IDM Mailing Archive

On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Adrian Cogger wrote:

quoted 3 lines it seems like their output is getting less interesting every release.

> it seems like their output is getting less interesting every release. > what's their last new artist or thing they came up with? > their losing their identity <><>

Proof, if proof were needed that WARP are _not_ losing it: Blech. One of the best compilation/mix CDs ever, highlighting new and old stuff from the label. Certainly a great improvement over the early WARP compilations which were simply collections of tracks from earlier 12" singles. Red Snapper. Prince Blimey. A couple of irritating samples apart ("Last One") this is a great album and I doubt you'll find anything else like it around at the moment Squarepusher. Port Rhombus. And an album to come. Can it better "Feed me weird things"? Apparently Warp have cranked up the quality control knob to unheard of levels for this one... Autechre. Oh come on, need I say more. Autechre's 4th album is due for release in the new year. Mike Ink "Paroles". Wicked track. and by the way, just like PFM/Q project, it looks like "Paroles" and "Polka Trax" are 2 separate 12"s but just one CD. (though by a single artist) Jimi Tenor. I guess not everyone is going to go for this stuff but he's great. A real showman and unique music! Nightmares on Wax "Smoker's Delight". A fair few months old now but this is going to be one of _the_ classic chill-out albums. As for new names, well Freeform, Mira Calix, Jimi Tenor, Squarepusher and Mike Ink are all either new or new-to-WARP artists. If you want a "direction" or "identity" then I think "innovation" sums it up. The list above is consistent in this area if in no other. I think it is good that you can't pin down a "Warp Sound" any more (OK so you might bunch Aphex, Autechre, Disjecta, Jake Slazenger, Freeform together some of the time, but where would Red Snapper and Sympletic fit in?) Too many labels fall into the trap of ending up with every release sounding the same, because that is what they think their customers expect. Then that style fades, and hey, so does the label, so the owners launch a "new" label with a "new approach" which is just the same approach but with a different sound. We cannot expect the latest "banging" or "uplifting" club classic mega-hit from WARP. This tends to mean there is no gloss of excitement, no instant gratifcation, but instead, listen closer and feed your mind. Perhaps WARP does need something like this. A big shiny hit to get a wider audience talking about the label again. But I just don't see them signing the likes of BBE do you? As John Martinko said, the whole "techno" genre has gone from being easy to identify to becoming so disparate that no one label or individual can possibly follow it fully. OK WARP may have its ups and downs (Black dog and Disjecta albums seem to be bones of contention for many) but I think anyone who dismisses the labels current situation on the basis of a few disparate releases is getting it wrong somewhere. I admit, I'm a big WARP fan and have been for a long time, but I too have been mildly disappointed by some releases; "Adverts" for one, and I'm not sure about this "milkman" business either. Woodenspoon was good but didn't live up to the hype, and maybe Freeform didn't fulfil his promise with his first Warp EP. But far better this than watching a lebel degenerate into a series of dreary plod-house releases, cheezy trance, or soft-focus ambient trip-hop, or whatever, eh? And what with running the club nights at Blech, touring Europe this summer, and the very promising looking new Web site (with Mail-Order too we are told), I think WARP are going from strength to strength. <rant mode off> J ^ __________ ________.__/_____ _||_/ James Skilton aka Steady J _[]/_____________[.__\____-_ DJ and Party Animal | | Part Time Hedonist |____________________________| Full Time Technohead |__|-' '-|__| jamess@ftp.com Autechre and SKAM discogs: http://subnet.virtual-pc.com/~sk393820/

quoted 2 lines Blech. One of the best compilation/mix CDs ever, highlighting

>Blech. One of the best compilation/mix CDs ever, highlighting >new and old stuff from the label.

Highlighting new stuff, with a couple of token old tracks thrown in.

quoted 3 lines Red Snapper. Prince Blimey. A couple of irritating samples apart

>Red Snapper. Prince Blimey. A couple of irritating samples apart >("Last One") this is a great album and I doubt you'll find anything >else like it around at the moment

Not having heard the album I can't argue with you, but I can ask in what way it differs from all those records on Ninja Tune, Mo'Wax, and Wall of Sound. (Not to mention all those acid-jazz labels I don't know the names of.)

quoted 2 lines Squarepusher. Port Rhombus. And an album to come. Can it better

>Squarepusher. Port Rhombus. And an album to come. Can it better >"Feed me weird things"?

Let's hope so. Maybe he'll finally come up with some tracks that go somewhere. ("Ooh! Another one that goes cheesy bit-mad drums-cheesy bit!")

quoted 2 lines Apparently Warp have cranked up the quality

>Apparently Warp have cranked up the quality >control knob to unheard of levels for this one...

They'll have to have. Jenkinson has potential. That's all he's shown me so far.

quoted 1 line Mike Ink "Paroles". Wicked track.

>Mike Ink "Paroles". Wicked track.

As wicked as "Bug in the Bassbin"? (To name another recently licensed track that Warp probably could've picked up.)

quoted 2 lines Jimi Tenor. I guess not everyone is going to go for this stuff

>Jimi Tenor. I guess not everyone is going to go for this stuff >but he's great. A real showman and unique music!

Each to his own.

quoted 1 line As for new names, well Freeform, Mira Calix,

>As for new names, well Freeform, Mira Calix,

What's the point? Don't they already *have* Autechre?

quoted 2 lines If you want a "direction" or "identity" then I think "innovation&

>If you want a "direction" or "identity" then I think "innovation" sums >it up.

I think you can split most recent Warp output into two groups: post-Aphex/Autechre stuff (Freeform, Disjecta, RDJ and Ae themselves) and "ironic" retropastiche (Tenor, Elecktroids, Slazenger). I'm not very interested in either group - I have no need for knockoffs in the first case (but I'll still buy the originals) and in the second case, as I've said before, irony is no substitute for quality.

quoted 3 lines Too many labels fall into the trap of ending up with every

>Too many labels fall into the trap of ending up with every >release sounding the same, because that is what they think their >customers expect.

See above - I think it's interesting that you dislike 'Music for Adverts' since it's one of the few recent releases on Warp that doesn't fit either of those moldy molds. C. -- cspot@hyperreal.com (Chris.Hilker)

On Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:42:21 -0700 (PDT), "Chris.Hilker" <cspot@hyperreal.com> wrote:

quoted 6 lines Red Snapper. Prince Blimey.

>>Red Snapper. Prince Blimey. > >Not having heard the album I can't argue with you, but I can ask in what >way it differs from all those records on Ninja Tune, Mo'Wax, and Wall of >Sound. (Not to mention all those acid-jazz labels I don't know the names >of.)

Chris you should know better than to comment 'unseen'... Prince Blimey bears absolutely no resemblance to anything released on those labels.

quoted 2 lines Let's hope so. Maybe he'll finally come up with some tracks that go somewhere.

>Let's hope so. Maybe he'll finally come up with some tracks that go somewhere. >("Ooh! Another one that goes cheesy bit-mad drums-cheesy bit!")

Cheesy bits are vastly under-rated. g.

On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, Chris.Hilker wrote:

quoted 4 lines Squarepusher. Port Rhombus. And an album to come. Can it better

> >Squarepusher. Port Rhombus. And an album to come. Can it better > >"Feed me weird things"? > Let's hope so. Maybe he'll finally come up with some tracks that go somewhere. > ("Ooh! Another one that goes cheesy bit-mad drums-cheesy bit!")

heresy! burn him! burn him! actually, i see what you're saying. some of the squarepusher stuff (esp on "feed me weird things") kind of goes on for a bit, freaks out, then goes on some more. "conumber" and "port rhombus" don't seem to have this problem, tho.

quoted 3 lines Apparently Warp have cranked up the quality

> >Apparently Warp have cranked up the quality > >control knob to unheard of levels for this one... > They'll have to have. Jenkinson has potential. That's all he's shown me so far.

not everyone falls out of the womb as a full-fledged musical genius. sit back and watch him develop, mon; i still think he's one of the most interesting musicians around atm. i think it's interesting that you see such a similarity between a lot of the new warp artists. i am getting a wee bit burnt on AeFX type stuff, which is why i'm probably so enamored of neotropic lately (78 minutes/$15 bucks, for those who care :b). unh! [grievous] [sloth code: S++] [http://onramp.uscom.com/~grievous] ["my revelation causes revolution... ] [ ...while my sound system brings noise pollution"]

James Skilton wrote:

quoted 2 lines Autechre. Oh come on, need I say more. Autechre's 4th album

> Autechre. Oh come on, need I say more. Autechre's 4th album > is due for release in the new year.

I think Autechre's music is very boring since most of their tracks are nothing more than a bunch of loops smeared out forever. The build-up of an Ae-track seems to usually involve a new sample every 128 bars. Also they don't seem to have released anything interesting before Tri Repetae (which, I assume, means 'three times as repetitive') so I just don't get the excitement. If it's the "dark brooding atmosphere" that turns you on then there tons of good music that is just as dark & brooding. Only it's good, too, like "Hex" by Bark Psychosis. Pascal. IMHO

On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, Pascal Haakmat wrote:

quoted 8 lines James Skilton wrote:

> James Skilton wrote: > > Autechre. Oh come on, need I say more. Autechre's 4th album > > is due for release in the new year. > > I think Autechre's music is very boring since most of their tracks are > nothing more than a bunch of loops smeared out forever. The build-up of > an Ae-track seems to usually involve a new sample every 128 bars. >

I think you might be missing the point. IMHO, Autechre is one of the few outfits who create sounds/noises/rhythms that are actually worthy of being looped. Take the beginning of the first track off of Tri Repetae. That's a completely original loop, which-to my ears-is not only incredibly interesting but really grooves.(There are people who would make an entire track out of just such a loop and a few chords.) And when Autechre lay on that wicked second loop six bars later, it sounds like an electronic abstraction of those crazy distorted old Mike P. drum loops. On top of this, they slowly build a melody/chord progression that I think *defines* "dark brooding atmosphere." And this is just one track. I assume you're exaggerating when you say 128, but Autechre is innovating in this respect as well. Listen to track 1 of the Garbage EP for stuff that'll confuse your tapping foot. At the end of track 2 of Key Nell, the strings are in one tempo, and the fucked-up cut-up voice rhythms are in another. The last track on Key Nell has a chord progression that's 18 bars long instead of 8 or 16 like you would expect.

quoted 4 lines Also they don't seem to have released anything interesting before Tri

> Also they don't seem to have released anything interesting before Tri > Repetae (which, I assume, means 'three times as repetitive') so I just > don't get the excitement. >

...are we faulting them for getting better? my $.02 -Arjun

Pascal Haakmat wrote on Wed, 23 Oct 96 17:49:12 BST :

quoted 3 lines I think Autechre's music is very boring since most of their tracks are

> I think Autechre's music is very boring since most of their tracks are > nothing more than a bunch of loops smeared out forever. The build-up of > an Ae-track seems to usually involve a new sample every 128 bars.

But what loops, what sounds. Unique sounds, subtle backdrops. And listen closer. The sounds change and morph all the time

quoted 5 lines Also they don't seem to have released anything interesting before Tri

> Also they don't seem to have released anything interesting before Tri > Repetae (which, I assume, means 'three times as repetitive') so I just > don't get the excitement. If it's the "dark brooding atmosphere" that > turns you on then there tons of good music that is just as dark & > brooding. Only it's good, too, like "Hex" by Bark Psychosis.

Autechre can be dark and brooding, or light and uplifting, or tear-jerkingly beautiful, or get-up-on-your-feet-and-dance energetic. I am not looking for one particular mood, I am just continuously delighted by the uniqueness of the sound that they make. imho, of course :) J ^ __________ ________.__/_____ _||_/ James Skilton aka Steady J _[]/_____________[.__\____-_ DJ and Party Animal | | Part Time Hedonist |____________________________| Full Time Technohead |__|-' '-|__| jamess@ftp.com Autechre and SKAM discogs: http://subnet.virtual-pc.com/~sk393820/

Arjun wrote:

quoted 3 lines I think Autechre's music is very boring since most of their tracks are

>> I think Autechre's music is very boring since most of their tracks are >> nothing more than a bunch of loops smeared out forever. The build-up of >> an Ae-track seems to usually involve a new sample every 128 bars.

quoted 3 lines I think you might be missing the point. IMHO, Autechre is one of the few

>I think you might be missing the point. IMHO, Autechre is one of the few >outfits who create sounds/noises/rhythms that are actually worthy of being >looped.

[...]

quoted 6 lines I assume you're exaggerating when you say 128, but Autechre is innovating

>I assume you're exaggerating when you say 128, but Autechre is innovating >in this respect as well. Listen to track 1 of the Garbage EP for stuff >that'll confuse your tapping foot. At the end of track 2 of Key Nell, the >strings are in one tempo, and the fucked-up cut-up voice rhythms are in >another. The last track on Key Nell has a chord progression that's 18 bars >long instead of 8 or 16 like you would expect.

I'm totally down with this - although Autechre's tunes are loop-based, the textures lend themselves well to repetition. Besides, they tend to tweak the sounds to add dynamics to the phrasing of the beats/melodies. And you can't fault them for rhythmic innovation - 'Rsdio' and the Key Nell EP are great examples of this. I can't wait for their next full-length! GD Onnow: 'La reine Margot': period French drama in a Gen X/grunge stylee - yuck! Isabelle Adjani could do better...

Arjun wrote:

quoted 1 line I think you might be missing the point. IMHO, Autechre is one of the

>I think you might be missing the point. IMHO, Autechre is one of the

few

quoted 1 line outfits who create sounds/noises/rhythms that are actually worthy of

>outfits who create sounds/noises/rhythms that are actually worthy of

being

quoted 1 line looped.

>looped.

I guess I'm missing the point, yes. But I think the point is moot in the first place. What's the point in layering loops? After hearing each loop once, well, you can just recreate the entire piece in your head. It's just addition/subtraction. If there is no progression over time other than this layering thing, well, then I'd just as rather not waste time sitting through the entire composition where it fundamentally exists of a twenty second loop. Show me the twenty second loop and I'll make infinite variations on it without ever considering any of these variations to be 'music'.

quoted 3 lines Take the beginning of the first track off of Tri Repetae. That's

>Take the beginning of the first track off of Tri Repetae. That's >a completely original loop, which-to my ears-is not only incredibly >interesting but really grooves.(There are people who would make an

entire

quoted 1 line track out of just such a loop and a few chords.) And when Autechre

>track out of just such a loop and a few chords.) And when Autechre

lay on

quoted 2 lines that wicked second loop six bars later, it sounds like an electronic

>that wicked second loop six bars later, it sounds like an electronic >abstraction of those crazy distorted old Mike P. drum loops. On top

of

quoted 1 line this, they slowly build a melody/chord progression that I think

>this, they slowly build a melody/chord progression that I think

*defines*

quoted 1 line "dark brooding atmosphere." And this is just one track.

>"dark brooding atmosphere." And this is just one track.

What's so incredibly interesting about a loop? It appears to me what Ae-fans enjoy the most about Ae-music is the 'feel-good' vibe to it. It's all very groovy and has lots of bass and thick synth-textures. It literally feels good when the oscillations hit your skull. But this is more of a biology topic. Well, the construction of our ears and brains makes us enjoy some sounds more than others. And you can use this in your music. But it is not music in itself. Luke Slater's "7th Plain" springs to mind.. It has a couple of very well-executed tracks that illustrate the use of sound to make things feel good, like icing on a cake.

quoted 1 line I assume you're exaggerating when you say 128, but Autechre is

>I assume you're exaggerating when you say 128, but Autechre is

innovating

quoted 1 line in this respect as well. Listen to track 1 of the Garbage EP for

>in this respect as well. Listen to track 1 of the Garbage EP for

stuff

quoted 1 line that'll confuse your tapping foot. At the end of track 2 of Key Nell,

>that'll confuse your tapping foot. At the end of track 2 of Key Nell,

the

quoted 1 line strings are in one tempo, and the fucked-up cut-up voice rhythms are

>strings are in one tempo, and the fucked-up cut-up voice rhythms are

in

quoted 1 line another. The last track on Key Nell has a chord progression that's 18

>another. The last track on Key Nell has a chord progression that's 18

bars

quoted 1 line long instead of 8 or 16 like you would expect.

>long instead of 8 or 16 like you would expect.

These are all arbitrary numbers. You don't get a 'song' by making a chord progression that's 18 bars long. You make a chord progression that's 18 bars long because the music demands it. At least, ideally. But the Ae-music is so superficial.. It does not, at any one time, seem to demand anything. It's just feel-good thumps and moans and groans.

quoted 1 line ...are we faulting them for getting better?

>...are we faulting them for getting better?

I'm faulting them for calling music what is actually a computer language. IPascalHO.

On 24 Oct 1996 phaakmat@marketique.nl wrote:

quoted 2 lines What's the point in layering loops? After hearing each loop once,

> What's the point in layering loops? After hearing each loop once, > well, you can just recreate the entire piece in your head.

This is a problem? (A problem with the *music*, I mean.)

quoted 5 lines It's just

> It's just > addition/subtraction. If there is no progression over time other than > this layering thing, well, then I'd just as rather not waste time > sitting through the entire composition where it fundamentally exists > of a twenty second loop.

I disagree with you 100% about this. Such a composition does *not* "fundamentally exist" as only a 20 second loop. In effect, what you're saying is that meaning in music can only be found in pitch and rhythm structures--either that repetition has no effect on the listener, or that this effect is totally insignificant. I like the effect of repetition; if you don't in this case, that's your opinion, but to reduce a repetition-driven musical process to just a short loop... I can't see how that assertion is anything other than simply incorrect.

quoted 3 lines But the Ae-music is so superficial.. It does not, at any one time,

> But the Ae-music is so superficial.. It does not, at any one time, > seem to demand anything. It's just feel-good thumps and moans and > groans.

You have your opinion; in *mine*, I'd rather hear "feel-good thumps..." etc. than *self-consciously* demanding music. Most days of the week, anyway. To me, in fact, "just feel-good" music is *more valuable* and *more meaningful* than, what should we call it, "profound" music. Or, I can't stand profundity unless it also makes me feel good. If you want to see that as superficial, you're welcome to, but I'll still think you're dead wrong about it! J PS Ironically, the first time I heard Autechre, I thought it wasn't feel-good *enough*, but that was quite a while ago, well before "Tri Repetae"... perhaps I should give that one a listen... ________ \ / | "Sweetie...... sweetie. How come when she put H. James Harkins | the phone to her ear, all I could hear was the jharkins@acpub.duke.edu | ocean?" -- Edina Monsoon on her \/ | ex-husband Marshall's latest girlfriend

Arjun wrote:

quoted 3 lines I think you might be missing the point. IMHO, Autechre is one of the few

>I think you might be missing the point. IMHO, Autechre is one of the few >outfits who create sounds/noises/rhythms that are actually worthy of being >looped.

I guess I'm missing the point, yes. But I think the point is moot in the first place. What's the point in layering loops? After hearing each loop once, well, you can just recreate the entire piece in your head. It's just addition/subtraction. If there is no progression over time other than this layering thing, well, then I'd just as rather not waste time sitting through the entire composition where it fundamentally exists of a twenty second loop. Show me the twenty second loop and I'll make infinite variations on it without ever considering any of these variations to be 'music'.

quoted 8 lines Take the beginning of the first track off of Tri Repetae. That's

>Take the beginning of the first track off of Tri Repetae. That's >a completely original loop, which-to my ears-is not only incredibly >interesting but really grooves.(There are people who would make an entire >track out of just such a loop and a few chords.) And when Autechre lay on >that wicked second loop six bars later, it sounds like an electronic >abstraction of those crazy distorted old Mike P. drum loops. On top of >this, they slowly build a melody/chord progression that I think *defines* >"dark brooding atmosphere." And this is just one track.

What's so incredibly interesting about a loop? It appears to me what Ae-fans enjoy the most about Ae-music is the 'feel-good' vibe to it. It's all very groovy and has lots of bass and thick synth-textures. It literally feels good when the oscillations hit your skull. But this is more of a biology topic. Well, the construction of our ears and brains makes us enjoy some sounds more than others. And you can use this in your music. But it is not music in itself. Luke Slater's "7th Plain" springs to mind.. It has a couple of very well-executed tracks that illustrate the use of sound to make things feel good, like icing on a cake.

quoted 6 lines I assume you're exaggerating when you say 128, but Autechre is innovating

>I assume you're exaggerating when you say 128, but Autechre is innovating >in this respect as well. Listen to track 1 of the Garbage EP for stuff >that'll confuse your tapping foot. At the end of track 2 of Key Nell, the >strings are in one tempo, and the fucked-up cut-up voice rhythms are in >another. The last track on Key Nell has a chord progression that's 18 bars >long instead of 8 or 16 like you would expect.

These are all arbitrary numbers. You don't get a 'song' by making a chord progression that's 18 bars long. You make a chord progression that's 18 bars long because the music demands it. At least, ideally. But the Ae-music is so superficial.. It does not, at any one time, seem to demand anything. It's just feel-good thumps and moans and groans.

quoted 1 line ...are we faulting them for getting better?

>...are we faulting them for getting better?

I'm faulting them for calling music what is actually a computer language. IPascalHO.