IDM Mailing Archive

jif wrote:

quoted 3 lines and yeah, how are we supposed to deal with the ultra-generic transformers

> and yeah, how are we supposed to deal with the ultra-generic transformers > and stolen anime from the rephlex page, and all the stolen british > expressions in your vocabulary? those are authorship issues too...

I, for one, am sick of this silly little pissing match. You want to hear a story about authorship issues, here's one: Here in the good old US of A, Levis (the jeans people) are airing three commercials that feature hip new lifestyles. One of the spots has a jungle dj (who's name is ed, from alabama) playing in a hick bar, out in the middle of nowhere. In this spot, there is a 10 second chunk of 'mutant revisited' by DJ trace. Just about everyone into jungle knows this song. It was one of the biggest tracks of '96. Nico, who wrote the track, was told about the spot when he arrived in New York a few weeks ago. He knew nothing about it. His first stop on the big top tour was in San Francisco, which happened to be the home town of the ad agency that created those spots. When got to S.F., he went to the agency and asked to see the spot. They gave him the runaround for over a hour and then they showed him the spot but said the ad exec in charge of that account was not in. Upon viewing the spot, he was amazed that it was, in fact the track he wrote, unchanged. Another hour later, he was ushered into a office and was told by an ad exec that the music in that spot was created by a firm in New York who does all of their music, especially for the Levis spot. Nico was given a budget breakdown for the music, including fees for all the musicians who 'played' on the track, including a trumpet player, a drummer and a few others. He told them that there were no 'live' musicians on the track, it was all samples. They said, 'no, those ARE the people that played the instruments. Nico asked what the name of the track was, and the reply was, it didn't have one, but it definitely wasn't his track...it was an 'original' composition. He was then promptly ushered out of the office. Nico, being the big dork he is, had a portable dat in his pocket and recorded the whole episode. So he got fucked, (until he talks to his lawyer back in the uk). The sad thing is that isn't the first time he was fucked on this track. He said when he originally did the remix for emotif, all he got out of it was 50 quid, trace got a starter jacket and Ed Rush got nothing. For one of the biggest selling jungle singles of the year. Pretty fucked up, no? ------- The plot thickens... Another of the Levis spots has a jungle remix of a Erica Badu track done by a LA junglist and producer, Eric Hull, also know as 'e-sassin', the head of a small local label called soundsphere. Two nights ago, I told him the above story, he listened quietly and when I was done, said, 'fuck! They did the same thing to me!'. He said he submitted the remix to sony (or whatever label badu is on) and they ripped it off. He got nothing. ------- So there you go...There really isn't any point in yelling at each other about artist we care about, collaborating, credit and things like that. There's a lot more evil shit going on in the world... Word to the mothership, brock. np: Henry Mancini - 'Breakfast At Tiffanys' soundtrack

quoted 4 lines If you need Bjork to tell you what artists to listen to, well what can I

> If you need Bjork to tell you what artists to listen to, well what can I > say? Maybe you should start paying more attention to the list, we talk > about loads of good music and interesting artists daily...long before > bjork ever gets round to them - believe.

thats retarded. i dont need this list or bjork or anybody to tell me what to listen to, i just go to the record store and listen. hey, we remember you from your first days in the list, back when you were always asking everybody what everything sounded like. wasnt that the way you got into it? what i meant was, to a lot of people, it is their way of getting closer to idm through bjork's more accessible music you seem to think that idm is the final word in sophistication. i dont think that going from listening to say, indie rock to electronic is really an evolution. now thats your philosophy? --- its got machines, therefore its less primitive? sure i lack 2 or 3 of your years, but thanks to good guidance from my main record-provider and an actual interest in the music (regardless of how obscure it is, seemingly your top criteria), i have accumulated a good base of knowledge (and i am honestly not attacking you here --- i know youre on top of things and you know what? its not even important)

quoted 9 lines a lot of people

> > > a lot of people > > got led into idm by listening to björk, and shes probably what made YOU > > develop a more 'exotic' taste. > > hehe. Are you having a hard time realizing we don't all share your idm > experience? Just because you needed a bjork record to get you into plaid > doesn't mean everyone else did. >

listen--- just because youre probably the most idm-oriented kid in the wilds of orange county doesnt mean that on a global scale you rule the subject... my history teacher probably knows about rephlex, so dont be so full of yourself --- its not the toughest shit to dig out. why is it that your posts and your webpages revolve around four or five tightly connected (ie buddy-buddies) acts/labels? wait--- did liking aphex get you into rephlex therefore squarepusher all the way down to spymania? aphex and bjork are both on the same us label, the both make as much money and both collaborate with tons of people. sure, hes less famous, but by that hes not hard to find for starting kids like you and i were. im not defending bjork at all--- im just saying shes been helpful cause she got the capital and the taste. now that doesnt make her a more talented person --- but shes a good tool for all those artistes whove willingly collaborated with her, don't you think? shes like free air time on mtv.

quoted 4 lines oh urgently we will... what are you? the saviour of idm?

> >oh urgently we will... what are you? the saviour of idm? > > Yes, that's exactly what I am. Please worship me. >

that super eloquent --- better luck next time. but really, if i didnt read your every action on this list, id be so lost id probably still only know about the sugarcubes.

quoted 2 lines its not like

> > its not like > > bjork's destroying your precious genre or anything, she's publicising

it.

quoted 3 lines thanks but no thanks. one man's publicising is another man's...oh never

> > thanks but no thanks. one man's publicising is another man's...oh never > mind, let's not start this again.

which idm-related act would you rather see go top 40? bjork or the prodigy? ideally, i would say i want jenkinson to get there, but it wont happen. now--- what if bjork said she really liked (insert your favorite star) in an interview, and one of her fans just picked up on that and checked it out at the store? that'd be the start of a great 'idm-experience', wouldnt it? it takes people like bjork and stereolab and portishead to be the liaison between the two worlds... its as simple as that cause warp just dont shit out free samplers to every doorstep in the western world.

quoted 4 lines i

> > > i > > think how she chooses to work is not as evil as all those annoying > > half-assed side projects that just use their notoriety like mike&rich

and

quoted 3 lines stuff.

> > stuff. > > ya think? Oh well.

now you gotta think harder than that... for starters, you couldve at least called me ugly or something.

quoted 2 lines and yeah, how are we supposed to deal with the ultra-generic

> > > and yeah, how are we supposed to deal with the ultra-generic

transformers

quoted 8 lines and stolen anime from the rephlex page, and all the stolen british

> > and stolen anime from the rephlex page, and all the stolen british > > expressions in your vocabulary? those are authorship issues too... > > I love it :) Taking what is a friendly discussion about music down to > the level of personal attacks is always appreciated. Keep up the good > work. Anyhow, you try talking to english geezers all day in email and > see if you don't start talking like them, mate. >

thats good maybe you should stop networking, get out in the fresh air, build a circle of human, local friends you can share you little 'idm experience' with, go down to the record store and monopolise the listening booth for 6 hours --- im serious. just cause youre famous on the internet doesnt theres anything beyond that. when was the last time the idm list had any influence on the government, the environmental problems, crime rates, the economy, nature? im sure the internet is not the only place were you can be appreciated. get out of your little idm/cyber-dimension please. now sorry about the personal interlude... it was about your snobby attitude towards music. now lets go back to our friendly discussion. jif

quoted 2 lines good for them. I wasn't one of them. So don't imply that I was because I

> good for them. I wasn't one of them. So don't imply that I was because I > find it insulting.

so you were born with all that knowledge?

quoted 1 line then rock on, brother.

> then rock on, brother.

i was just using that example to illustrate another typical 'evolution' scenario.

quoted 2 lines aphex and

> > aphex and > > bjork are both on the same us label, the both make as much money and

both

quoted 3 lines collaborate with tons of people.

> > collaborate with tons of people. > > You are utterly demented.

probably, but you shouldve kept the sentence i wrote after that in your reply.

quoted 6 lines which idm-related act would you rather see go top 40?

> > > which idm-related act would you rather see go top 40? > > I could care less. Is there a point to all of this or do you just enjoy > hearing yourself talk? >

oh, and youre the one who's all like 'boohoo don't attack me'.

quoted 1 line now you gotta think harder than that... for starters, you couldve at

> > now you gotta think harder than that... for starters, you couldve at

least

quoted 6 lines called me ugly or something.

> > called me ugly or something. > > I know you're just dying for me to get down to that level but it's not > going to happen, pretty boy. I know it's hard for you to believe but > some people find it more interesting to talk issues instead of insults. >

i couldnt care less what level youre at, you live miles away. but i did like that way you got subsersive by calling me pretty boy --- honestly.

quoted 5 lines You know nothing about me or my friends and when I need some life advice

> You know nothing about me or my friends and when I need some life advice > I'll ask for it, jiffy. We WERE having a friendly discussion until you > wanted to make it personal. If in the future you have any other > brilliant commentary on my personal life I suggest you foward it along > to me instead of posting it to the entire list.

youre right, i know nothing about you and your friends --- i was just referring to how much your image on this list seems important to you. got it? take care now. no hard feelings, i mean it. jif

jesus... can you please take this to personal emails? it was funny for like... the first two posts. now it's just boring. oh, and annoying, too. alan.

quoted 2 lines subject... my history teacher probably knows about rephlex, so dont be

> subject... my history teacher probably knows about rephlex, so dont be > so

well im a science teacher and ive heard about musik aus strom. should i tell my sixth graders about this? cl

quoted 4 lines well im a science teacher and ive heard about musik aus strom. should i

> > well im a science teacher and ive heard about musik aus strom. should i > tell my sixth graders about this? > cl

please do... actually, that didnt have to do with teachers in general, just my particular history teacher. jif

quoted 6 lines MY POINT EXACTLY!

> MY POINT EXACTLY! > I compared him with Cylob, not with björk. My point being (for the 511th time) > YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE RICH TO MAKE CUTTING EDGE MUSIC (you used this as an > argument for the fact that I liked björks work) AND EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT YOU > CAN (cylob: not rich, unexciting music, black dog: not rich, fucking > cutting edge). Get it?

My implication when I mentioned money in the first place was that Bjork has the luxury of being cutting edge because she is a zillionare and can actually purchase whatever sound she wishes for a dollar amount while Cylob (or whoever, plug in your favorite struggling IDM artist) doesn't and can't - yet makes the music he believes in anyway. I was using this as an argument to refute your statement that Bjork was being more daring than the other artists you mentioned and I don't believe that to be the case when people are risking their lively hood and not just their image or a couple thousand record sales in relation to millions.

quoted 2 lines Why shouldn't I place Björk next to Autechre? I find the music as exiting.

> Why shouldn't I place Björk next to Autechre? I find the music as exiting. > I don't give a flying fuck about if it's underground or not.

You shouldn't place them next to one another because they don't do the same thing. Bjork doesn't have as hard a job as Autechre. You're the one who brought underground into the equation when you said "I'd say get lost you "undergrounders", this is far more daring than Cylob, Freeform or Music Aus Strom will ever be." Someone like Prince I would place along Autechre because he writes, produces, arranges, and performs everything himself - amd he's hardly underground. When bjork writes all the tracks, produces all the tracks and performs all the music herself then I'll say, yes, she belongs next to Autechre because she is doing just as much as they do. Allow me to quote randomly from a few other messages...

quoted 1 line both artists deserve respect under their own terms.

> both artists deserve respect under their own terms.

agreed. yet they are different terms.

quoted 3 lines without björk and her zillions of dollars, a lot of her 'starving'

> > without björk and her zillions of dollars, a lot of her 'starving' > collaborators would be nothing.

They'd be 'nothing?' Nothing in what sense? They'd be musicians and artists. I'd hardly call that 'nothing.'

quoted 3 lines c'mon, everyone knows gonzi's more interested in the names associated with

> c'mon, everyone knows gonzi's more interested in the names associated with > the music than the music itself - he even posted that he didn't have > _homogenic_ and he obviously hasn't heard it.

haha. More interested in the names? I'm always on the prowl for new and interesting artists regardless of names - in fact there is nothing i love more than hearing some brilliant music from someone I've never heard of before. If I do seem to talk about some artists more than others its because I've loved their output in the past - hardly a crime I should think. And no, I don't own the album yet, for all I know it's the greatest thing since sliced bread but that's not where my argument with frankie was. I assume if he likes it, it's probably pretty good.

quoted 1 line Bjork writes all her own stuff, she doesn't ape anyone else's sound

> Bjork writes all her own stuff, she doesn't ape anyone else's sound

Ok, I'll admit this was a bit harsh.

quoted 3 lines Bjork is the only other

> Bjork is the only other > woman I know of, who I regularly see down Metalheadz, Anokha and all of the > Rephlex/Warp nights

Her good taste should be applauded. It's just too bad she can't leave her checkbook at home :)

quoted 6 lines i dont see how you can even compare what the two do.

> i dont see how you can even compare what the two do. > > cylob is a producer/engineer or whatever he fancies himself to be. > > bjork is a singer/songwriter. >

whew, exactly - thank you.

quoted 3 lines what's silly is that I'm willing to bet 99% of the

> what's silly is that I'm willing to bet 99% of the > people in this argument actually enjoy listening to bjork; including > gonzi (correct me if I'm wrong)

Yes I used to be quite into bjork but i must admit my tastes have become a bit more exotic since then. Sorry if this thread is annoying for some of the listmembers, but I think as we begin to see more collaborations such as the things bjork has been doing we're going to be having to deal with these questions of authorship and who is really responsible for the music more and more. g-unz-e.

quoted 9 lines My implication when I mentioned money in the first place was that Bjork

>My implication when I mentioned money in the first place was that Bjork >has the luxury of being cutting edge because she is a zillionare and can >actually purchase whatever sound she wishes for a dollar amount while >Cylob (or whoever, plug in your favorite struggling IDM artist) doesn't >and can't - yet makes the music he believes in anyway. I was using this >as an argument to refute your statement that Bjork was being more daring >than the other artists you mentioned and I don't believe that to be the >case when people are risking their lively hood and not just their image >or a couple thousand record sales in relation to millions.

some might say that if you cant cut a decent groove without a zillion bucks you aint gonna cut one with a zillion bucks...

quoted 2 lines without björk and her zillions of dollars, a lot of her 'starving'

>> without björk and her zillions of dollars, a lot of her 'starving' >> collaborators would be nothing.

quoted 2 lines They'd be 'nothing?' Nothing in what sense? They'd be musicians and

>They'd be 'nothing?' Nothing in what sense? They'd be musicians and >artists. I'd hardly call that 'nothing.'

nothing to all those people who arent exactly 'connoisseurs' in idm, like you fresh. bjork's terms lay more in the education field. she has enough good taste to pick good collaborators that get known through her music. a lot of people got led into idm by listening to björk, and shes probably what made YOU develop a more 'exotic' taste.

quoted 4 lines Sorry if this thread is annoying for some of the listmembers, but I

>Sorry if this thread is annoying for some of the listmembers, but I >think as we begin to see more collaborations such as the things bjork >has been doing we're going to be having to deal with these questions of >authorship and who is really responsible for the music more and more.

oh urgently we will... what are you? the saviour of idm? its not like bjork's destroying your precious genre or anything, she's publicising it. i think how she chooses to work is not as evil as all those annoying half-assed side projects that just use their notoriety like mike&rich and stuff. and yeah, how are we supposed to deal with the ultra-generic transformers and stolen anime from the rephlex page, and all the stolen british expressions in your vocabulary? those are authorship issues too... you get real now, jif

quoted 5 lines They'd be 'nothing?' Nothing in what sense? They'd be musicians and

> >They'd be 'nothing?' Nothing in what sense? They'd be musicians and > >artists. I'd hardly call that 'nothing.' > > nothing to all those people who arent exactly 'connoisseurs' in idm, like > you fresh.

If you need Bjork to tell you what artists to listen to, well what can I say? Maybe you should start paying more attention to the list, we talk about loads of good music and interesting artists daily...long before bjork ever gets round to them - believe.

quoted 3 lines a lot of people

> a lot of people > got led into idm by listening to björk, and shes probably what made YOU > develop a more 'exotic' taste.

hehe. Are you having a hard time realizing we don't all share your idm experience? Just because you needed a bjork record to get you into plaid doesn't mean everyone else did.

quoted 1 line oh urgently we will... what are you? the saviour of idm?

>oh urgently we will... what are you? the saviour of idm?

Yes, that's exactly what I am. Please worship me.

quoted 2 lines its not like

> its not like > bjork's destroying your precious genre or anything, she's publicising it.

thanks but no thanks. one man's publicising is another man's...oh never mind, let's not start this again.

quoted 4 lines i

> i > think how she chooses to work is not as evil as all those annoying > half-assed side projects that just use their notoriety like mike&rich and > stuff.

ya think? Oh well.

quoted 3 lines and yeah, how are we supposed to deal with the ultra-generic transformers

> and yeah, how are we supposed to deal with the ultra-generic transformers > and stolen anime from the rephlex page, and all the stolen british > expressions in your vocabulary? those are authorship issues too...

I love it :) Taking what is a friendly discussion about music down to the level of personal attacks is always appreciated. Keep up the good work. Anyhow, you try talking to english geezers all day in email and see if you don't start talking like them, mate. cheerio, fresh. (btw, I accidently called Brock 'Bjork' yesterday on the phone. hehe. Does everyone know the next public space will feature live performances from DJ Spooky and Scanner? Price $10 at the Troubador. I forget the date.)

quoted 1 line wasnt that the way you got into it?

> wasnt that the way you got into it?

that and alot of fucking effort.

quoted 2 lines what i meant was, to a lot of people, it is their way of getting closer to

> what i meant was, to a lot of people, it is their way of getting closer to > idm through bjork's more accessible music

good for them. I wasn't one of them. So don't imply that I was because I find it insulting.

quoted 1 line you seem to think that idm is the final word in sophistication.

> you seem to think that idm is the final word in sophistication.

to my ears and at this moment in rockhistory I'd say it was. but what do I know?

quoted 2 lines i dontthink that going from listening to say,indie rock to electronic is really

> i dontthink that going from listening to say,indie rock to electronic is really > an evolution.

then rock on, brother.

quoted 1 line and i am honestly not attacking you here

> and i am honestly not attacking you here

oh really? Then try talking about the music instead of talking about me (see below).

quoted 3 lines why is it that

> why is it that > your posts and your webpages revolve around four or five tightly connected > (ie buddy-buddies) acts/labels?

Because I try to keep my posts (news,info,etc.) to things I know about instead of blabbing on about shit I don't haven't any clue on. You should try it sometime.

quoted 3 lines aphex and

> aphex and > bjork are both on the same us label, the both make as much money and both > collaborate with tons of people.

You are utterly demented.

quoted 1 line which idm-related act would you rather see go top 40?

> which idm-related act would you rather see go top 40?

I could care less. Is there a point to all of this or do you just enjoy hearing yourself talk?

quoted 2 lines now you gotta think harder than that... for starters, you couldve at least

> now you gotta think harder than that... for starters, you couldve at least > called me ugly or something.

I know you're just dying for me to get down to that level but it's not going to happen, pretty boy. I know it's hard for you to believe but some people find it more interesting to talk issues instead of insults.

quoted 5 lines thats good

> thats good > maybe you should stop networking, get out in the fresh air, build a circle > of human, local friends you can share you little 'idm experience' with, go > down to the record store and monopolise the listening booth for 6 hours --- > im serious.

You know nothing about me or my friends and when I need some life advice I'll ask for it, jiffy. We WERE having a friendly discussion until you wanted to make it personal. If in the future you have any other brilliant commentary on my personal life I suggest you foward it along to me instead of posting it to the entire list. toodles, gonzi. (ps fuck off. <- sorry, I couldn't hold it in any longer)