IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 6 lines I agree with this completely. Right now, beat matching is a very

>>I agree with this completely. Right now, beat matching is a very >>mechanical (humor me, if you will) skill. There's a lot more to it >>than just matching beats, but this is what must occupy most of your >>time while you're mixing. > >*derisive snort* not if you're a GOOD dj...

This is _exactly_ what I'm talking about. Right now, you _have_ to be a technically good dj before you can start improving on such things as composition, logic of progression, tonality, etc. This makes dj'ing something limited to those who have the time and effort to first learn the technical art of being a dj. New technological advancements could democratize the industry and 'kill it' in a way. The derisive snort is also exactly what I'm talking about. DJ's realize that being a good, recognized DJ means something. It means you've proven yourself in a way most others can't. In my version of the future, being a good, recognized DJ won't mean that you had negotiated any rite of passage but simply that you have what it takes up top - an emphasis I would like to see more of. Tai, posing as a poser. ___ (:)====/__/\=(:)(:)============================(:)====================(:) |\| _\_ \ \|\||=| Tai Nguyen |\| email address: |=| |=| /__/\_\ \=||\| Cornell University |=| thn1@cornell.edu |\| |\| / /\ __/\|(:)============================(:)====================(:) |=|/ / /\ \ |=||=| "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, |=| |\/__/ \_\/ |\||\| and statistics." |\| |=\__\/\ \ |=||=| - Mark Twain |=| (:)==\__\/===(:)(:)===================================================(:)

quoted 1 line

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I don't agree, actually. right now, DJ CD players are quite a bit more expensive than buying two 1200's plus mixer. so the startup cost for vinyl DJing is lower. i expect that maybe someday the prices will come into line. at that point, i might start to get scared. well, i don't believe that instant start stuff. admittedly, i haven't played with the CD models enough to be an expert but so far I find it *really* hard to start the CD accurately, whereas vinyl is simple. besides, what if the point at which you want to start the song isn't under the laser pickup at the moment you hit "play"... you have to wait for the CD to rotate around to that point... <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< This is incorrect. The Denon CD players offer a .01 second start time because they have a buffer that eliminates the need for the CD player to wait for rotation of the disk. My Denon will reliably start every time exactly in sync, provided I press the play button exactly on the beat. Also, I purchased my Denon used for $700, about the same price as 2 1200's (without a mixer). DN2000Fs are going for about $950 new from mail order places. Another reason I buy CDs, which I forgot to mention before, is that I can purchase a lot of good compilations for around $22 (import) a piece that might have 4 or 5 good songs on them. A lot of stuff you find on compilations is garbage, I agree, but those 4 or 5 songs would have cost me $40 or $50 if I purchased them as vinyl singles. Occasionally, I'll even find a compilation that has 8, 9, or 10 really good songs on it. This is rare, I'll admit, but that's a *huge* savings over buying imported vinyl. If there is a new single that's good that I can't get on CD, I'll buy it on vinyl though, so for this reason, I buy more CDs than I do vinyl, but you can't really play all the newest, best stuff at this point if you limit yourself to CDs only. When I can afford it and the price has come down a bit, I'll start copying my best vinyl stuff onto CD, so I have it in an easier to use (imo) format. You can get CD burners now for $3995 retail (not sure what the street price is) and the blanks are $10. When this price comes down further, it'll be much more feasible to get all my vinyl stuff on CD. I think it was Francois Dion that mentioned a guy in LA that will do one-offs for $30 if you provide a DAT master. I'm not sure if I remember that correctly, but Francois, could you re-enlighten me on the details of that one? I agree with your point that in order for a musician that makes underground music to get their music heard, they have to press vinyl and give them away to some good DJs that will play it for lots of people. That's the way it is right now, but if it's becoming so cheap to buy CD players, and CD compilations, then we'll probably see tons of new digital DJs in the next few years that will open up new ways for aspiring artists to get their stuff heard. It's only a matter of time before CD technology is so cheap that it might even be cheaper than turntables. Technics hasn't changed their prices all that much in the last 10 years or so. I apologize if I'm sounding rude, and you have good valid points. I'm just trying to better understand how other underground DJs think on these kind of issues. Thanks for your time, Luke

quoted 5 lines This is incorrect. The Denon CD players offer a .01 second start

>This is incorrect. The Denon CD players offer a .01 second start >time because they have a buffer that eliminates the need for the CD >player to wait for rotation of the disk. My Denon will reliably >start every time exactly in sync, provided I press the play button >exactly on the beat.

huh, it always seems like there's some pseudo-random delay to me, but what do i know...

quoted 3 lines Also, I purchased my Denon used for $700, about

>Also, I purchased my Denon used for $700, about >the same price as 2 1200's (without a mixer). DN2000Fs are going for >about $950 new from mail order places.

yeah but i *hate* the 2000. talk about a crappy interface. if i ever decided to go CD (and believe me, i have thought about it more than once) i wouldn't settle for anything less than the 2700F which is VERY pricy at the moment. i consider those jog/shuttle dials to be a NECESSITY. not to mention all the other convenience features.

quoted 5 lines Another reason I buy CDs, which I forgot to mention before, is that I

>Another reason I buy CDs, which I forgot to mention before, is that I >can purchase a lot of good compilations for around $22 (import) a >piece that might have 4 or 5 good songs on them. A lot of stuff you >find on compilations is garbage, I agree, but those 4 or 5 songs >would have cost me $40 or $50 if I purchased them as vinyl singles.

or $18 if you bought the compilation on vinyl.

quoted 2 lines but you can't really play all the newest,

>but you can't really play all the newest, >best stuff at this point if you limit yourself to CDs only.

like i said, there's more to it than convenience and sound quality - the market drives DJs (which in turn drive the market just to make it really confusing). and the way things are set up now, if you want to be on top of things, you need vinyl. another point i forgot to mention in my first letter is that turnaround time on vinyl pressing is still MUCH quicker than CD pressing. you try getting a CD made around christmastime when all the plants are busy making 80 billion copies of "Rod Stewart's Greatest Hits".

quoted 2 lines You can get CD burners now for $3995 retail (not sure what the

>You can get CD burners now for $3995 retail (not sure what the >street price is) and the blanks are $10.

where do you get blanks for $10! i've never seen them for less than $22. admittedly, i'm not up on all the latest pricing for blanks, considering i don't have a burner yet. and anyway, a $4000 CD burner + a $1000 CD player is still way more expensive than $700 for two 1200s. Jon Drukman jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence.

quoted 1 line

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

be a DJ. However, IMHO, this is not a bad thing, because there will be new ways for DJ's to express their art. They can concentrate on musical selection more, can pay attention to the crowd 'vibe' more, and will probably be able to do real innovative stuff with new techie equipment. None of this would require physical prowess though, as DJing does now. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< I agree with this completely. Right now, beat matching is a very mechanical (humor me, if you will) skill. There's a lot more to it than just matching beats, but this is what must occupy most of your time while you're mixing. If I don't have to concentrate on keeping 2 discs or records playing exactly in sync for 3 or 4 minutes in a row, I can concentrate on other things that make a world of difference. Things like measures, key, chord progressions, etc. that make DJing more of a musician's skill than a beat matcher's skill. I can see the day when you'll be able to have 6 different discs spinning at the same time, and an intelligent programmable mixer that lets you grab different parts from each of the 6 sources. Then it will be true composition, and the DJs that don't have musical knowledge to keep up will be left behind. A lot of DJs I know started DJing before they had any knowledge of what makes up the music they play (measures, chord progressions, etc.), and they later had to learn how to count measures to figure out how to build the energy from one song to the next. I came from a musical background before I ever was a DJ and this has helped me immensely. If you ever have the chance to take a music theory class, I strongly suggest you do so; it will help you too. Luke

quoted 4 lines I agree with this completely. Right now, beat matching is a very

>I agree with this completely. Right now, beat matching is a very >mechanical (humor me, if you will) skill. There's a lot more to it >than just matching beats, but this is what must occupy most of your >time while you're mixing.

*derisive snort* not if you're a GOOD dj... /j/

quoted 6 lines This is _exactly_ what I'm talking about. Right now, you _have_ to be a

>This is _exactly_ what I'm talking about. Right now, you _have_ to be a >technically good dj before you can start improving on such things as >composition, logic of progression, tonality, etc. This makes dj'ing >something limited to those who have the time and effort to first learn the >technical art of being a dj. New technological advancements could >democratize the industry and 'kill it' in a way.

i think i've basically lost track of where this discussion is going. so permit me to ramble off into the twilight zone for a while... you're basically talking about destroying the barrier between musician and DJ. there won't be any need for records in this scenario - be they on CD *or* vinyl. all you will need are raw "groove elements." imagine an integrated unit: punch up a beat, punch in some trancey acid stuff on top, or punch in some housey stuff, or whatever. beatmatching as a skill will vanish because it will all be automatic and computer-controlled. type in "127 BPM, key of E flat" and the DSP in the system automatically processes all the "groove elements" to fit into that tempo and key. and why not... that's basically how a lot of people write their songs these days anyway. integrate a 909 & 303 emulator into the unit and nobody will ever need to buy another record again. house musicians won't release records, they'll release disks with more elements for the system on them. this is already extremely common in the techno realm - check out the ads for sample CDs in any electronic musician magazine some time. i don't know what i'd call this sort of activity - it's a cross between DJing, remixing and laying tracks all at the same time. we need a new word for it. is this a bad thing? nope. it will undoubtedly be prone to the same problems as every other public musical activity. and it will undoubtedly attract a lot of people who want to become overnight sensations rather than put the serious work into it.

quoted 6 lines The derisive snort is also exactly what I'm talking about. DJ's

> The derisive snort is also exactly what I'm talking about. DJ's >realize that being a good, recognized DJ means something. It means you've >proven yourself in a way most others can't. In my version of the future, >being a good, recognized DJ won't mean that you had negotiated any rite of >passage but simply that you have what it takes up top - an emphasis I would >like to see more of.

well, personally, i like the rite of passage aspect. permit me to get snotty for a moment, but there are far too many people out there who think that a a couple of 1200s and a crate full of the latest on Rising High somehow automatically makes them a good DJ. and i suspect the same will be true in my future envisioned above. i don't *want* everyone to be equal. equality breeds mediocrity - read kurt vonnegut's short story "harrison bergeron" for a depiction of this idea taken to insane extremes. the tool can make certain mechanical aspects simpler - you wouldn't want to carve a sculpture with a sharpened rock when you could have a chisel - but some flavor of training is important. to me, anyway. i do value the DIY 'punk' feel of techno but you can't tell me that it doesn't lead to a slew of crap records either. this "anyone with a 909 & 303" can make a record stuff is ridiculous. just like "anyone with a few turntables can be a DJ"... it just ain't so. Jon Drukman jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence.

Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com> writes:

quoted 12 lines you're basically talking about destroying the barrier between musician

> you're basically talking about destroying the barrier between musician > and DJ. there won't be any need for records in this scenario - be > they on CD *or* vinyl. all you will need are raw "groove elements." > imagine an integrated unit: punch up a beat, punch in some trancey > acid stuff on top, or punch in some housey stuff, or whatever. > beatmatching as a skill will vanish because it will all be automatic > and computer-controlled. type in "127 BPM, key of E flat" and the DSP > in the system automatically processes all the "groove elements" to fit > into that tempo and key. and why not... that's basically how a lot of > people write their songs these days anyway. integrate a 909 & 303 > emulator into the unit and nobody will ever need to buy another record > again.

quoted 3 lines this "anyone with a 909 & 303" can make a record stuff is ridiculous.

> this "anyone with a 909 & 303" can make a record stuff is ridiculous. > just like "anyone with a few turntables can be a DJ"... it just ain't > so.

as long as we're stepping into the twilight zone i can add a few points.. first i think jon's scenario is highly plausible with the emerging technology and the current blurring of the lines between dj, musical artist, the act of live mixing and the act of remixing.. but i would also add that the above scenario would probably actually *help* eliminate the bottom "problem", that anyone who has the equipment thinks they are "where it's at".. a more open ended system that jon speaks of would actually increase the ability to be more original and different, making it more important to be so.. if this is where the whole vinyl/digital discussion is taking us then i can't see where it can be construed as anything other than a "good thing" because anything that makes it possible for the dj/music creator to be more original in their art is definately a forward evolution.. i have wondered myself why samplers or the dj70 specifically don't see more use.. i'm not sure if it is a money consideration or if most djs just don't have the time to be *that* original.. most djs i know don't even make use of the samplers included *on* the mixer, much less a stand alone one.. i think maybe most djs just don't have the time in between mixes to think about using samples and/or effects but i think with jon's "system" it would make it rather more possible to do so..

Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com> writes:

quoted 12 lines you're basically talking about destroying the barrier between musician

> you're basically talking about destroying the barrier between musician > and DJ. there won't be any need for records in this scenario - be > they on CD *or* vinyl. all you will need are raw "groove elements." > imagine an integrated unit: punch up a beat, punch in some trancey > acid stuff on top, or punch in some housey stuff, or whatever. > beatmatching as a skill will vanish because it will all be automatic > and computer-controlled. type in "127 BPM, key of E flat" and the DSP > in the system automatically processes all the "groove elements" to fit > into that tempo and key. and why not... that's basically how a lot of > people write their songs these days anyway. integrate a 909 & 303 > emulator into the unit and nobody will ever need to buy another record > again.

don't forget a randomize button on this new Yamaha PSR-303! (g)

quoted 4 lines house musicians won't release records, they'll release disks with more

> house musicians won't release records, they'll release disks with more > elements for the system on them. this is already extremely common in > the techno realm - check out the ads for sample CDs in any electronic > musician magazine some time.

of course, there are still plenty who rarely use an un-customized (for lack of a better word) sample in their pieces, and quite a few who make their sounds from scratch, for their own use, not others. and of course, someone inevitably comes along and samples that sound from their recording :)

quoted 3 lines i don't know what i'd call this sort of activity - it's a cross

> i don't know what i'd call this sort of activity - it's a cross > between DJing, remixing and laying tracks all at the same time. we > need a new word for it.

maybe 'composing techno'? like you said, this _is_ basically what many artists are doing now. the 303 is darn close to a 'one finger, whole band' synth in some respects.

quoted 4 lines is this a bad thing? nope. it will undoubtedly be prone to the same

> is this a bad thing? nope. it will undoubtedly be prone to the same > problems as every other public musical activity. and it will > undoubtedly attract a lot of people who want to become overnight > sensations rather than put the serious work into it.

Right on. The guitar's guilty of the same things.

quoted 9 lines the tool can make certain mechanical aspects simpler - you wouldn't

> the tool can make certain mechanical aspects simpler - you wouldn't > want to carve a sculpture with a sharpened rock when you could have a > chisel - but some flavor of training is important. to me, anyway. > i do value the DIY 'punk' feel of techno but you can't tell me that it > doesn't lead to a slew of crap records either. > > this "anyone with a 909 & 303" can make a record stuff is ridiculous. > just like "anyone with a few turntables can be a DJ"... it just ain't > so.

well, anyone with a 909 and a 303 _can_ make a record. what requires talent is making a _good_ record, with music that many enjoy, regardless of equipment. - Dan |=|=|=|=\=|=\=|=\=|=\=|=\=|=/=|=/=|=/=|=/=|=|=|=|-------------------------- The 8-BIt Collective - Transmission 23 - edrone dan nicholson, Clonor the Other - Finnish Techno Zyndicate 8bit@vlad.bowker.com -=>ICBM volume one available soon!<=- moddan@vlad.bowker.com "This message has been sent out - did you originate it?"

quoted 11 lines Also, I purchased my Denon used for $700, about

> > >Also, I purchased my Denon used for $700, about > >the same price as 2 1200's (without a mixer). DN2000Fs are going for > >about $950 new from mail order places. > > yeah but i *hate* the 2000. talk about a crappy interface. if i ever > decided to go CD (and believe me, i have thought about it more than > once) i wouldn't settle for anything less than the 2700F which is VERY > pricy at the moment. i consider those jog/shuttle dials to be a > NECESSITY. not to mention all the other convenience features. >

Stanton has "got your message." Ad for the Stanton CD-11 in Streetsound and other 'zines looks GOOD! Dual deck, hands-on loading (flip top), enabling CD loading in a flash; stick-shift adjustable Search and Pitch Bend features (joystick: left-right is search, up-down is pitch bend, to get the beat on track if its off a little when beatmatching); Instant cue and instant start, along with blank pass program search (whatever that is); variable speed index, forward/reverse scan and dual sliding pitch controls; mountable in a turntable bay of a DJ console; best of all, it's comparable in price to two (2) fully-equipped professional DJ turntables (now WHICH turntables they mean, is a mystery). Stanton Electronics, Inc. 101 Sunnyside Blvd. Plainview, NY 11803 516-349-0235 fax 349-0230 looks very nice, and with the idea of burning CDs with stuff from vinyl sounds very tempting to get into not only 12" DJing, but CD DJing too! Both!

quoted 8 lines You can get CD burners now for $3995 retail (not sure what the

> > >You can get CD burners now for $3995 retail (not sure what the > >street price is) and the blanks are $10. > > where do you get blanks for $10! i've never seen them for less than > $22. admittedly, i'm not up on all the latest pricing for blanks, > considering i don't have a burner yet. >

Any info from Francois (Dion?) and elsewhere on this, please forward!

quoted 3 lines and anyway, a $4000 CD burner + a $1000 CD player is still way more

> and anyway, a $4000 CD burner + a $1000 CD player is still way more > expensive than $700 for two 1200s. >

Well, I wish that the market would change more to include the 'underground' stuff on CDs, without changing the current vinyl situation. It is a bit of convenience to have CDs with tons of good tracks -- compact. And I like the idea of a hi-tech DJ -- cyber-DJ! Hopefully, 10 years from now, CD & vinyl DJ'ing will coexist in harmony...without being pricey. -djkc

quoted 6 lines The derisive snort is also exactly what I'm talking about. DJ's

> The derisive snort is also exactly what I'm talking about. DJ's > realize that being a good, recognized DJ means something. It means you've > proven yourself in a way most others can't. In my version of the future, > being a good, recognized DJ won't mean that you had negotiated any rite of > passage but simply that you have what it takes up top - an emphasis I would > like to see more of.

It'll do the same to DJ'ing as sequencers did to music making.... Sequencers mean that pretty much everyone has the technical skills to make music, without having to endure the "right of passage" of learning to play an instrument. It means that the genuinely creative people out there are producing innovative music that couldn't have been made without the new technology. It also means that any kid can make a techno choon in their bedroom, without requiring any genuine talent, so there's a lot more crap out there too. Something which removes the techincal skills from DJ'ing will have the same effect: all the good DJ's will use the technology to do creative things that would never have been possible before, and maybe there'll be a *few* really good new DJ's who'd have been detered by the difficulty of using vinyl. But there'll be lots of new button-pushing DJ's who have no creative skill at all.... The advantage of the right of passage is that it weeds out those who aren't commited to what they're doing.... It means that if you go and listen to a DJ who's bothered to learn to beatmatch well, they probably really *care* about the set they're playing.... In your brave new world, that won't be true.... The best will be better, but the norm will be mediocre.... Cosmic

quoted 3 lines i think maybe most djs just don't have the time in between mixes to think

> i think maybe most djs just don't have the time in between mixes to think > about using samples and/or effects but i think with jon's "system" it > would make it rather more possible to do so..

That's actually my system, not Jon's. A friend of mine and I came up with this idea in 1988. At th time, we estimated the cost of such a beast and came up with a figure that was in the tens of thousands of dollars, given the price of RAM, DSP chips and hard drives at the time. The price would be a bit lower nowadays. Anyway, the one thing that we intentionally omitted from our design was the ability to take a musical phrase and figure out where the beginning and end of the phrase is. This is *really* difficult from a software point of view. So the DJ would have to load musical chunks onto the hard drive and manually locate where the phrase's start-point and end-point are. This could be done before the actual performance, or the more adventurous DJ could do this on the fly during a performance.