IDM Mailing Archive

---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: max0666 <max0666@cox.net> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:07:42 -0500

quoted 16 lines you mean puppy, 242, and the like? whose flag are you saying they stole?

>> you mean puppy, 242, and the like? whose flag are you saying they stole? >> TG? SPK? kraftwerk? >> i'd argue those 80's artists did not simply steal the work of the 70's >> pioneers, but >> turned it into something else, a morphing if you will. a bit more original >> than >> later cases of photocopying, although it is wrong to call it by the same name >> "industrial" like everybody does, but that's just another case of misnomers >> becoming popular. >> d. > >Argument validated...early on there was some interesting energy there, but >it morphed into a pierced up, grungy nightmare, that in essence >"photocopied" itself. it became a biblical epic where genesis begat, begat >begat....way too many children. and i don't mean P'Orridge, but you are what >you eat. a very limited diet......

yes, exactly. this is the case with a lot of genres that stick around too long and become complacent, as well as becoming a cottage industry in itself. more "product" must be made to sell, so it self-perpetuates, long after being artistically valid. the boundaries are policed intently, and any attempt to move outside the usual cliches are rewarded with deaf ears. the alternative is, of course, for more people to churn out more of the same, with perhaps very subtle refinements of style, or simply keeping up with updating technology. unfortunately, as the original complaint about proem illustrates (though i may still enjoy proem), this may be getting to be as much a problem in IDM as in EBM or goth or punk. once everyone in the world has heard of a genre, the next generation has their chance to react to it, and unfortunately, direct imitation is still the most prevalent form of flattery. but there will always be those out there making the attempt to "take it somewhere else" instead of just copying what they've heard. or at least coloring outside the lines. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On May 11, 2004, at 3:31 PM, chthonic wrote:

quoted 7 lines yes, exactly. this is the case with a lot of genres that stick around

> yes, exactly. this is the case with a lot of genres that stick around > too long and > become complacent, as well as becoming a cottage industry in itself. > more > "product" must be made to sell, so it self-perpetuates, long after > being artistically > valid.

Please to be defining "artistically valid". Also, rest of list, please to commence lynching Adam Piontek :D -Adam Piontek --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 9 lines On May 11, 2004, at 3:31 PM, chthonic wrote:

>On May 11, 2004, at 3:31 PM, chthonic wrote: >>yes, exactly. this is the case with a lot of genres that stick >>around too long and >>become complacent, as well as becoming a cottage industry in itself. more >>"product" must be made to sell, so it self-perpetuates, long after >>being artistically >>valid. > >Please to be defining "artistically valid".

assuming this was a serious question and not a troll... i believe art should attempt in some way to push the envelope of whatever arena it exists in. at the same time, it needs to be understandable on some level by persons other than the creator. i also believe art should exist because it has to, because the creator can't *not* do it. a lot of music fails at these things. i'm not specifically talking about IDM (frankly, i was more bitching about other genres); as i said, this happens across the board. the most obvious failure is the envelope-pushing. once genres have become well-defined, many musicians adhere strictly to what has become a blueprint, proudly proclaiming their allegiance to one narrow form of music. there is something to be said for focus, but as another person mentioned here, in this case it feeds on itself and the results are clearly malnourished. one can certainly create music firmly within a genre but still have influences from outside. however, the music that fails to push the envelope is also usually the music that fails to look outside itself, and ultimately fails to be interesting. the most academic art sometimes excels at this envelope-pushing, but fails at the second part, which engages an audience in some way. while personally i don't feel art should necessarily be made *for* other people, a work not engaging an audience in some way becomes a variation on the tree/forest question: if someone makes a work but no one sees or understands it, is it still art? this may be the least important of the three points i brought up, but i wanted to add it lest anyone think i was arguing for pure academia or envelope-pushing for its own sake. there needs to be a balance. finally, the motivations behind creating art are often different than those of commerce. once a genre of music becomes a commodity, the motivation becomes corrupted. music is written to fill space and time, to make money, to generate an excuse to tour, to perpetuate a fashion to sell clothes, to have something to capture images of and market books and DVDs. so a lot of people end up not creating out of some internal need, but because they want to keep it all going. i'm not saying everyone who sells music or ancillary items is corrupted. but when a music becomes a lifestyle becomes an industry, some people arise that are simply trading off of the assumption, even the hope, that this is all now a permanent fixture in the world; unchanging, self-perpetuating, revenue-generating. and music merely becomes the excuse to make more stuff to make the money, live the life, and stop the growth process that created the whole thing in the first place. there are probably exceptions to each of these, but i'd say that anything that fails at all 3 things is pretty worthless as a work of art. and however long or cranky the above rant may appear, it's to be taken with a grain of salt. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org