IDM Mailing Archive

1998-01-22 14:50Philip Downey>You are putting Kraftwerk as inovative. That's like putting L.V. Bethowen >(i don't even

From:: Philip Downey <threnody@bu.edu>
To:: Idm List <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 22 Jan 98 09:50:47 -0500
Subject:: (idm) Sigh (kids today)

quoted 12 lines You are putting Kraftwerk as inovative. That's like putting L.V. Bethowen

>You are putting Kraftwerk as inovative. That's like putting L.V. Bethowen >(i don't even know how to spell it) as inovative. OK Black Dog is in >our century so it's allright. (but Kraftw..... come on). >You are promoting grandparents on the list and young people like >Simon Pykes who are the next generations of music makers, you >put them as LATTER category. Woow gee, thanks. > >C'mon , swich ON. > > >Rob's bro. >

As usual, your mountainous ignorance is appalling. I know, I know, you only care about new things, different things, and that's fine. I remember a similarly ridiculous post last year that was horrifyingly ignorant. And I'm not going to bother with yours and my opinion of Freeform--because the point of this flame is that you obviously know nothing about the history of music. How about some context here? Beethoven was an original. Read any book on music history. They all say that. 150 years of music historians is a good enough consensus for me. Beethoven's early stuff obviously picks up where Mozart left off, but then he goes on to invent this period of music (the Romantic one) that lasted another fifty or sixty years. Listen to all nine symphonies and see the drastic departure that begins with the Third. Have you ever been to a movie? The soundtrack is due to Beethoven more than 99% of the time. Kraftwerk then. Innovators. Definitely. Good. Yes. Tour de France is still a heart-stopper. Others on this list can comment better on them than I could, so I'll leave that to them. But before Kraftwerk, there wasn't anything recognizable as 'techno.' There was disco, prog rock, and W. Carlos. Came outta nowhere, friend. Not just that, it was also good. Maybe you're just trying to be flame bait and I've fallen for it. Maybe Rob's bro is a split personality, or perhaps you're just young. I'll grant that maybe you haven't had time to experience all this music, but don't even try commenting on it until you've heard it. (Ad hominem attacks, only 99 cents! Cheap and fun!) Back to your insular world, bro. Phil Downey "It's one thing to be open-minded and another to let your brains fall out." Gregory Benford, Matter's End

1998-01-22 16:06Carved from a Block of GoudaOn Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Philip Downey wrote: [Someone BESIDES PHILIP wrote this: > >You are p

From:: Carved from a Block of Gouda <kent@inav.net>
To:: Philip Downey <threnody@bu.edu>
Cc:: Idm List <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:06:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Sigh (kids today)
Reply to:: (idm) Sigh (kids today)

On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Philip Downey wrote: [Someone BESIDES PHILIP wrote this:

quoted 4 lines You are putting Kraftwerk as inovative. That's like putting L.V. Bethowen

> >You are putting Kraftwerk as inovative. That's like putting L.V. Bethowen > >(i don't even know how to spell it) as inovative. > > > As usual, your mountainous ignorance is appalling.

Nice turn of phrase.

quoted 7 lines Kraftwerk then. Innovators. Definitely. Good. Yes. Tour de France is

> > Kraftwerk then. Innovators. Definitely. Good. Yes. Tour de France is > still a heart-stopper. Others on this list can comment better on them > than I could, so I'll leave that to them. But before Kraftwerk, there > wasn't anything recognizable as 'techno.' There was disco, prog rock, and > W. Carlos. Came outta nowhere, friend. Not just that, it was also good. >

Actually, while I give them the nod as innovators, they didn't spring sui generis out of no where. They definitely came from a context of German Prog Rock at the time, along with Tangerine Dream and a host of others. And in the US, their track 'autobahn' was perhaps the most unlikely radio hit of all -- 18 minutes long, repetitive, sung in german? Yow! This in a year if I'm not mistaken, Terry Jacks had a big hit with "Seasons In the Sun." And while I'm splitting hairs, techno, while it owes it's robotic beats and futurism to Kraftwerk, owes just as much to disco and the more danceable end of R&B. And if you look REALLY hard, perhaps some aspect of Beethoven is in there as well ;-)

1998-01-22 15:39rwadivakaran@worldbank.org wrote: >but it's certainly fair to say that there wasn't anything

From:: rw <rw@goldengate.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:39:09
Subject:: Re: (idm) Sigh (kids today)

adivakaran@worldbank.org wrote:

quoted 4 lines but it's certainly fair to say that there wasn't anything that *sounded*

>but it's certainly fair to say that there wasn't anything that *sounded* >even >remotely like techno before KW came on the scene with their mid-70s >records.

Well, I dunno. Raymond Scott did some very techno/ambient/idm sounding stuff before that. I guess it depends how loosely you want to interpret "sounds like techno". RS had repetative rhythms, bloopy synths (many of which hand made before the likes of Moog and Buchla), etc, etc. And he did some music for old WB cartoons to boot! Check out: http://users.aol.com/DevilDrums/RS.html for more info. PS. buy a copy of the 3 CD set "Soothing Sounds for Baby". Amazing stuff and a perfect example of what im talking about: http://users.aol.com/DevilDrums/SSFB.htm -- Rob Williams</>fEEd</>Tempest rw@goldengate.net</>tempest@hyperreal.org

1998-01-22 19:36Philip EvansAt 9:50 AM 1/22/98, Philip Downey wrote: >>You are putting Kraftwerk as inovative. That's

From:: Philip Evans <aciddrop@earthlink.net>
To:: Idm List <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:36:42 -0700
Subject:: Re: (idm) Sigh (kids today)

At 9:50 AM 1/22/98, Philip Downey wrote:

quoted 12 lines You are putting Kraftwerk as inovative. That's like putting L.V. Bethowen

>>You are putting Kraftwerk as inovative. That's like putting L.V. Bethowen >>(i don't even know how to spell it) as inovative. OK Black Dog is in >>our century so it's allright. (but Kraftw..... come on). >>You are promoting grandparents on the list and young people like >>Simon Pykes who are the next generations of music makers, you >>put them as LATTER category. Woow gee, thanks. >> >>C'mon , swich ON. >> >> >>Rob's bro. >>

...snipping the parts where he bemoans the other guy's ignorance...

quoted 7 lines Kraftwerk then. Innovators. Definitely. Good. Yes. Tour de France is

> >Kraftwerk then. Innovators. Definitely. Good. Yes. Tour de France is >still a heart-stopper. Others on this list can comment better on them >than I could, so I'll leave that to them. But before Kraftwerk, there >wasn't anything recognizable as 'techno.' There was disco, prog rock, and >W. Carlos. Came outta nowhere, friend. Not just that, it was also good. >

...and falls right into the same trap! Before Kraftwerk, there was folk music, bachelor-pad exotica, Motown and the British Invasion. Rock'n'Roll as the beast it was to become was only beginning to rear it's ugly head. Prog Rock (as in Yes, Genesis, King Crimson) didn't come about for another couple of years, and Disco didn't happen until, oh, 4 to 6 years (depending on how you count) after Kraftwerk's first album. Kraftwerk's original mission was to create a Germanic, or at least European alternative to all the blues- and folk-based music current at the time. And no, it didn't come out of nowhere. This gets mentioned over and over again on this list, but Kraftwerk was merely continuing on a path already well-trodden by Stockhausen, Satie and other classical pioneers, and was part of a large movement which also included Tangerine Dream, Can, Van Der Graaf Generator, and a bunch of other wonky stuff you sometimes find in used bins in the better hippie stores. It was only in the early 80's that Kraftwerk looked around them, and discovered that young black kids in the ghetto (horrors!) had become their true offspring, and incorporated these kids' bastardizations into their own music. Hence, Tour De France. Home is where the stereo is! [ p h i l i p e v a n s g r a p h i c d e s i g n ] a c i d d r o p @ e a r t h l i n k . n e t v 2 1 3 9 6 2 1 9 5 8 f 2 1 3 4 6 9 1 6 3 9

1998-01-22 21:10Ashok Divakaran> And no, it didn't come out of nowhere. This gets mentioned over and over > again on this

From:: Ashok Divakaran <adivakaran@worldbank.org>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:10:36 +0000 (GMT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Sigh (kids today)
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Sigh (kids today)

quoted 9 lines And no, it didn't come out of nowhere. This gets mentioned over and over

> And no, it didn't come out of nowhere. This gets mentioned over and over > again on this list, but Kraftwerk was merely continuing on a path already > well-trodden by Stockhausen, Satie and other classical pioneers, and was > part of a large movement which also included Tangerine Dream, Can, Van Der > Graaf Generator, and a bunch of other wonky stuff you sometimes find in > used bins in the better hippie stores. It was only in the early 80's that > Kraftwerk looked around them, and discovered that young black kids in the > ghetto (horrors!) had become their true offspring, and incorporated these > kids' bastardizations into their own music. Hence, Tour De France.

Harsh! I don't think TdF is staggeringly different from the other stuff that KW was doing a few years earlier and I don't really hear the bastardizations you speak of. It's been said (forgot where) that KW were the grandaddies of *techno* and that Klaus Schulze was that of trance. I think the distinction is a bit sticky, but it's certainly fair to say that there wasn't anything that *sounded* even remotely like techno before KW came on the scene with their mid-70s records. The similarities with Stockhausen et al. (which are questionable to start with; the fact that KW were inspired by Stocky does not really mean that they shared the same aesthetic) end at best at the conceptual level. Ashok

quoted 6 lines Home is where the stereo is!

> > Home is where the stereo is! > > [ p h i l i p e v a n s g r a p h i c d e s i g n ] > a c i d d r o p @ e a r t h l i n k . n e t > v 2 1 3 9 6 2 1 9 5 8 f 2 1 3 4 6 9 1 6 3 9

1998-01-23 17:26CheOn Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Philip Evans wrote: > Before Kraftwerk, there was folk music, bachelo

From:: Che <zeus8@synthcom.com>
Cc:: Idm List <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:26:58 +0000 ()
Subject:: Re: (idm) Sigh (kids today)
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Sigh (kids today)

On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Philip Evans wrote:

quoted 8 lines Before Kraftwerk, there was folk music, bachelor-pad exotica, Motown and

> Before Kraftwerk, there was folk music, bachelor-pad exotica, Motown and > the British Invasion. Rock'n'Roll as the beast it was to become was only > beginning to rear it's ugly head. Prog Rock (as in Yes, Genesis, King > Crimson) didn't come about for another couple of years, and Disco didn't > happen until, oh, 4 to 6 years (depending on how you count) after > Kraftwerk's first album. Kraftwerk's original mission was to create a > Germanic, or at least European alternative to all the blues- and folk-based > music current at the time.

Prog Rock reared its ugly head in 1969. Tone Float came after that, though for all practical purposes, the 1st Kraftwerk album with any market impact was Autobahn. For that matter, it was the 1st Kraftwerk album to feature synths in a big way. (Remember when Ralf & Florian were mostly guitar & flute, & looked like hippies?)

quoted 9 lines And no, it didn't come out of nowhere. This gets mentioned over and over

Can you say "Don't Stop Planet Rock"? Also, The Kraftwerk influence on the Holy Trinity of Detroit (Atkins, May, Saunderson) cannot be understated. Cybotron reeks of Kraftwerk. "Infoworld" by M500 is the best Kraftwerk song not by Kraftwerk. Che

1998-01-24 18:06Ben CofferIn message <v02120d00b0ed30496d07@[207.217.3.114]>, Philip Evans <aciddrop@earthlink.net>

From:: Ben Coffer <ben@hybridgame.demon.co.uk>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:06:03 +0000
Subject:: Re: (idm) Sigh (kids today)
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Sigh (kids today)

In message <v02120d00b0ed30496d07@[207.217.3.114]>, Philip Evans <aciddrop@earthlink.net> writes

quoted 4 lines used bins in the better hippie stores. It was only in the early 80's that

>used bins in the better hippie stores. It was only in the early 80's that >Kraftwerk looked around them, and discovered that young black kids in the >ghetto (horrors!) had become their true offspring, and incorporated these >kids' bastardizations into their own music. Hence, Tour De France.

I remember reading in an magazine interview with one of the guys from Kraftwerk a few years ago where he said that he arrived in a club somewhere in america (can't remember where) and they were playing his track, "metal on metal" (i think it was that track, my memories a bit vague here) but it was only a short 3 or 4 minute track and after a while he realised it'd been going on for about 12 minutes now...which is when he found out about DJs doing beat matching with two copies of the same record, and repeating bits over and over again. That may have been when they found out about the whole scene that'd sprung from their music. -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions http://www.hybridgame.demon.co.uk/

(idm) Sigh (kids today)