IDM Mailing Archive

sorry to breakdown your reply like this, but it's much easier than ranting again :) In a message dated 4/23/2002 12:09:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, gozravp@yahoo.com writes:

quoted 4 lines In that, I

> In that, I > mean that the music produced is most often far too > involved to try and "get" anything more than, well, > music out of it.

music is evocative. music is not just wallpaper. i don't think i would love music so much if it were all about how the aesthetic of a certain song appealed to me. it's a lot deeper than that. there is heavy emotional appeal in a lot of music from the big phil spector pop productions to classical to country to the weird "out-there" experimental stuff... there definitely is music which doesn't resonate with me emotionally, and if that music doesn't appeal to my dancing sensibilities, chances are i'm not going to be interested in it. T>

quoted 5 lines but to be so direct as to consider the sex of the

> but to be so direct as to consider the sex of the > artist up front seems a bit odd to me. If I wanted to > understand or explore a cultural divide [ethnic, > political, gender] I'll listen to punk rock or - god > forbid - talk radio. But trying bring attention to

here, i think you're missing the point. sure, there is idm out there that's created without any kind of gender agenda (that's fun to say, huh? gender agend gender agenda). probably most of it is not created with an underlying "plan" to manifest specific female or male ideas, but the artists sex surely informs their perspective, identity, and hence these things are reflected in their creative output. and while i can see why these things wouldn't interest you if you listen to idm for purely sonic reasons, as someone who tries to get something beyond finding the coolest bleep sound ever out of the music, these factors play a role in the way i listen to all music.

quoted 3 lines such idm just seems a bit silly. The last thing on

> such idm just seems a bit silly. The last thing on > my mind when I put dat politics in my disc player is > "I wonder which beep the woman member was making..."

again... that's not what this is about... it's not about justifying creative output by assigning the gender of the artist to the author. it's about recognizing the things in the music that are uniquely female. dat politics is a group i don't necessarily hear a male or female point counterpoint kind of dynamic in... but there is some girly sounding pop on the new record :)

quoted 6 lines Remember the BOC is gay string that wouldn't die? I

> Remember the BOC is gay string that wouldn't die? I > see this discussion about as meaningful. They both > end up at the same place: who cares? Either you like > someone's music or you don't. If the sex of the > creator is something anybody needs to consider when > judging a work, perhaps they are missing the point.

yes, if you listen to something purely because it's female or male then there's probably a problem with the music to begin with (you should be able to enjoy anything on its own merit, right? heavily conceptual stuff usually bores the piss out of me and just about everyone i know). choosing things to listen to this way is annoying in the same way that girls who listen to all ani difranco and whatever other lillith fair type things are purely because it's made by women is something i find narrow-minded... if that's someone's type of thing, no offense, i just don't get it. >

quoted 4 lines try to place myself in a social environment where

> try to place myself in a social environment where > gender, race and sex are not considered unless > involving something *directly* related to gender, race > or sex.

everything is directly related to these identifiers because these things directly inform our perspective and the way we experience the world and are reflected in the things we make and enjoy.

quoted 6 lines But if two girls

> > But if two girls > >walked into a coffee shop and, after noticing that > there happen to be twice as many men as women there, > one mentions "hey, this place seems rather 'male > dominated', call your sister and her friends" that > would seem a bit absurd.

yeah, that is absurd... but to compare that to this situation is to trivialize it. it's no small problem. it relates to equal opportunity. coffee shops being filled with more men than women is not important... a community that represents more than half of the population not getting the respect, credit and attention they deserve is a big deal :) sorry to go on so long. i'm sure some people are bored stiff at this point with this thread, but, well, don't read it :) i think this is an interesting debate. no offense intended to anyone who feels contrarily. i'm not some hoighty-toity bleeding heart politically correct guy either, so..... yeah, gregory

At 08:02 PM 4/23/2002 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 22 lines sorry to breakdown your reply like this, but it's much easier than ranting

>sorry to breakdown your reply like this, but it's much easier than ranting >again :) > >In a message dated 4/23/2002 12:09:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, >gozravp@yahoo.com writes: > > > In that, I > > mean that the music produced is most often far too > > involved to try and "get" anything more than, well, > > music out of it. > >music is evocative. music is not just wallpaper. >i don't think i would love music so much if it were >all about how the aesthetic of a certain song appealed >to me. it's a lot deeper than that. there is heavy >emotional appeal in a lot of music from the big phil >spector pop productions to classical to country to the >weird "out-there" experimental stuff... there definitely >is music which doesn't resonate with me emotionally, >and if that music doesn't appeal to my dancing >sensibilities, chances are i'm not going to be interested >in it.

I would say that the background for a lot of music helps the interested listener. We can say "I only care about the music," which, although valiant, hopefully isn't true. I think the whole idea behind "IDM" is that there's more to it than simply music. Since I know Boards of Canada live outside Edinburgh, it makes me wonder if the area doesn't inspire much of the music, and perhaps I'd like to visit there, since the music sure sounds pretty, and maybe the place is, too? Other things, like sounds that feel like rainy days, or walking downtown alone, or falling down a flight of stairs, make me wonder what would add to the experience if i experience those feelings first hand whilst listening to the music. I don't just say "hmm, this sounds like something," I want to know what the artist intended for me to feel, and then wonder why I feel different, and why other people feel different from me. If it was only about the music, we wouldn't have a discussion list about the genre. I also doubt it would be nearly as entertaining and as fun of a genre as it is. derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, EggyToast wrote:

quoted 8 lines I would say that the background for a lot of music helps the interested

> > I would say that the background for a lot of music helps the interested > listener. We can say "I only care about the music," which, although > valiant, hopefully isn't true. I think the whole idea behind "IDM" is that > there's more to it than simply music. Since I know Boards of Canada live > outside Edinburgh, it makes me wonder if the area doesn't inspire much of > the music, and perhaps I'd like to visit there, since the music sure sounds > pretty, and maybe the place is, too?

sure, but i don't need to know (or care to know) what their sexual preferences are, or how long it took them to make a track, or what they had for breakfast, or what lover they were thinking of when they made that particular sound, etc...in fact, i prefer to let the music i listen to evoke images that are my own.

quoted 6 lines Other things, like sounds that feel like rainy days, or walking downtown

> Other things, like sounds that feel like rainy days, or walking downtown > alone, or falling down a flight of stairs, make me wonder what would add to > the experience if i experience those feelings first hand whilst listening > to the music. I don't just say "hmm, this sounds like something," I want > to know what the artist intended for me to feel, and then wonder why I feel > different, and why other people feel different from me.

i don't really care much what the artist intended for me to feel unless they specifically say that's what they want. i mean, it's MY interpretation--it's coming in through MY ears, and affecting my emotions and my physiology and so on. it makes me happy because of who *i* am, not because of who they are...do you see what i mean? that isn't to say that it's wrong to approach things the way you do--it is how it makes you happy too. so yay. and stuff.

quoted 3 lines If it was only about the music, we wouldn't have a discussion list about

> If it was only about the music, we wouldn't have a discussion list about > the genre. I also doubt it would be nearly as entertaining and as fun of a > genre as it is.

sure. and this is far more interesting than "OH MY GOD BOC ARE PEDOPHILES!!()!*$#(*&#" :-D rachel (aka dj pie) piesarenice.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 16 lines music is evocative. music is not just wallpaper.

> music is evocative. music is not just wallpaper. > i don't think i would love music so much if it were > all about how the aesthetic of a certain song > appealed > to me. it's a lot deeper than that. there is heavy > > emotional appeal in a lot of music from the big phil > spector pop productions to classical to country to > the > weird "out-there" experimental stuff... there > definitely > is music which doesn't resonate with me emotionally, > and if that music doesn't appeal to my dancing > sensibilities, chances are i'm not going to be > interested > in it.

I believe that is my place as well, but for opposite reasons. Perhaps I want to break it down to where it isn't emotional, or directly emotional. There is a lot of coldness in much of the music brought up. Very logical.

quoted 22 lines here, i think you're missing the point. sure, there

> here, i think you're missing the point. sure, there > is > idm out there that's created without any kind of > gender > agenda (that's fun to say, huh? gender agend gender > agenda). > probably most of it is not created with an > underlying > "plan" to manifest specific female or male ideas, > but > the artists sex surely informs their perspective, > identity, > and hence these things are reflected in their > creative > output. and while i can see why these things > wouldn't > interest you if you listen to idm for purely sonic > reasons, > as someone who tries to get something beyond finding > the coolest bleep sound ever out of the music, these > factors > play a role in the way i listen to all music.

You are right, and I think I envy that a bit. These are things that I don't think I'm capable of understanding. I do not deny that there is a set agenda necessarily, and I certainly do not deny that the essence of a creator plays an important role in their work, but I also take great comfort in thinking that this music rests slightly below that threshold. That whatever essence a person creating the work had was filtered out into, well, anonymous sonic expression, if you will.

quoted 12 lines again... that's not what this is about... it's not

> again... that's not what this is about... it's not > about justifying > creative output by assigning the gender of the > artist to the > author. it's about recognizing the things in the > music that > are uniquely female. dat politics is a group i > don't necessarily > hear a male or female point counterpoint kind of > dynamic in... > but there is some girly sounding pop on the new > record :)

Perhaps I am not seasoned in searching for the gender identity in this music. Maybe it is that the human element is broad enough to encapsulate both genders in the creative process, and what would normally be the "signs" in most mediums are lost in the coldness of such music. This is disheartening to think, because I feel as though I'm missing something. And yes, the new dat politics record is amazing. Girly sounding though? I just dont see that. Hell, I recognized a bit of my own music in some of their more upbeat tunes. [pie, track3, for example] Interesting, but I don't want to know why.

quoted 13 lines yes, if you listen to something purely because it's

> yes, if you listen to something purely because it's > female > or male then there's probably a problem with the > music to > begin with (you should be able to enjoy anything on > its own > merit, right? heavily conceptual stuff usually bores > the > piss out of me and just about everyone i know). > choosing > things to listen to this way is annoying in the same > way > that girls who listen to all ani difranco

Who is that anyway, and why the fuck does she have a cult of girls following her around?! I've always wondered that. and

quoted 6 lines whatever other

> whatever other > lillith fair type things are purely because it's > made by women > is something i find narrow-minded... if that's > someone's type of > thing, no offense, i just don't get it.

No, I hear you. I wasn't giving the discussion enough credit to begin with, so the generalizations were ultimately my doing. I'm certain that the problem is not about *this* distinction, but one that I'm just not able to understand. Or understand, but not able to recognize. In fact, this is my entire point. My attraction to this music came from not recognizing any distinct emotional elements. And the music is interesting enough to not have to find human substance in it. The machines act as a filter for me. They allow the creator to express himself while filtering any excess meaning. Listen to a cut up vocal sample in, well, almost anything. This, to me, says: we don't care what you say or where it comes from, we just want to exploit it for sonic means. The fact that others on this list get more than that out of it really amazes me; makes me feel as though I'm missing something I'm not sure I want to get. I think you might be onto something when you mentioned "purely sonic means."

quoted 7 lines everything is directly related to these identifiers

> everything is directly related to these identifiers > because > these things directly inform our perspective and the > way > we experience the world and are reflected in the > things > we make and enjoy.

But to such an exact degree? I find listening to much of my collection to be escaping the reflections I find elsewhere, and no other music is interesting enough to allow for this.

quoted 11 lines yeah, that is absurd... but to compare that to this

> yeah, that is absurd... but to compare that to this > situation > is to trivialize it. it's no small problem. it > relates to equal > opportunity. coffee shops being filled with more > men than > women is not important... a community that > represents more > than half of the population not getting the respect, > credit > and attention they deserve is a big deal :)

Of course it is, but that seems to belong elsewhere. Not, I repeat NOT, that these topics are not very serious ones, but the gaining of respect and attention will come from far more direct means. Laptops have little to do with this problem. I could write more, but this is really off the topic of music..

quoted 9 lines sorry to go on so long. i'm sure some people are

> sorry to go on so long. i'm sure some people are > bored stiff > at this point with this thread, but, well, don't > read it :) > i think this is an interesting debate. > no offense intended to anyone who feels contrarily. > i'm not some hoighty-toity bleeding heart > politically correct > guy either, so.....

No, if they don't want to read it, then they shouldn't read it. I found it very interesting. Keep going if you want. I'm sure enough people hate me on this list anyway. ;) Brandon __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines Who is that anyway, and why the fuck does she have a

>Who is that anyway, and why the fuck does she have a >cult of girls following her around?! I've always >wondered that.

Ani Difranco is a baddass singer-songwriter with phenominal guitar playing skills and an excellent sense of melody and rhythm (IMO) who - because she is female, has opinions, and expresses them with conviction - has a cult of little girls following her around. sorry for the OT rant but I just went to a concert of hers and had to interact with these kids it was very frustrating. I guess the point I'd like to make from this is that even if the motivations for starting any kind of gender-specific group may be well founded, it may in the end server to widen and solidify the gender divide. Be it women's music or women's history, which are argueably both very necessary subjects, encouraging people to think along those lines is encouraging men and women not to take each other seriously. the answer, when we find that women aren't being included in one area isn't to go and build them another area, it's to figure out what's wrong with the first one that's keeping them excluded and to fix it. -Paul Hendrick --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

dykes are stupid, women should know their role and that's as slaves. in and out of the bed. nuff said --- mute <wog@diaryland.com> wrote:

quoted 40 lines Who is that anyway, and why the fuck does she have

> >Who is that anyway, and why the fuck does she have > a > >cult of girls following her around?! I've always > >wondered that. > > Ani Difranco is a baddass singer-songwriter with > phenominal guitar > playing skills and an excellent sense of melody and > rhythm (IMO) who - > because she is female, has opinions, and expresses > them with > conviction - has a cult of little girls following > her around. sorry > for the OT rant but I just went to a concert of hers > and had to > interact with these kids it was very frustrating. > > I guess the point I'd like to make from this is that > even if the > motivations for starting any kind of gender-specific > group may be well > founded, it may in the end server to widen and > solidify the gender > divide. Be it women's music or women's history, > which are argueably > both very necessary subjects, encouraging people to > think along those > lines is encouraging men and women not to take each > other seriously. > the answer, when we find that women aren't being > included in one area > isn't to go and build them another area, it's to > figure out what's > wrong with the first one that's keeping them > excluded and to fix it. > > -Paul Hendrick > > >

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quoted 5 lines To unsubscribe, e-mail:

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There we have it folks, the argument to end all arguments. You heard him, nuff said. I guess we all stand corrected. Brandon anyway, so yeah. I'm really wanting another lexaunculpt album to come out. --- milton maynard <milton369@yahoo.com> wrote:

quoted 6 lines dykes are stupid,

> dykes are stupid, > women should know their role and that's as slaves. > in > and out of the bed. > > nuff said

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jesus mary and freeking joseph! this list is getting less "intelligent" by the minute..can't it simply be "EDM-EXPERIMENTAL DANCE MUSIC"... you are obviously an unintelligent bloke saying woment should know their roles in bed...im a single guy dating 3 girls and yes this may be somewhat underhanded of me but i am in no way expecting any of these girls to know exactly what i like in bed...one of them is VERY inexperienced and another is very experienced and the third one i haven't had the oppurtunity to bring back home...but whatever, women are amazing, women are great, if the girls/women on here want their own list, let them decide, i don't think its up to the pretentious males on here to do so... oh yeah, off topic (what is on-topic these days from me??), but could some1 please repost that party announcement for that gig @ the hammerstein ballroom w/ 2lone swordsman, bolz bolz, dj olive etc??? just wondering who the support is gonna be, thanks 1 matt

the information to 2 lone swordsman show and many other upcoming NYC events is up at http://www.recordcamp.com adesh Also, NYCer's Airlocktronics is playing Live tonight at open air, it's the last night of Static at open air so it should be interesting. Static moves to Filter 14 next week, bigger, better, louder and dancing!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Good god... read this: http://www.ucomics.com/nonsequitur/viewnq.cfm?uc_full_date=20020414&uc_c omic=nq&uc_daction=X And shut it. All of you. -mark -----Original Message----- From: Gaiatekztur214@aol.com [mailto:Gaiatekztur214@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:49 AM To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] idm girls/musical aesthetics and other pretentious stuffs jesus mary and freeking joseph! this list is getting less "intelligent" by the minute..can't it simply be "EDM-EXPERIMENTAL DANCE MUSIC"... you are obviously an unintelligent bloke saying woment should know their roles in bed...im a single guy dating 3 girls and yes this may be somewhat underhanded of me but i am in no way expecting any of these girls to know exactly what i like in bed...one of them is VERY inexperienced and another is very experienced and the third one i haven't had the oppurtunity to bring back home...but whatever, women are amazing, women are great, if the girls/women on here want their own list, let them decide, i don't think its up to the pretentious males on here to do so... oh yeah, off topic (what is on-topic these days from me??), but could some1 please repost that party announcement for that gig @ the hammerstein ballroom w/ 2lone swordsman, bolz bolz, dj olive etc??? just wondering who the support is gonna be, thanks 1 matt --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 10:22 PM 4/24/2002 -0700, you wrote:

quoted 5 lines Good god... read this:

>Good god... read this: >http://www.ucomics.com/nonsequitur/viewnq.cfm?uc_full_date=20020414&uc_c >omic=nq&uc_daction=X > >And shut it. All of you.

it's very fitting that the character in that particular strip has an iBook, eh? :D derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org