IDM Mailing Archive

concurrent with a lot of this as well, with roots in blues, most early jazz, bop styles up to experimental and free styles, have a lot of the earliest uses with pushing the use of key oriented instrumentation up to the development of the synthesizer, i mean after all, jazz was one of the first, club/dance styles that was compartmentalized into smaller groups with specific intentions of club/dancing/intoxication in mind, as well as playing with prototypes to filtering and effects by outside/directional/physical manipulations. i do draw a lot of my research/development from these early composer/innovators as well in composition, technique, meter etc...two cents. later, Nth G. Sachio Crowe / Nth Department of Physics University of Washington exponential media network po box 19553 seattle, wa 98109 206.283.2179 - office 206.669.1952 - cell nth808@hotmail.com -email http://www.soundclick.com/nth -bio/info/news/mp3 exponentialmedia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - newsgroup

quoted 56 lines From: svin <svinrave@yahoo.com>

>From: svin <svinrave@yahoo.com> >To: seeklektek <eclectics@comcast.net>, idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: [idm] science in genres >Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:41:59 -0800 (PST) > >when you try to trace the roots of all of it >it all goes as far as first blues singers of the >1920s, they were the founders of all of it > >but later in the 50s music splits into > >1.james brown, father of funk and grand father of >all of techno and dubbed including electronica >and hiphop, all of EBM > >2.rockenrolen with less groove, elvis kind > >interesting thing is that elvis is dead >as the trend he generated exhausted itself fully > >but James Brown still alive, kicking and >screaming, getting in and out of jail all the >time, big old motherfucker > >and HIS trend is as young as never, producing >music to dance to, from funk, hiphop to cuting >edge electronica > >and i forsee it to grow even further > >on the other hand rock seems to be dead forever >in terms of music innovation and fresh sound, > >with all latest achievements paying tribute and >using dubbing, 4by4 rythmic structures and othe >techno methods > >The reasons people started to hate rockenroll are >obviouis. > >It became more commersionalised then any other >genre, repeating itself in 10 year cycles > >from >rocknroll to hard rock to punk to anything metal >again and again > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. >http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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Not to play Captain Poopypants here, but a lot of this lineage-tracing seems to be a exercise in constructing linear narratives from a scattered, contradictory and often unrelated scattering of events. Ultimately, we need some narratives to help organize our understandings of origins and development, but IDM's histories seem to resist that...and I think that's a good thing, overall. If anything unifies EDM, IDM and Electroaccoustic/Tape music's origins, it's the prevelance of hermetic creativities. So many artists in electronic music (especially before the last 1/4 of the XX-century) worked in a state of conceptual isolation, taking their inspiration from a broad array of sources rather than a father-teacher/student-son scenario. So, while I recognize the importance of creating creation stories for IDM and EDM (this is especially true in a classroom setting), we should leave some room for Other stories, Other voices. cheers, Luis --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

of course, but still, it is imaginable that techno(ebm, etc) could have emerge without a lot of things but no way without funk. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

----- Original Message ----- From: <l.garcia@utoronto.ca>

quoted 1 line Not to play Captain Poopypants here,

> Not to play Captain Poopypants here,

seek np: Captain Poopypants Greatest Zits --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

It seems there are multiple ways to trace the lineage of IDM. Most people trace it's roots to funk but a primary element of nearly all funk rhythms is the triplet in a 4/4 groove which can often imply a 3 on 2 - this feature is nearly non-existent in IDM. "4 on the floor" has more of a relation to West African & reggae grooves than R&B. The reliance on repetitive rhythms using sequencers in the electronic world seems to be linked with the batterias of Brazil. This is just touching on some of the rhythmic strains that led to what is modern electronic music. I'm sure someone could follow the influence of technology, ignoring both chordal & rhythmic developments and make a good argument that it's the machine that has revolutionized music, not the player. All are influences, but I don't think we have an understanding of music if we choose to close off possible paths, including those that might use traditional instrumentation (bass, drums, guitar.) The flaw seems to be looking to the past influences in music for a conclusion as to what music is today, rather than opening up the possibilities of what it could become. Every generation believes it is at the apex of musical development. I suppose it's possible that we could be the first generation that is right, but I don't think it likely. -----Original Message----- From: l.garcia@utoronto.ca [mailto:l.garcia@utoronto.ca] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 1:15 PM To: unlisted-recipients Cc: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: [idm] science in genres...hmmm Not to play Captain Poopypants here, but a lot of this lineage-tracing seems to be a exercise in constructing linear narratives from a scattered, contradictory and often unrelated scattering of events. Ultimately, we need some narratives to help organize our understandings of origins and development, but IDM's histories seem to resist that...and I think that's a good thing, overall. If anything unifies EDM, IDM and Electroaccoustic/Tape music's origins, it's the prevelance of hermetic creativities. So many artists in electronic music (especially before the last 1/4 of the XX-century) worked in a state of conceptual isolation, taking their inspiration from a broad array of sources rather than a father-teacher/student-son scenario. So, while I recognize the importance of creating creation stories for IDM and EDM (this is especially true in a classroom setting), we should leave some room for Other stories, Other voices. cheers, Luis --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

what about breakbeat so popular in idm rythms? is it 4by 4? funk breaks a little thats true but it seems that blues and funk gave it to ska and reggea then backwards jamaican music is my favorite ..flavour in all of music but i have to admit they were borowing a lot from funk, but ryddims the created were original and had breaks in em repetitive rhythms using sequencers i think got into electronica through the creation of those machines that kraftwerk and other pioneers started to use like that i was arguing the idea that a certain sound and perception(dancing to monotonic repetetive rythms) that characterize edm specifically came from funk also edm 100% sure absorbed the rest of influences and methods, no doubt but without funk, that lead to disko that lead to chicago and detroit techno.. i doubt that we'd have same genres today. And i am talking here about dancing music not songs, not experimental sounds and other terific things. appeal of it that makes me to dance to it is what i like in it. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

it seems that it is getting more towards reuse of music of tomorow not just in sampling but for listening we, the listeners,have never been in a situation when so much, almost all music produced in the past is available for free to listen to it in recorded formats it may become so that one day the need for new music may shrink because of the technologies and methods to search and find what your soul deserves in the older music so on one hand technology gives anyone with imagination simple tools to create masterpieces but on the other the total body of recorded works is getting infinite well thats a dilema so far as a listener i am enjoying the situation __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: <Mark.Nelson@zlbusa.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:47:48 -0800

quoted 1 line All are influences, but I don't think we have an understanding of

>All are influences, but I don't think we have an understanding of

music

quoted 1 line if we choose to close off possible paths, including those that

>if we choose to close off possible paths, including those that

might use

quoted 1 line traditional instrumentation (bass, drums, guitar.)

>traditional instrumentation (bass, drums, guitar.)

thank you so much for saying that. i may hate the saxophone in general as an instrument (especially tenor sax), but that doesn't mean there aren't songs that use it that i like (e.g.: peter gabriel's "start", which is all synths except for a tenor sax). just because a sound or instrument is present shouldn't necessarily exclude enjoyment of the piece. in fact, i have respect for people who can take annoying sounds and songforms and make them into something great. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

this is crazy... ;0) and i had this misconception that IDMers were all lil more open minded than most music listeners. and what's even crazier is i haven't heard one thing about kraftwerk... in my opinion they were way more influential to electronic music... seeing as they are the original electronic act. to be perfectly honest rock, rap, techno, its all the same to me. a series of sounds placed in patterns. you move one kick over and you have a whole new genre ;0) i personally feel the electronic scene is dead. oversaturated and becoming just as commercial as rock. shit man does a vacuum cleaner really need a break beat ;0) or aphex with his special olympics commercial, amon tobin and car commercials etc... you have every jack as w/ a turn table and computer or even just a computer putting out tues, but if you handed them a real instrument or even a piece of outboard gear they wouldn't even know where to start. they are only as cool as their plug ins. electronica has become too easy. i've actually been doing the opposite of you cats it seems. been putting away the aphex, autechre etc and picking up music only from the 70's and below, really amazing shit that sounds just as technical and even more impressive to me because it was actually played. just because you cram as many weird sounds into song as possible doesn't necessarily make it more technical. _________________________________________________________________ Find a broadband plan that fits. Great local deals on high-speed Internet access. https://broadband.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Vaclav Vanek" <vaclav_vanek@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:09:21 -0800

quoted 1 line electronica has become too easy.

>electronica has become too easy.

i agree with this, inasmuch as a lot of styles of music have become too easy. so much has been thought of for people already, too many people can make a few simple choices and churn out something in any given genre. whatever you want to do, you have only to look at what's been done, copy the blueprints, and spit out a new version of the old. but today's software makes this much easier in electronic music. it seems pop is not the only music that will eat itself.

quoted 1 line i personally feel the electronic scene is dead

>i personally feel the electronic scene is dead

and here we are back to dualism...rock is dead vs. electronic is dead. or perhaps it's more complex than that. it highlights once again the overdependency on genres, which you touched upon ("move a kick drum and you have a new genre" indeed! bravo for that). this leads to such rash generalizations, when really we need to look not so much at trends and titles but individual artists, or even pieces. perhaps i'm so willing to jump into the fray in regards to this two-party system of rock vs. electronic because my own band is a hybrid, and many artists i like are as well. in fact, many seem to have forgotten rock itself was originally a hybrid of country/western and rhythm-and-blues, two genres that, especially because of their social (read: racial) divisions, couldn't have seemed more unalike to people at the time. similarly, what we call "IDM" is also a hybrid of electronic music styles, or at least a collection of genres (since it is not even a true genre as we were reminded here recently). perhaps one day someone will come up with a reasonable and popular genre name for the rock/electro hybrid. although, given the eventual "death" of every genre that has a name, perhaps we should all be glad no one has yet. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Does music have to be difficult? Is easy music inauthentic? Or is it just music of "the masses"? Adorno, call your office... On Thu, 25 Mar 2004, chthonic wrote:

quoted 13 lines ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > From: "Vaclav Vanek" <vaclav_vanek@hotmail.com> > > >electronica has become too easy. > > i agree with this, inasmuch as a lot of styles of music have > become too easy. so much has been thought of for people > already, too many people can make a few simple choices and > churn out something in any given genre. whatever you want to do, > you have only to look at what's been done, copy the blueprints, and > spit out a new version of the old. but today's software makes this > much easier in electronic music. it seems pop is not the only > music that will eat itself.

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chthonic said:

quoted 15 lines ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > From: "Vaclav Vanek" <vaclav_vanek@hotmail.com> > Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:09:21 -0800 > > >>electronica has become too easy. > > i agree with this, inasmuch as a lot of styles of music have > become too easy. so much has been thought of for people > already, too many people can make a few simple choices and > churn out something in any given genre. whatever you want to do, you > have only to look at what's been done, copy the blueprints, and spit > out a new version of the old. but today's software makes this much > easier in electronic music. it seems pop is not the only > music that will eat itself.

I personally think it's great that so many people can express themselves with music. i'd rather let everyone do it and sift through it all to find the gems, instead of have a mere trickling from peopel with gobs of money (or really, really good timing) that may or may not be good/innovative. when the music market is wide open is when the best music will come out. I'm sure of my own belief that IDM came into being because some people jumped on cheap old hardware and made it do new things, not because they were holed up in a studio with expensive gear that's beyond most people's means. The entire genre, and most GOOD music, is born from people who simply want to make the music. Putting that technology in more hands can only do good. so what if some of it is sucky? It's better than no music at all, and there's a good chance that it WILL be very good. derek -- eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

from an unknown user (really! no reply-to at all): ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Does music have to be difficult???Is easy music inauthentic? Or is it just music of "the masses"???Adorno, call your office... haha, good reference there (i've just been reading about adorno in relation to the masses in "the middle mind: why americans don't think for themselves"). thing is, i'm not sure whether you mean "difficult" for the creator or the listener. i was talking about the former, and you and adorno seem to be talking about the latter. On Thu, 25 Mar 2004, chthonic wrote:

quoted 9 lines ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > From: "Vaclav Vanek" <vaclav_vanek@hotmail.com> > > >electronica has become too easy. > > i agree with this, inasmuch as a lot of styles of music have > become too easy.??so much has been thought of for people > already, too many people can make a few simple choices and > churn out something in any given genre.??whatever you want to

do,

quoted 1 line you have only to look at what's been done, copy the blueprints,

> you have only to look at what's been done, copy the blueprints,

and

quoted 3 lines spit out a new version of the old.??but today's software makes this

> spit out a new version of the old.??but today's software makes this > much easier in electronic music.??it seems pop is not the only > music that will eat itself.

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---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Eggy Toast" <eggy@eggtastic.com> Reply-To: eggy@eggtastic.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:11:03 -0500 (EST)

quoted 1 line I personally think it's great that so many people can express

>I personally think it's great that so many people can express

themselves

quoted 1 line with music.

>with music.

in theory i think that's great too. and the "punk"/"anti-musician" in me wants to hear other such musical results. but in practice, sometimes it's not so good. however, i suppose it's the most freedom-embracing method. it could be worse.

quoted 2 lines i'd rather let everyone do it and sift through it all to find

>i'd rather let everyone do it and sift through it all to find >the gems, instead of have a mere trickling from peopel with gobs

of money

quoted 1 line (or really, really good timing) that may or may not be

>(or really, really good timing) that may or may not be

good/innovative. personally, i wasn't talking about having gobs of money. i was arguing for innovation too. to paraphrase a popular saying, necessity is the mother of innovation. having 10 million plugins is not necessarily going to lead to that innovation. and back to the money issue for the moment, if people were paying for all these plugins they'd *have* to have gobs of money. a lot more than somebody who only has a plastic bucket and a pair of wooden spoons. but the one with less can sometimes make more, because the brain is doing more work than the instrument. as far as good timing, you're talking about the dissemination of the music, not the creation of the music itself. although of course i agree that dissemination is important.

quoted 1 line when the music market is wide open is when the best music will

>when the music market is wide open is when the best music will

come out. it depends on what you mean by "wide open". i agree in the sense of dissemination, such as times in popular culture when the barriers melt away and people realize it's all the same stuff on some level.

quoted 1 line I'm sure of my own belief that IDM came into being because

>I'm sure of my own belief that IDM came into being because

some people

quoted 1 line jumped on cheap old hardware and made it do new things, not

>jumped on cheap old hardware and made it do new things, not

because they

quoted 1 line were holed up in a studio with expensive gear that's beyond most

>were holed up in a studio with expensive gear that's beyond most

people's

quoted 1 line means.

>means.

yes, this is exactly what i was talking about above. thank you.

quoted 1 line The entire genre, and most GOOD music, is born from people

>The entire genre, and most GOOD music, is born from people

who simply want

quoted 1 line to make the music. Putting that technology in more hands can

>to make the music. Putting that technology in more hands can

only do

quoted 1 line good. so what if some of it is sucky? It's better than no music at

>good. so what if some of it is sucky? It's better than no music at

all,

quoted 1 line and there's a good chance that it WILL be very good.

>and there's a good chance that it WILL be very good.

that's true. sometimes i just get exhausted having to fight to be heard as an artist while simultaneously having to sift through a million things as a listener. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org