IDM Mailing Archive

2003-03-11 21:51clets see. an artist makes a record. a record company makes a product. sells that product t

From:: c <c@scarcelight.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:51:14 -0600
Subject:: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (

lets see. an artist makes a record. a record company makes a product. sells that product to a consumer. the artist then (illegally) copies it. posts it on the net. web surfer downloads it and burns a copy. two copies, same record. one was paid for, the other was not. how is that any different than the downloader walking into the store and taking a copy ? and when did a physical compact disc or LP become intellectual property. any label owners on the list want to offer their two cents ? i appreciate the different perspectives, even if i dont personally agree Josh Steiner wrote:

quoted 1 line really? stealing implies that you *take* something from someone, if i

> really? stealing implies that you *take* something from someone, if i

quoted 1 line download an mp3 of thriller, does michael jackson spend an hour

> download an mp3 of thriller, does michael jackson spend an hour

digging

quoted 4 lines through his record collection trying to find the copy that i "stole"

> through his record collection trying to find the copy that i "stole" > from him? > > intellectual property is a broken concept.

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2003-03-11 21:58Josh Steinerc wrote: >lets see. an artist makes a record. a record company makes a product. >sells tha

From:: Josh Steiner <joschi@eds.org>
To:: c <c@scarcelight.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:58:18 -0800
Subject:: Re: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (
Reply to:: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (

c wrote:

quoted 8 lines lets see. an artist makes a record. a record company makes a product.

>lets see. an artist makes a record. a record company makes a product. >sells that product to a consumer. the artist then (illegally) copies it. >posts it on the net. web surfer downloads it and burns a copy. > >two copies, same record. one was paid for, the other was not. how is >that any different than the downloader walking into the store and taking >a copy ? >

you dont see the difference? really? in your first example, tower records is out a cd, they literally loose $5 ... in the second case the only deprivation of resources is to the people paying the bills for the internet bandwidth. the traditional concept of theft just does not apply to ideas (mp3's are just ideas expressed electronically, magnetically, optically, what have you) and only because disney et all have a vested interest in turning ideas into property do our laws suddently reflect this.

quoted 35 lines and when did a physical compact disc or LP become intellectual property.

> >and when did a physical compact disc or LP become intellectual property. > >any label owners on the list want to offer their two cents ? >i appreciate the different perspectives, even if i dont personally agree > >Josh Steiner wrote: > > > >>really? stealing implies that you *take* something from someone, if i >> >> > > > >>download an mp3 of thriller, does michael jackson spend an hour >> >> >digging > > >>through his record collection trying to find the copy that i "stole" >>from him? >> >>intellectual property is a broken concept. >> >> > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

-- ____________________________________________________ independent u.s. drum'n'bass -- http://vitriolix.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2003-03-11 21:58EggyToastc said: > lets see. an artist makes a record. a record company makes a product. > sells th

From:: EggyToast <eggy@eggtastic.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:58:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject:: Re: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (
Reply to:: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (

c said:

quoted 8 lines lets see. an artist makes a record. a record company makes a product.

> lets see. an artist makes a record. a record company makes a product. > sells that product to a consumer. the artist then (illegally) copies > it. posts it on the net. web surfer downloads it and burns a copy. > > two copies, same record. one was paid for, the other was not. how is > that any different than the downloader walking into the store and > taking a copy ? >

How much did the label spend on that CD-r compared to the physical CD? The retailer for the whole package? How much did that cover art costs to produce? The jewel case? in the example of someone buying the actual CD, everyone is making money (except the consumer). In the case of the stolen retail CD, everyone is losing money (except the consumer). In the case of MP3, no one is *losing* money (including the consumer). derek -- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ------ catchy signature coming soon --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2003-03-11 23:55Muffinon 11/3/03 9:58 pm the person going by the name EggyToast at eggy@eggtastic.com spake : >

From:: Muffin <muffin@signmytits.com>
To:: IDM <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 23:55:03 +0000
Subject:: Re: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (
Reply to:: Re: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (

on 11/3/03 9:58 pm the person going by the name EggyToast at eggy@eggtastic.com spake :

quoted 18 lines c said:

> c said: >> lets see. an artist makes a record. a record company makes a product. >> sells that product to a consumer. the artist then (illegally) copies >> it. posts it on the net. web surfer downloads it and burns a copy. >> >> two copies, same record. one was paid for, the other was not. how is >> that any different than the downloader walking into the store and >> taking a copy ? >> > > How much did the label spend on that CD-r compared to the physical CD? The > retailer for the whole package? How much did that cover art costs to > produce? The jewel case? > > in the example of someone buying the actual CD, everyone is making money > (except the consumer). In the case of the stolen retail CD, everyone is > losing money (except the consumer). In the case of MP3, no one is *losing* > money (including the consumer).

Funny, it costs money when people download from my server. Money goes to the Telcos... It costs the record label or producer time or money to set up a website [a varying amount depending on effort]. However it costs considerably _less_ money than traditional distribution methods, may be more environmentally friendly than traditional production and distribution and has the power to put the producer and the consumer onto a more even footing in the reward/consumption balancing act. It's not theft if the label want to give it away, but it does cost money. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

2003-03-11 22:04John ReadingI love how whenever the discussion about pirating music comes up on this list, people alwa

From:: John Reading <john.reading@us.didata.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:04:52 -0500
Subject:: RE: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (

I love how whenever the discussion about pirating music comes up on this list, people always use examples with Tower, Disney, Warner Bros., Atlantic. When all the stuff getting pirated here is really small underground labels like Skam, Eastern Dev, Warp, Rephlex.

quoted 2 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Steiner [mailto:joschi@eds.org]

quoted 1 line c wrote:

> c wrote:

quoted 13 lines you dont see the difference? really? in your first example, tower

> > > you dont see the difference? really? in your first example, tower > records is out a cd, they literally loose $5 ... in the > second case the > only deprivation of resources is to the people paying the > bills for the > internet bandwidth. the traditional concept of theft just does not > apply to ideas (mp3's are just ideas expressed electronically, > magnetically, optically, what have you) and only because > disney et all > have a vested interest in turning ideas into property do our laws > suddently reflect this. >

quoted 1 line

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2003-03-11 22:09Josh Steinerwell, disney has a huge lobby pushing the unreasonable extension of copyright, therefore t

From:: Josh Steiner <joschi@eds.org>
To:: John Reading <john.reading@us.didata.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:09:03 -0800
Subject:: Re: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (
Reply to:: RE: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (

well, disney has a huge lobby pushing the unreasonable extension of copyright, therefore they make a great example. as for tower, i was replying to a post about taking a cd from a store, so tower makes a good amount of sense, as i'm not sure how one could shoplift from warpmart ;) John Reading wrote:

quoted 46 lines I love how whenever the discussion about pirating music comes up on this

>I love how whenever the discussion about pirating music comes up on this >list, people always use examples with Tower, Disney, Warner Bros., >Atlantic. > >When all the stuff getting pirated here is really small underground >labels like Skam, Eastern Dev, Warp, Rephlex. > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Josh Steiner [mailto:joschi@eds.org] >> >> > > > >>c wrote: >> >> > > > >>you dont see the difference? really? in your first example, tower >>records is out a cd, they literally loose $5 ... in the >>second case the >>only deprivation of resources is to the people paying the >>bills for the >>internet bandwidth. the traditional concept of theft just does not >>apply to ideas (mp3's are just ideas expressed electronically, >>magnetically, optically, what have you) and only because >>disney et all >>have a vested interest in turning ideas into property do our laws >>suddently reflect this. >> >> >> > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

2003-03-11 22:21cthats kind of like saying it is ok to steal candy from a store as long as you remove the p

From:: c <c@scarcelight.com>
To:: <eggy@eggtastic.om>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:21:31 -0600
Subject:: Re: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (

thats kind of like saying it is ok to steal candy from a store as long as you remove the packaging EggyToast wrote:

quoted 29 lines c said:

> c said: > > lets see. an artist makes a record. a record company makes a product. > > sells that product to a consumer. the artist then (illegally) copies > > it. posts it on the net. web surfer downloads it and burns a copy. > > > > two copies, same record. one was paid for, the other was not. how is > > that any different than the downloader walking into the store and > > taking a copy ? > > > > How much did the label spend on that CD-r compared to the physical CD? The > retailer for the whole package? How much did that cover art costs to > produce? The jewel case? > > in the example of someone buying the actual CD, everyone is making money > (except the consumer). In the case of the stolen retail CD, everyone is > losing money (except the consumer). In the case of MP3, no one is *losing* > money (including the consumer). > > derek > > -- > eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com > ------ > catchy signature coming soon > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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2003-03-11 23:59EggyToastHow? The candy is a physical product. An mp3, and basically all digital works that are in

From:: EggyToast <eggy@eggtastic.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:59:47 -0500
Subject:: Re: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (
Reply to:: Re: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (

How? The candy is a physical product. An mp3, and basically all digital works that are in digital media, aren't gone when they're "stolen" - they're still sitting right where you left them. The whole argument against theft is that you're taking someone from someone else. If they're not losing anything, how is that theft? derek At 04:21 PM 3/11/2003 -0600, c wrote:

quoted 40 lines thats kind of like saying it is ok to steal candy from a store as long as you

>thats kind of like saying it is ok to steal candy from a store as long as you >remove the packaging > >EggyToast wrote: > > > c said: > > > lets see. an artist makes a record. a record company makes a product. > > > sells that product to a consumer. the artist then (illegally) copies > > > it. posts it on the net. web surfer downloads it and burns a copy. > > > > > > two copies, same record. one was paid for, the other was not. how is > > > that any different than the downloader walking into the store and > > > taking a copy ? > > > > > > > How much did the label spend on that CD-r compared to the physical CD? The > > retailer for the whole package? How much did that cover art costs to > > produce? The jewel case? > > > > in the example of someone buying the actual CD, everyone is making money > > (except the consumer). In the case of the stolen retail CD, everyone is > > losing money (except the consumer). In the case of MP3, no one is > *losing* > > money (including the consumer). > > > > derek > > > > -- > > eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com > > ------ > > catchy signature coming soon > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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Re: [idm] re: Indie Ethics (