IDM Mailing Archive

Has anyone heard Geire Jensen's (sp?) BLEEP project, and how does it compare to his Biosphere work? Mohsen

Moshen wrote:

quoted 3 lines Has anyone heard Geire Jensen's (sp?) BLEEP project, and how does

> > Has anyone heard Geire Jensen's (sp?) BLEEP project, and how does > it compare to his Biosphere work?

And I answer: I bought it years ago from some discount bin. Very good, actually. It was actually one of the first records I heard from the "techno" genre, I was bit late u know. I don't have it anymore since I sold all my records years ago since my turntable broke down and I was also broke :-) Well, I recall the album was called something like "North Pole by Submarine". It was kind of bleepy acid, if you like. I haven't really listened to Biosphere but I guess it is quite different. Greetings, J.________________________________________________________________________ *** *** Jouni Alkio / Helsinki / Finland *** *** AURAL EXPANSION *** *** -synthetic music for the average adventurous down-to-earth person

Well, well, well... it seems Bleep.com has gone live today... Hans -- Hans Veneman http://technotourist.org http://vlokfeest.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Hans Veneman,

quoted 1 line Well, well, well... it seems Bleep.com has gone live today...

> Well, well, well... it seems Bleep.com has gone live today...

Excellent site. This is how music should be sold over the net. - No DRM crap. - Reasonably good quality (and they mention the possibilty of selling FLAC instead of mp3). - You can preview whole tracks, not just preselected five seconds. There is no point in crippling your service to paying customers like other online services do. Kudos to Warp. regards, urb --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

and songs are $1.35. oof. ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Veneman <hans@technotourist.org> Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 8:54 am Subject: [idm] Bleep

quoted 15 lines Well, well, well... it seems Bleep.com has gone live today...

> Well, well, well... it seems Bleep.com has gone live today... > > Hans > > -- > Hans Veneman > http://technotourist.org > http://vlokfeest.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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quoted 1 line and songs are $1.35. oof.

>and songs are $1.35. oof.

for a thin-sounding, crappy mp3? fuk that. just let me know when new CDs are released. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

They do mention in the FAQ that they are thinking about supporting Ogg, AAC and lossless formats as well, but by the sounds of it you will have to pay for it again even if you have downloaded the MP3 previously. I had assumed that once you pay for a song they would keep a record of it and let you download it as many times you want in whatever format you want, but you have to pay for each download you do. Can anyone tell me if this how iTunes works as well? Glenn

quoted 13 lines and songs are $1.35. oof.

>> and songs are $1.35. oof. > > > for a thin-sounding, crappy mp3? fuk that. just let me know when new > CDs are released. > > > d. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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Glenn McClements said:

quoted 3 lines They do mention in the FAQ that they are thinking about supporting Ogg,

> They do mention in the FAQ that they are thinking about supporting Ogg, > AAC and lossless formats as well, but by the sounds of it you will have > to pay for it again even if you have downloaded the MP3 previously.

it's also encoded at 256+ VBR with quality set to high. That's hardly "thin sounding, crappy."

quoted 5 lines I had assumed that once you pay for a song they would keep a record of

> > I had assumed that once you pay for a song they would keep a record of > it and let you download it as many times you want in whatever format you > want, but you have to pay for each download you do. Can anyone tell me > if this how iTunes works as well?

You pay for each download because they don't want to incur bandwidth costs for multiple people downloading from the same account. It's just web-based, and you don't need to install and use some proprietary program, so if I were to buy 5 albums and could download them over and over again, I could just pass my username and password around until everyone downloaded it. Makes sense why they would say "hey, you can make as many copies as you want, so back up the stuff you download!" Not sure if iTunes has the same protection or not. -- eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 7 lines Glenn McClements said:

>Glenn McClements said: >> They do mention in the FAQ that they are thinking about supporting Ogg, >> AAC and lossless formats as well, but by the sounds of it you will have >> to pay for it again even if you have downloaded the MP3 previously. > >it's also encoded at 256+ VBR with quality set to high. That's hardly >"thin sounding, crappy."

sorry. this is IMO. i've heard songs on an ipod, encoded that high, with the same headphones as on my discman, and there is a difference. even the best mp3's are lacking a fullness, they sound canned. to me, mp3's are the digital equivalent of cassettes. i don't consider them a final stage worth paying money for. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Well don't forget that your iPod isn't exactly providing the best sound quality. SNR is only 90db. Screw Apple. Get a Creative player. The SNR is 98db. Oh yeah, and they cost half as much. Try both the mp3 and the CD on the same PC with the same headphones, then you'll at least know that you're hearing both through the same hardware. I'm not saying that there won't still be a difference. I'm just saying that your current method of comparison is flawed. Later, Alan Quoting chthonic streams <chthonic@chthonicstreams.com>:

quoted 9 lines sorry. this is IMO. i've heard songs on an ipod, encoded that high,

> sorry. this is IMO. i've heard songs on an ipod, encoded that high, > with the same headphones as on my discman, and there is a difference. > even the best mp3's are lacking a fullness, they sound canned. to > me, mp3's are the digital equivalent of cassettes. i don't consider > them a final stage worth paying money for. > > > d. >

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quoted 7 lines Well don't forget that your iPod isn't exactly providing the best sound

>Well don't forget that your iPod isn't exactly providing the best sound >quality. SNR is only 90db. Screw Apple. Get a Creative player. The SNR is >98db. Oh yeah, and they cost half as much. >Try both the mp3 and the CD on the same PC with the same headphones, then >you'll at least know that you're hearing both through the same hardware. I'm >not saying that there won't still be a difference. I'm just saying that your >current method of comparison is flawed.

not my ipod, a coworker's. i have no intention of buying such a player. i like CDs. i like the physicality of them. i like artwork. and although i listen to CDs on my G4 at work, there's a difference between itunes and a home stereo or discman. mp3's are a nice way to get music out there and get heard, but ultimately i want to both buy and release music on a more substantial format, both sonically and physically. i'd prefer the future to be DVD audio or (hopefully backwards-compatible) higher-bitrate CDs than reducing songs in quality and importance to names on a file list. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

[chthonic streams <chthonic@chthonicstreams.com>]

quoted 4 lines not my ipod, a coworker's. i have no intention of buying such a

> not my ipod, a coworker's. i have no intention of buying such a > player. i like CDs. i like the physicality of them. i like > artwork. and although i listen to CDs on my G4 at work, there's a > difference between itunes and a home stereo or discman.

It's funny, then, that this has now come full circle. This used to be the argument for vinyl versus CD-- more physical and visceral, bigger artwork, more personal, warmer sound, etc... -- :: atomly :: [ atomly@atomly.com : www.atomly.com ... [ atomiq records : po box 805319 chicago il 60680 : 312.804.5389 ... [ e-mail atomly-news-subscribe@atomly.com for atomly info and updates ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

atomly <atomly@atomly.com> mused:

quoted 9 lines [chthonic streams <chthonic@chthonicstreams.com>]

>[chthonic streams <chthonic@chthonicstreams.com>] >> not my ipod, a coworker's. i have no intention of buying such a >> player. i like CDs. i like the physicality of them. i like >> artwork. and although i listen to CDs on my G4 at work, there's a >> difference between itunes and a home stereo or discman. > >It's funny, then, that this has now come full circle. This used to be >the argument for vinyl versus CD-- more physical and visceral, bigger >artwork, more personal, warmer sound, etc...

i was thinking that myself as i replied. the main problems with vinyl are its bulkiness and the whole physical needle-wearing-down-grooves issue. true, it has created a whole host of exciting sounds used in music based on crackly records or hip-hop scratching. but as i know from talking to mastering engineers, it's hard to get as much dynamic and frequency range on vinyl. so i only buy vinyl if there's no other form of the release, and/or if it has some special quality (picture disc, lush packaging). i also have a turntable with a SPDIF out, so i can transfer my vinyl to computer, clean it up, and burn a CD. but that is only if i have no other choice. i would prefer to have the music in the format the artist intended for release, with all information (even if it's a blank-looking cover, that says something too). CDs are a sensible middle ground between earlier formats and mp3s on issues of portability and artwork/info, and still (IMO) superior in sound. also, remember that when the initial complaints about CDs were made, the recording and mastering technology was nowhere near what it is today. nor was the experience of recording and mastering engineers. many CDs were simply transfers from 2-inch tape, and ended up sounding harsh and noisy by comparison to the vinyl versions they were originally destined for. one could argue the same about mp3 encoders and players i suppose. the difference, and the difficulty, is that encoding rates and methods are at the mercy of the end user, or maybe the seller in the case of online pay-for-download sites. this can only be overcome if 1) an acceptable, AIFF-quality worldwide standard is established and adhered to, and 2) artists and engineers start mixing and mastering "for mp3". i would rather hear more work on higher-quality formats (and work towards making them affordable), or improvements on the ones we already have. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

They are using the recommended version of lame (3.90.3 i think).. NOT the latest one which isn't the best for qualitys sake.. lame --alt-preset standard is indeed VERY VERY high quality sounding.. its supposedly near transparent.. I personally use the same version of lame and --alt-preset extreme for my CD rips for my Creative player... its a bit higher bitrate but to be honest the difference is probably placebo.. Which brings me to the original criticism of mp3s below.. if you do surely hear problems with mp3s of this type.. dont even go there with itunes high quality as they use fhg and really there is better to be had at higher bitrates with lame.. but basically you need to conduct a proper listening test.. one that is double blind.. your mind will persuade you that its different if you have any idea of what it is... blinded its only down to the audio and its at this point that most people fail.. www.hydrogenaudio.org is the standard bearing site for all things to do with audio encoding.. go and read up on there and try out some software to ABX.. (actually foobar will do this automatically for you by just sellecting two tracks in a playlist and right clicking ABX tracks) ... as soon as you can pick between an APS and CD with 99% certainty as returned by the software on your guesses then you must i) check to see if the song you are listening to is a known difficult song.. if it isn't report it to the codec developers so they can improve the codec to cope better, or even fix the problem ii) get actively involved in testing various codecs as its clear you have very good ears As for peoples hopes for other formats.. aside from a placebo inspired jump to alt-preset extreme or insane there really isn't any higher place to go.. with lossy formats you can't transcode to other formats gracefully (in that respect it really is like a tape recording) and mp3s will play on EVERY player around.. not true of any other format... but even OGG and AAC just simply aren't tested as much as lame and as such you aren't getting the same guarantees that its not going to fall over on some tracks.. Its really great that they are using such high quality encodes... if they went for FLAC that would be even better but would require a 10x increase on bandwidth infrastructure... That you pay for the one off download is harsh but its hard to see them not getting swamped by repeated downloads.. i think a compromise where you have to fill in a form to get an unlock code for an album/track you have lost.. these can then be controlled to only allow you to get the same song every few months... special allowances could be made after direct contact with the customer describing their "crash"... this would stop people trading accounts and spreading files even more.. Great to see.. for now personally i'll keep buying CDs aside from perhaps the ultra rare EPs that are vinyl only before now.. thats kind of need and deserves FLAC as there is no other high quality choice.. Cheers Warp Jim

quoted 37 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Alan R. Lucas [mailto:arlucas@telerama.com] > Sent: 14 January 2004 16:21 > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] Bleep - mp3s > > > Well don't forget that your iPod isn't exactly providing the best sound > quality. SNR is only 90db. Screw Apple. Get a Creative player. The SNR is > 98db. Oh yeah, and they cost half as much. > > Try both the mp3 and the CD on the same PC with the same headphones, then > you'll at least know that you're hearing both through the same > hardware. I'm > not saying that there won't still be a difference. I'm just > saying that your > current method of comparison is flawed. > > Later, > Alan > > Quoting chthonic streams <chthonic@chthonicstreams.com>: > > > sorry. this is IMO. i've heard songs on an ipod, encoded that high, > > with the same headphones as on my discman, and there is a difference. > > even the best mp3's are lacking a fullness, they sound canned. to > > me, mp3's are the digital equivalent of cassettes. i don't consider > > them a final stage worth paying money for. > > > > > > d. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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I thought that too, but £2.99 for a 12"/EP £6.99 for an album Is much better LAME 3.90.3 --alt-resent standard encoded VBR files [the Jimmy Edgar one I'm listening to at the moment is 237 kbps] The T&Cs are interesting: You are allowed to copy, burn and export the file for your personal non-commerical use... given that I use Final Scratch to DJ would that be considered commercial use? That's usually covered by the license the venue holds for traditional DJs. Hmmmmm. Would have been nice if the .mp3 files in the .zip I downloaded were named rather than just 01.zip through 04.zip - though importing them into iTunes sorted that out. Good that they aren't using DRM encumbered files. Would have been nice to see an option on formats [AAC, Ogg Vorbis, maybe WMA] so people could choose their weapon of choice. Out of curiosity, what would the members of the list reckon is a fair price to pay for a .mp3 file? ... And what would the preferred audio format be? on 14/1/04 2:49 pm the person going by the name chthonic streams at chthonic@chthonicstreams.com spake :

quoted 13 lines and songs are $1.35. oof.

>> and songs are $1.35. oof. > > for a thin-sounding, crappy mp3? fuk that. just let me know when > new CDs are released. > > > d. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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Muffin said:

quoted 4 lines The T&Cs are interesting: You are allowed to copy, burn and export the

> The T&Cs are interesting: You are allowed to copy, burn and export the > file for your personal non-commerical use... given that I use Final > Scratch to DJ would that be considered commercial use? That's usually > covered by the license the venue holds for traditional DJs. Hmmmmm.

Exactly. The MP3s fall under the same idea as a standard cd/vinyl release, so if you play it out you fall under the dj licenses that normally apply.

quoted 3 lines Good that they aren't using DRM encumbered files. Would have been nice

> Good that they aren't using DRM encumbered files. Would have been nice > to see an option on formats [AAC, Ogg Vorbis, maybe WMA] so people could > choose their weapon of choice.

Agreed. Although, the MP3 files are at a high enough bitrate that it doesn't really bother me. I have hope that they'll explore other options, since it doesn't affect bandwidth, only server storage, and that's generally cheap nowadays.

quoted 3 lines Out of curiosity, what would the members of the list reckon is a fair

> Out of curiosity, what would the members of the list reckon is a fair > price to pay for a .mp3 file? ... And what would the preferred audio > format be?

I like OGG, out of general sound principle, and I don't have any real problem with the prices that seem to be abound -- between .99 and 1.50 a track, $10 or so for a full album. I just finished encoding every CD I own to OGG so I have access to it at my fingertips, so it's not entirely different to me at this point. In fact, I wouldn't be worried about running out of space for storage anymore :D -- eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines Exactly. The MP3s fall under the same idea as a standard cd/vinyl

> Exactly. The MP3s fall under the same idea as a standard cd/vinyl > release, so if you play it out you fall under the dj licenses that > normally apply.

I hope so.

quoted 4 lines Agreed. Although, the MP3 files are at a high enough bitrate that it

> Agreed. Although, the MP3 files are at a high enough bitrate that it > doesn't really bother me. I have hope that they'll explore other options, > since it doesn't affect bandwidth, only server storage, and that's > generally cheap nowadays.

Encoding an entire back catalogue can be a pain too. Especially when releases aren't on CD... Or you don't even have masters to produce from. The encoding itself can be batched, but getting the meta data right is a pain... None of the contributed DB systems are reliable, and getting a monkey to do it means mistakes.

quoted 6 lines I like OGG, out of general sound principle, and I don't have any real

> I like OGG, out of general sound principle, and I don't have any real > problem with the prices that seem to be abound -- between .99 and 1.50 a > track, $10 or so for a full album. I just finished encoding every CD I > own to OGG so I have access to it at my fingertips, so it's not entirely > different to me at this point. In fact, I wouldn't be worried about > running out of space for storage anymore :D

Apart from diskspace / backup space. _d._ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Muffin said:

quoted 5 lines Encoding an entire back catalogue can be a pain too. Especially when

> Encoding an entire back catalogue can be a pain too. Especially when > releases aren't on CD... Or you don't even have masters to produce from. > The encoding itself can be batched, but getting the meta data right is a > pain... None of the contributed DB systems are reliable, and getting a > monkey to do it means mistakes.

Yeah, but that's part of the cost of doing an online mp3 catalog of your past releases, so it's not really extra money. Especially as it's one-time -- once you have the mp3's and 2 backups, that's it. Bandwidth costs are a constant accruance.

quoted 9 lines I like OGG, out of general sound principle, and I don't have any real

> >> I like OGG, out of general sound principle, and I don't have any real >> problem with the prices that seem to be abound -- between .99 and 1.50 >> a track, $10 or so for a full album. I just finished encoding every >> CD I own to OGG so I have access to it at my fingertips, so it's not >> entirely different to me at this point. In fact, I wouldn't be >> worried about running out of space for storage anymore :D > > Apart from diskspace / backup space.

Yeah, but how cheap is that? my 400+ CDs only take up 25 gigs, which is nothing in the half-terrabyte my girlfriend and I share between our various computers. And it's on teeny harddrives, the size of 2, maybe 3 cds. Compared to the cd tower and the wood rack that the cds are on now? Size and space is cheap now, in the scheme of things. -- eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Aaron D Meyers said:

quoted 1 line and songs are $1.35. oof.

> and songs are $1.35. oof.

But albums are $9.99, and they state that the artist gets half of the price, not a paltry .07-.10 like iTunes. Still. Oooh no, 36 cents more! If it goes over the album price jsut buy the album. derek -- eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Well, maybe you're better off than you think... here in the UK each track is 99p - at the current $ exchange rate isn't that about the $1.80 mark?? :-) God, rip-off Britain eh? (humour...) They also mention that they're looking at a sliding scale pricing model as well (i.e. you buy more, you pay less per track)... john.. -- 7" single out now on iwari.com - namke communications: ice-9/salo http://www.iwari.com/ http://www.minimism.com/ --------------- Quoting Eggy Toast <eggy@eggtastic.com>:

quoted 14 lines Aaron D Meyers said:

> > Aaron D Meyers said: > > and songs are $1.35. oof. > > > But albums are $9.99, and they state that the artist gets half of the > price, not a paltry .07-.10 like iTunes. > > Still. Oooh no, 36 cents more! If it goes over the album price jsut buy > the album. > > derek > -- > eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com

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Man. All I know is that I can't wait to get home and start downloading some of that old stuff. I'll still be buying physical product when it comes to most of the new stuff, but to be able to get some of this old crap is going to be awesome. I'm surprised that they don't have We R Are Why, though. Might have to ask about that. I could still kick myself for not buying that during the early days of WarpMart. Oh yeah, and HAB1. Later, Alan np:DJ Shadow/Cut Chemist:Product Placement Quoting Eggy Toast <eggy@eggtastic.com>:

quoted 23 lines Aaron D Meyers said:

> > Aaron D Meyers said: > > and songs are $1.35. oof. > > > But albums are $9.99, and they state that the artist gets half of the > price, not a paltry .07-.10 like iTunes. > > Still. Oooh no, 36 cents more! If it goes over the album price jsut > buy > the album. > > derek > -- > eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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I took a browse around, the concept of downloading mp3s instead of some DRM file is very cool. I'm sure that people are going to download and share them on soulseek or whatever, but that is not the audience that warp is expecting to sell tracks to. It seems they are just giving honest people the opportunity to download some high quality tracks at a decent price. Too bad the site design is ass though. For being called 'the designers republic', they make the worst freaking ui for websites ever. Did anyone try browsing through the list of artists? You have to hover your mouse over a tiny little down arrow to scroll down the list of artists. The list scrolls pretty fast and it only shows about 10 items at a time. It wouldn't kill them to use a standard scroll bar on a web page to scroll through content. --- "Alan R. Lucas" <arlucas@telerama.com> wrote:

quoted 43 lines Man. All I know is that I can't wait to get home and

> Man. All I know is that I can't wait to get home and > start downloading some > of that old stuff. I'll still be buying physical > product when it comes to > most of the new stuff, but to be able to get some of > this old crap is going > to be awesome. > > I'm surprised that they don't have We R Are Why, > though. Might have to ask > about that. I could still kick myself for not buying > that during the early > days of WarpMart. Oh yeah, and HAB1. > > Later, > Alan > > np:DJ Shadow/Cut Chemist:Product Placement > > Quoting Eggy Toast <eggy@eggtastic.com>: > > > > > Aaron D Meyers said: > > > and songs are $1.35. oof. > > > > > > But albums are $9.99, and they state that the > artist gets half of the > > price, not a paltry .07-.10 like iTunes. > > > > Still. Oooh no, 36 cents more! If it goes over > the album price jsut > > buy > > the album. > > > > derek > > -- > > eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com > > > > > > > > >

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quoted 5 lines To unsubscribe, e-mail:

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Yeah, that interface really sucks. It doesn't even allow direct access to certin parts... Check: Boards of Canada, for example. In the "tracks" section on the bottom doesn't even seem to have the (silly, counterproductive) arrows to scroll down. We see the a's.... Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I maximized my window and played around with it a bit... Oh well. I wonder if the Warp people are reading these posts for feedback. If so: thanks for the access. The idea is great, but the site could use some tweaking. -Brandon Brandon <djresonance@yahoo.com> wrote: I took a browse around, the concept of downloading mp3s instead of some DRM file is very cool. I'm sure that people are going to download and share them on soulseek or whatever, but that is not the audience that warp is expecting to sell tracks to. It seems they are just giving honest people the opportunity to download some high quality tracks at a decent price. Too bad the site design is ass though. For being called 'the designers republic', they make the worst freaking ui for websites ever. Did anyone try browsing through the list of artists? You have to hover your mouse over a tiny little down arrow to scroll down the list of artists. The list scrolls pretty fast and it only shows about 10 items at a time. It wouldn't kill them to use a standard scroll bar on a web page to scroll through content. --- "Alan R. Lucas" wrote:

quoted 43 lines Man. All I know is that I can't wait to get home and

> Man. All I know is that I can't wait to get home and > start downloading some > of that old stuff. I'll still be buying physical > product when it comes to > most of the new stuff, but to be able to get some of > this old crap is going > to be awesome. > > I'm surprised that they don't have We R Are Why, > though. Might have to ask > about that. I could still kick myself for not buying > that during the early > days of WarpMart. Oh yeah, and HAB1. > > Later, > Alan > > np:DJ Shadow/Cut Chemist:Product Placement > > Quoting Eggy Toast : > > > > > Aaron D Meyers said: > > > and songs are $1.35. oof. > > > > > > But albums are $9.99, and they state that the > artist gets half of the > > price, not a paltry .07-.10 like iTunes. > > > > Still. Oooh no, 36 cents more! If it goes over > the album price jsut > > buy > > the album. > > > > derek > > -- > > eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com > > > > > > > > >

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What I find exciting as well is that they are going to start selling tracks from other, labels a la Warpmart, so it'll be a one stop shop for all your bleepy needs.

quoted 35 lines Man. All I know is that I can't wait to get home and start downloading some

>Man. All I know is that I can't wait to get home and start downloading some >of that old stuff. I'll still be buying physical product when it comes to >most of the new stuff, but to be able to get some of this old crap is going >to be awesome. > >I'm surprised that they don't have We R Are Why, though. Might have to ask >about that. I could still kick myself for not buying that during the early >days of WarpMart. Oh yeah, and HAB1. > >Later, >Alan > >np:DJ Shadow/Cut Chemist:Product Placement > >Quoting Eggy Toast <eggy@eggtastic.com>: > > > >>Aaron D Meyers said: >> >> >>>and songs are $1.35. oof. >>> >>> >>But albums are $9.99, and they state that the artist gets half of the >>price, not a paltry .07-.10 like iTunes. >> >>Still. Oooh no, 36 cents more! If it goes over the album price jsut >>buy >>the album. >> >>derek >>-- >>eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com >>

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Alan R. Lucas said:

quoted 8 lines Man. All I know is that I can't wait to get home and start downloading

> Man. All I know is that I can't wait to get home and start downloading > some of that old stuff. I'll still be buying physical product when it > comes to most of the new stuff, but to be able to get some of this old > crap is going to be awesome. > > I'm surprised that they don't have We R Are Why, though. Might have to > ask about that. I could still kick myself for not buying that during the > early days of WarpMart. Oh yeah, and HAB1.

I'm not a fan of we r are why, but that's my opinion :D It looks like they got some of the important things up their first, and they'll likely have their entire catalog up eventually. They probably simply looked at the old stuff they sold to see which did better and focused on that, and then hit up eBay to see which old releases were getting the highest prices ;D I like that, thanks to this service, they also have many more previews for new and old songs. -- eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Derek, Its nice to play the devil's advocate and all, but I think it would give a lot of people peace of mind to know that in case their hard drive crashes or any other such disaster takes place, they could easily replace the music they have purchased. And if we're gonna take everything Warp says about Bleep at face value, then we can't assume its a security measure against people letting others use their account to download all their licensed music. See this exceprt from the faq: "We believe that most people like to be treated as customers and not potential criminals". -Aaron ----- Original Message ----- From: Eggy Toast <eggy@eggtastic.com> Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 9:59 am Subject: Re: [idm] Bleep

quoted 16 lines You pay for each download because they don't want to incur

> You pay for each download because they don't want to incur > bandwidth costs > for multiple people downloading from the same account. It's just > web-based, and you don't need to install and use some proprietary > program,so if I were to buy 5 albums and could download them over > and over again, > I could just pass my username and password around until everyone > downloaded it. Makes sense why they would say "hey, you can make > as many > copies as you want, so back up the stuff you download!" > > Not sure if iTunes has the same protection or not. > -- > eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com > >

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Back up all of your important files, yo. If by some other disaster you mean earthquake, flood, etc... I'm sure if you send Warp some photos of the damage they'd be happy to help you out. ;) Alan (playing serious devil's advocate/asshole here. sorry. couldn't resist) Quoting Aaron D Meyers <adm226@nyu.edu>:

quoted 14 lines Derek,

> Derek, > > Its nice to play the devil's advocate and all, but I think it would give > a lot of people peace of mind to know that in case their hard drive > crashes or any other such disaster takes place, they could easily replace > the music they have purchased. And if we're gonna take everything Warp > says about Bleep at face value, then we can't assume its a security > measure against people letting others use their account to download all > their licensed music. See this exceprt from the faq: "We believe that > most people like to be treated as customers and not potential > criminals". > > -Aaron >

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on 14/1/04 3:24 pm the person going by the name Alan R. Lucas at arlucas@telerama.com spake :

quoted 1 line Back up all of your important files, yo.

> Back up all of your important files, yo.

People should learn this and not be so flippant about it. Though saying that I've got about a terrabyte of storage space in my flat - backing up that is a _fucker_.

quoted 4 lines If by some other disaster you mean earthquake, flood, etc... I'm sure if you

> If by some other disaster you mean earthquake, flood, etc... I'm sure if you > send Warp some photos of the damage they'd be happy to help you out. ;) > > Alan (playing serious devil's advocate/asshole here. sorry. couldn't resist)

Yeah. All I had to do was write to them and say that 5 of the 12"s I bought from them got stolen with my record bag when I was djing one night and they just sent me new copies ;-) [That's sarcasm by the way] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Aaron D Meyers said:

quoted 11 lines Derek,

> Derek, > > Its nice to play the devil's advocate and all, but I think it would give > a lot of people peace of mind to know that in case their hard drive > crashes or any other such disaster takes place, they could easily > replace the music they have purchased. And if we're gonna take > everything Warp says about Bleep at face value, then we can't assume its > a security measure against people letting others use their account to > download all their licensed music. See this exceprt from the faq: "We > believe that most people like to be treated as customers and not > potential criminals".

I suppose. I wish normal CD stores did the same thing, in case of theft or fire I could just go back to the store and say "hey, I bought this CD already, give me another copy!" derek -- eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

5 or 6 years ago, my CD binder containing about 150 CD's was stolen out of my car. Luckily, it was covered by my parents' home-owner's insurance. So even though I had to cough up a handsome $500 deductable and the process of replacing CD's and sending in receipts was somewhat arduous, I bounced back. More recently, this last April, when I was living in this rather shitty apartment, some kind of freakish power surge left my hard drive completely fried, all data unrecoverable. I lost a project I'd been working on for about 4 months and had put many hours of work into that I'd never get back. Additionally, I had a sizeable collection of mp3's I'd downloaded from Soulseek that I'd lost too. In the end, I got most of the mp3's I wanted back. Guess how I did it? Soulseek! The point is, if you are going to buy digital music, just because it doesn't have the same physicallity of a CD or record, that doesn't mean that you don't deserve some kind of protection in your investment and I feel like Bleep.com would be in a good position to do it. It would make it a way more attractive service if I knew I could access anything I'd gotten from Bleep.com at any computer, anytime. -Aaron P.S. Let's not talk about how I should have backed up my computer before that disaster in April. Its a bitter memory and I'll never make that mistake again. ----- Original Message ----- From: Eggy Toast <eggy@eggtastic.com> Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:26 am Subject: Re: [idm] Bleep

quoted 35 lines Aaron D Meyers said:

> > Aaron D Meyers said: > > Derek, > > > > Its nice to play the devil's advocate and all, but I think it > would give > > a lot of people peace of mind to know that in case their hard drive > > crashes or any other such disaster takes place, they could easily > > replace the music they have purchased. And if we're gonna take > > everything Warp says about Bleep at face value, then we can't > assume its > > a security measure against people letting others use their > account to > > download all their licensed music. See this exceprt from the > faq: "We > > believe that most people like to be treated as customers and not > > potential criminals". > > I suppose. I wish normal CD stores did the same thing, in case of > theftor fire I could just go back to the store and say "hey, I > bought this CD > already, give me another copy!" > > derek > -- > eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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Deserve some kind of protection for your investment? When you're downloading a bunch of your music from Soulseek? Don't those artists deserve some compensation for their work? And I hate to say it, but if you have a big, important project that you're working on, you should be making periodic backups. Quoting Aaron D Meyers <adm226@nyu.edu>:

quoted 26 lines 5 or 6 years ago, my CD binder containing about 150 CD's was stolen out

> 5 or 6 years ago, my CD binder containing about 150 CD's was stolen out > of my car. Luckily, it was covered by my parents' home-owner's insurance. > So even though I had to cough up a handsome $500 deductable and the > process of replacing CD's and sending in receipts was somewhat arduous, I > bounced back. > > More recently, this last April, when I was living in this rather shitty > apartment, some kind of freakish power surge left my hard drive > completely fried, all data unrecoverable. I lost a project I'd been > working on for about 4 months and had put many hours of work into that > I'd never get back. Additionally, I had a sizeable collection of mp3's > I'd downloaded from Soulseek that I'd lost too. In the end, I got most of > the mp3's I wanted back. Guess how I did it? Soulseek! The point is, if > you are going to buy digital music, just because it doesn't have the same > physicallity of a CD or record, that doesn't mean that you don't deserve > some kind of protection in your investment and I feel like Bleep.com > would be in a good position to do it. It would make it a way more > attractive service if I knew I could access anything I'd gotten from > Bleep.com at any computer, anytime. > > -Aaron > > P.S. Let's not talk about how I should have backed up my computer before > that disaster in April. Its a bitter memory and I'll never make that > mistake again. >

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Aaron D Meyers said:

quoted 3 lines P.S. Let's not talk about how I should have backed up my computer before

> P.S. Let's not talk about how I should have backed up my computer before > that disaster in April. Its a bitter memory and I'll never make that > mistake again.

I am playing big-evil-demon's advocate, and I agree with you, that a system of backup from the seller's site would be very nice indeed. It's one of the reasons I've never jumped up and down in excitement over online MP3 sales. I'm still not putting my money where my mouth is in support of bleep.com, and I likely won't for a while, for most of the same reasons you mention -- what if? But you do raise a point I've come to accept regarding CDs in the car, and it took me a while to get it through my head that I should simply have copies of the CDs I want to take in the car instead of the actual CD, simply because original CDs cost 12+ and copies cost $.10. I'm lucky to never have had something stolen from my car, but I'd hate to go through that experience. Of course, I also know that those Labradford CDs I have aren't ever going to get listened to in the car, which is why my car CD case only holds about 20 CDs :D I could see it being a very valuable extra feature, but making it optional. perhaps a 'subscription' based setup for bleep.com that would store all of your past purchases, or an extra few cents/dollars per song/album for a 3?5?10? year backup of the songs you purchased. derek -- eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 6 lines I am playing big-evil-demon's advocate, and I agree with you, that a

> I am playing big-evil-demon's advocate, and I agree with you, that a > system of backup from the seller's site would be very nice indeed. It's > one of the reasons I've never jumped up and down in excitement over online > MP3 sales. I'm still not putting my money where my mouth is in support of > bleep.com, and I likely won't for a while, for most of the same reasons > you mention -- what if?

I'm with you. I reckon a 'download 10 times' or something policy would be good. That would give scope for it to be retrieved if necessary. Also holding a record of your purchase history so that you can therefore download for a 'download fee', say 5p a track. You'd only be able to do that in bulk. The problem here is the size of the payment for download, as the bandwidth costs are negligable after a while.... I've got to check with my ISP, but they told me they were charging me £1.60/GB for additional bandwidth over my base usage, meaning each track costs about £0.016 to be downloaded. If everyone was constantly re-downloading it would add up, but charging for 'just download' is impossible because of the credit card companies rates and refusal to carry true micropayments.

quoted 4 lines I could see it being a very valuable extra feature, but making it

> I could see it being a very valuable extra feature, but making it > optional. perhaps a 'subscription' based setup for bleep.com that would > store all of your past purchases, or an extra few cents/dollars per > song/album for a 3?5?10? year backup of the songs you purchased.

Makes a lot of sense: pay an extra £2 per 100 downloads of already purchased files, a stack of download credits for your purchased catalogue. Then they don't bankrupt themselves by offering open ended downloads. Thanks for the useful discussion peeps! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

When I was talking about a protection for your investment, I was referring to buying digital music legally from Bleep.com. Of course its completely ridiculous to expect some kind of protection in an investment that you never made (i.e. illegally downloading music). Its a hairy issue and thats why its interesting to discuss. -Aaron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan R. Lucas" <arlucas@telerama.com> Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:42 am Subject: Re: [idm] Bleep

quoted 55 lines Deserve some kind of protection for your investment? When you're

> Deserve some kind of protection for your investment? When you're > downloadinga bunch of your music from Soulseek? Don't those > artists deserve some > compensation for their work? > > And I hate to say it, but if you have a big, important project > that you're > working on, you should be making periodic backups. > > > Quoting Aaron D Meyers <adm226@nyu.edu>: > > > 5 or 6 years ago, my CD binder containing about 150 CD's was > stolen out > > of my car. Luckily, it was covered by my parents' home-owner's > insurance.> So even though I had to cough up a handsome $500 > deductable and the > > process of replacing CD's and sending in receipts was somewhat > arduous, I > > bounced back. > > > > More recently, this last April, when I was living in this rather > shitty> apartment, some kind of freakish power surge left my hard > drive> completely fried, all data unrecoverable. I lost a project > I'd been > > working on for about 4 months and had put many hours of work > into that > > I'd never get back. Additionally, I had a sizeable collection of > mp3's> I'd downloaded from Soulseek that I'd lost too. In the end, > I got most of > > the mp3's I wanted back. Guess how I did it? Soulseek! The point > is, if > > you are going to buy digital music, just because it doesn't have > the same > > physicallity of a CD or record, that doesn't mean that you don't > deserve> some kind of protection in your investment and I feel > like Bleep.com > > would be in a good position to do it. It would make it a way more > > attractive service if I knew I could access anything I'd gotten from > > Bleep.com at any computer, anytime. > > > > -Aaron > > > > P.S. Let's not talk about how I should have backed up my > computer before > > that disaster in April. Its a bitter memory and I'll never make that > > mistake again. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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Alan R. Lucas said:

quoted 6 lines So do you backup your stuff mostly for convenience/protection? Or to

> So do you backup your stuff mostly for convenience/protection? Or to > replace the physical product? I'm just curious. I've been ripping a > bunch of my CDs because I recently got a Zen 30gb player, and I'm soon > to back the mp3s on my PC to DVD. But I could never settle for only > having the backup copies and not the physical product. I'm a sucker for > packaging.

I am too (a sucker for packaging), which is why you aren't seeing a buttload of ebay listings from me right about now :D My next hurdle is getting all of my vinyl into mp3, but that's a bit more of an ordeal, obviously :D I backup my stuff for both reasons mentioned, actually. Now that I have everything I'm going to do some basic sorting, and then burn big chunks to DVD for backup. But it's mostly to replace the physical product whilst I'm at home. When I get in the mood for a song, I'd rather just play that song compared to find the CD, pop it in, cue up that track, listen, then do the process again when I feel like listening to a few different tracks in a row. But I let people borrow the actual CDs, and I usually just copy the whole album for the car, or pop it in when I feel like listening to the album in its entirety and just chill out and hear all of the tracks. But I have the advantage (?) of being in an apartment that is rather wired, and there's computers in the "office" and another one in the living room, all on the LAN, so I can play the OGG files anywhere. If that wasn't the case, those albums would definitely get more playing time on their own. Of course, now that *everything* is on the computer, I'm probably more likely to tend towards bleep.com. Good timing in that regard :D -- eggytoast.com : eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

ah yes bleep... abort that 400mb download 3/4 of the way through...yes... do it again... so great... Clint Anderson Systems Engineer "Freedom -- paint me a picture!" -- Burton Cummings