on my harddrive, shouldn't i > pay for either one?
You certainly shouldn't pay napster, because the artist won't get any of the proceeds, even in the case of the majors - briteny spears probably wont see any of the napster subscription fees, but sony or whoever will. I dont have a problem with piracy (that's what it is) but i do have a problem when the pirates are profiting directly where the artist should be. But i made the point further down in my previous mail, that there is too much stuff out there for me to buy all of it. And i'm not going to let that interfere with my ability to enjoy it. So basically people who don't buy any music are fuckheads, but people who buy what they can and get the rest through piracy are ok. Im off now to put in a large order at warpmart... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-02-15 22:37Josh JamesWhat about people who use Napster to download stuff **because** they'd never buy it? I wou
From:
Josh James
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Date:
Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:37:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: [idm] FW: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
Reply to:
[idm] FW: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
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What about people who use Napster to download stuff **because** they'd never buy it? I would never buy Notorious B.I.G.'s Hypnotize, but I download it almost every time I smoke a bowl, then delete it after listening to it. Is that wrong? I normally use Napster to sample groups that get good reviews and if I like them, I buy their stuff. I go through the Solid Steel playlists on the ninjatune site and try to find mp3s by any of the groups on them. I usually don't have much luck, though. My biggest beef with Napster and most of the filesharing services is that they are obviously dominated by cheap bastards that collect music like baseball cards. When I originally heard about the mp3 format, the first thing I thought of was that finally I'd be able to listen to hard-to-find stuff like demos, rare live bootlegs, etc.. but it's not even close. I'd love to be able to find more out of print stuff. When I search for "Ice", I get... well, you know, every single Ice T, Ice Cube, Vanilla Ice, all kinds of other Ice, but not even stuff off of the lame Bad Blood cd. I noticed there are a few Solid Steel mixes on napster. Wonder what the Ninja guys think about that. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-02-15 22:49zachary mastoon>From: Josh James <ugly_and_mean@yahoo.com> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] FW:
From:
zachary mastoon
To:
,
Date:
Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:49:59 -0600
Subject:
Re: [idm] FW: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
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quoted 10 lines From: Josh James <ugly_and_mean@yahoo.com>>From: Josh James <ugly_and_mean@yahoo.com> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] FW: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value? >Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:37:53 -0800 (PST) > >What about people who use Napster to download stuff >**because** they'd never buy it? I would never buy >Notorious B.I.G.'s Hypnotize, but I download it almost >every time I smoke a bowl, then delete it after >listening to it. Is that wrong?
no, but it sure is pretty fucking funny! :)z _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-02-16 00:46Philip Sherburne1) >He semes to think that an original object of art holds some form of >platonic "Essence
From:
Philip Sherburne
To:
'idm@hyperreal.org'
Date:
Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:46:11 -0800
Subject:
RE: [idm] Towards an understanding of art and value?
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1)
quoted 3 lines He semes to think that an original object of art holds some form of>He semes to think that an original object of art holds some form of >platonic "Essence", essences are a seriously outdated philosophical >concept, as much 30 years ago as they are today.
Benjamin is actually questioning & problematizing that essence, indeed the very idea of "authenticity." (BTW, this essay is from the 30s, if I remember correctly - not the 70s). And if you believe that all artistic "essences" are bankrupt, I'd urge you to go stand in front of a Rothko. Painting, a pre-mechanical process, is an instance where the aura adheres to the object itself. 2)
quoted 4 lines The packaging might be pretty to look at, even in some cases>The packaging might be pretty to look at, even in some cases >art, but it has nothing at the end of the day to do with the music. >Appreciation of music is not affected by the fact that it was originaly >bought in a shop or wether it was downloaded off the internet.
Actually, a materialist account would argue that in fact packaging, distribution, and all other formal & economic contextualizers have just as much to do with the work of art. Art doesn't exist in a vacuum (although our reception of it, at times, could try to recreate that vacuum). In other words, as cultural objects age (whether CDs, scores, or artworks not tied to physical containers, like songs), history sticks to them like barnacles. 3) Finally, for a fascinating piece of music dealing with the idea of aura, the object and reproduction, check out Stefan Mathieu's "Wurmloch Variationen" (Ritornell), one of my favorite CDs this year. He records a piece on piano, redubs it 20 or so times, and includes 5 of those dubs on the CD, presenting a portrait of the work of art in decay. Phil --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org