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Re: [idm] Michael Moore letter

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◇ merged from 3 subjects: ... · ... / political discussion / · michael moore letter
2001-09-13 13:54mark murphy [idm] ...
├─ 2001-09-13 14:11Adam Piontek Re: [idm] ... / political discussion /
└─ 2001-09-13 18:35Jeff/Ninja Tune [idm] Michael Moore letter
├─ 2001-09-13 16:36wells Re: [idm] Michael Moore letter
├─ 2001-09-13 20:15Pete Edwards Re: [idm] Michael Moore letter
└─ 2001-09-13 20:28Pete Edwards Re: [idm] Michael Moore letter
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2001-09-13 13:54mark murphyJason Williams" <orcalounger@hotmail.com> writes: >The US is the freest country in the wor
From:
mark murphy
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Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:54:48
Subject:
[idm] ...
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Jason Williams" <orcalounger@hotmail.com> writes:
quoted 2 lines The US is the freest country in the world, and being one of the more>The US is the freest country in the world, and being one of the more >democratic ones, over time, it will only get better.
That is simply not true. The Netherlands is far more liberal than the US and Western freedom on a whole is exaggerated, as long as there are unnecessary laws and censorship you are not entirely free. And now to preserve this "freedom" you will no doubt see an increase in CCTV and other security measures! Democracy is also an illusion, a dictionary definition of democracy reveals: 1. Government by the people Well, let me say that "the people" have very little say in what goes on in the western countries, the decisions typically aren't even made by those we elected but by those behind the scenes. Therefore voting at elections is typically trivial/futile.
quoted 3 lines More and more people will live freer lives with higher standards of living,>More and more people will live freer lives with higher standards of living, >and I truly see america as bringing certain idealistic visions of utopia to >the masses in a workable way.
As long as capitalism is in force you will see the opposite of that happening.
quoted 2 lines Yes, we have some faults and some problems and some shady dealings going on>Yes, we have some faults and some problems and some shady dealings going on >behind the scenes.
No, not some but lots.
quoted 2 lines the US has what amounts to the closest thing to the ideal way of bringing>the US has what amounts to the closest thing to the ideal way of bringing >happiness to the most number of people right now.
I don't think thats entirely true, ask all those who have unnecessarily lost their job while their employers are making record profits.
quoted 2 lines we are now justified to completely destroy them and remove any threat that>we are now justified to completely destroy them and remove any threat that >they would be able to do this again.
Tsk...tsk...tsk, shame on you, its attitudes like that...
quoted 2 lines I feel that any people out there that hate America, and want to hurt us,>I feel that any people out there that hate America, and want to hurt us, >should be destroyed before they get a chance.
...
quoted 3 lines Thus, by the law of nature, we need to take advantage of our superiority to>Thus, by the law of nature, we need to take advantage of our superiority to >wipe them out and remove any possibility of them getting better at >attacking us.
Thus by the law of nature we should all still be swinging in the trees! Human beings seem to be the only species on this planet who, when pissed off by other members of their species feel the need to obliterate them, any other species is concerned with the survival of its respected species, sure animals will fight to establish territory or to gain a mate but they do not fight to the death.
quoted 2 lines Also, I feel this event should become the perfect example of what religous>Also, I feel this event should become the perfect example of what religous >fundamentalism leads to.
religious fundamentalism has little to do with the recent events, any nation/group(regardless of religion) who is pissed off with the US could have taken similar action
quoted 1 line End religous intolerance NOW before it destroys all of humanity.>End religous intolerance NOW before it destroys all of humanity.
With these attitudes you will be the one to destroy all of humanity
quoted 2 lines I am more pissed off at the muslims for their oppression of millions of>I am more pissed off at the muslims for their oppression of millions of >women worldwide than for the attacks that happened yesturday.
Do not confuse "islam" with "taliban"
quoted 1 line Just my opinion.>Just my opinion.
Well, if Mr.Bush has similar opinions we are in for some horrible times ahead Bear in mind that Whoever did this did not do it because they are evil, they did it for a reason that they obviously felt very strongly about. The wtc was probably targeted because to to some it symbolises greed and we in the west are very greedy indeed. And In thse troubled times you should not let emotions get the better of facts. ciao, cheesemonster --- the United States has more nuclear weapons than the rest of the world put together. It refuses to comply with international arms treaties, or allow its arms programmes to be inspected by international observers. In 1998 and 1999 the US bombed four countries, Serbia, Sudan, Afghanistan and Iraq, breaking international law each time. The United States is still the only nation to have used its nuclear weapons in a war. - John Pilger _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-09-13 14:11Adam PiontekRegardless of whether or not democracy is good or bad, whether freedom is real or only per
From:
Adam Piontek
To:
Date:
Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:11:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] ... / political discussion /
Reply to:
[idm] ...
permalink · <20010913141132.33579.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com>
Regardless of whether or not democracy is good or bad, whether freedom is real or only perceived, I still enjoy Autechre, and in most of the "western" world, no one is about to kill me because they don't like the farts and clicks coming from my headphones or speakers. There has been no more and no less discussion than I expected on this list after such an attack. Nice to know that, if you get any group of people together, their behavior will be pretty much predictable. I didn't really participate because I didn't feel I could really add anything relevant or worthwhile. If anyone is interested, I made an entry to my otherwise sparse weblog on Tuesday, hours after the event, and I find that now, after much thought, discussion, and news-watching, I still agree with what I wrote: http://www.damek.org/ I will be going to Record Camp tonight, despite its being another congregation of human beings, and despite my not being a regular visitor of them in the past. Come have a drink with all of us. Too bad they don't serve mead, though - it's much better than beer! -Adam PS - Harry Potter on Nov. 16th! __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-09-13 18:35Jeff/Ninja TuneA letter from my favorite American, Michael Moore Dear friends, I was supposed to fly toda
From:
Jeff/Ninja Tune
To:
Date:
Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:35:01 -0500
Subject:
[idm] Michael Moore letter
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[idm] ...
permalink · <B7C6659E.9F6E%jeff@ninjatune.net>
A letter from my favorite American, Michael Moore Dear friends, I was supposed to fly today on the 4:30 PM American Airlines flight from LAX to JFK. But tonight I find myself stuck in L.A. with an incredible range of emotions over what has happened on the island where I work and live in New York City. My wife and I spent the first hours of the day -- after being awakened by phone calls from our parents at 6:40am PT -- trying to contact our daughter at school in New York and our friend JoAnn who works near the World Trade Center. I called JoAnn at her office. As someone picked up, the first tower imploded, and the person answering the phone screamed and ran out, leaving me no clue as to whether or not she or JoAnn would live. It was a sick, horrible, frightening day. On December 27, 1985 I found myself caught in the middle of a terrorist incident at the Vienna airport -- which left 30 people dead, both there and at the Rome airport. (The machine-gunning of passengers in each city was timed to occur at the same moment.) I do not feel like discussing that event tonight because it still brings up too much despair and confusion as to how and why I got to live. a fluke, a mistake, a few feet on the tarmac, and I am still here, there but for the grace of. Safe. Secure. I'm an American, living in America. I like my illusions. I walk through a metal detector, I put my carry-ons through an x-ray machine, and I know all will be well. Here's a short list of my experiences lately with airport security: * At the Newark Airport, the plane is late at boarding everyone. The counter can't find my seat. So I am told to just "go ahead and get on" -- without a ticket! * At Detroit Metro Airport, I don't want to put the lunch I just bought at the deli through the x-ray machine so, as I pass through the metal detector, I hand the sack to the guard through the space between the detector and the x-ray machine. I tell him "It's just a sandwich." He believes me and doesn't bother to check. The sack has gone through neither security device. * At LaGuardia in New York, I check a piece of luggage, but decide to catch a later plane. The first plane leaves without me, but with my bag -- no one knowing what is in it. * Back in Detroit, I take my time getting off the commuter plane. By the time I have come down its stairs, the bus that takes the passengers to the terminal has left -- without me. I am alone on the tarmac, free to wander wherever I want. So I do. Eventually, I flag down a pick-up truck and an airplane mechanic gives me a ride the rest of the way to the terminal. * I have brought knives, razors; and once, my traveling companion brought a hammer and chisel. No one stopped us. Of course, I have gotten away with all of this because the airlines consider my safety SO important, they pay rent-a-cops $5.75 an hour to make sure the bad guys don't get on my plane. That is what my life is worth -- less than the cost of an oil change. Too harsh, you say? Well, chew on this: a first-year pilot on American Eagle (the commuter arm of American Airlines) receives around $15,000a year in annual pay. That's right -- $15,000 for the person who has your life in his hands. Until recently, Continental Express paid a little over $13,000 a year. There was one guy, an American Eagle pilot, who had four kids so he went down to the welfare office and applied for food stamps -- and he was eligible! Someone on welfare is flying my plane? Is this for real? Yes, it is. So spare me the talk about all the precautions the airlines and the FAA is taking. They, like all businesses, are concerned about one thing -- the bottom line and the profit margin. Four teams of 3-5 people were all able to penetrate airport securityon the same morning at 3 different airports and pull off this heinous act? My only response is -- that's all? Well, the pundits are in full diarrhea mode, gushing on about the "terrorist threat" and today's scariest dude on planet earth -- Osama bin Laden. Hey, who knows, maybe he did it. But, something just doesn't add up. Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps in a tent in a desert has been training pilots to fly our most modern, sophisticated jumbo jets with such pinpoint accuracy that they are able to hit these three targets without anyone wondering why these planes were so far off path? Or am I being asked to believe that there were four religious/political fanatics who JUST HAPPENED to be skilled airline pilots who JUST HAPPENED to want to kill themselves today? Maybe you can find one jumbo jet pilot willing to die for the cause -- but FOUR? Ok, maybe you can -- I don't know. What I do know is that all day long I have heard everything about this bin Laden guy except this one fact -- WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden! Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA! Don't take my word for it -- I saw a piece on MSNBC last year that laid it all out. When the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan, the CIA trained him and his buddies in how to commits acts of terrorism against the Soviet forces. It worked! The Soviets turned and ran. Bin Laden was grateful for what we taught him and thought it might be fun to use those same techniques against us. We abhor terrorism -- unless we're the ones doing the terrorizing. We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me. Thirty thousand murdered civilians and who the hell even remembers! We fund a lot of oppressive regimes that have killed a lot of innocent people, and we never let the human suffering THAT causes to interrupt our day one single bit. We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in Gaza, in Salvador) that I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised when those orphans grow up and are a little whacked in the head from the horrorwe have helped cause. Yet, our recent domestic terrorism bombings have not been conducted by a guy from the desert but rather by our own citizens: a couple of ex-military guys who hated the federal government. From the first minutes of today's events, I never heard that possibility suggested. Why is that? Maybe it's because the A-rabs are much better foils. A key ingredient in getting Americans whipped into a frenzy against a new enemy is the all-important race card. It's much easier to get us to hate when the object of our hatred doesn't look like us. Congressmen and Senators spent the day calling for more money for the military; one Senator on CNN even said he didn't want to hear any more talk about more money for education or health care -- we should have only one priority: our self-defense. Will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be more secure when the rest of the world isn't living in poverty so we can have nice running shoes? In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again.He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race -- you name it, and Baby Bush has blown it all. The Senators and Congressmen tonight broke out in a spontaneous version of "God Bless America." They're not a bad group of singers! Yes, God, please do bless us. Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes' destination of California -- these were places that voted AGAINST Bush! Why kill them? Why kill anyone? Such insanity. Let's mourn, let's grieve, and when it's appropriate let's examine our contribution to the unsafe world we live in. It doesn't have to be like this. Yours, Michael Moore mmflint@aol.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-09-13 16:36wellsAt 01:35 PM 9/13/2001 -0500, Jeff/Ninja Tune wrote: >A letter from my favorite American, M
From:
wells
To:
Jeff/Ninja Tune ,
Date:
Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:36:15 -0400
Subject:
Re: [idm] Michael Moore letter
Reply to:
[idm] Michael Moore letter
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At 01:35 PM 9/13/2001 -0500, Jeff/Ninja Tune wrote:
quoted 1 line A letter from my favorite American, Michael Moore>A letter from my favorite American, Michael Moore
Michael Moore is always awesome and insightful. Thanks for posting that letter. - wells oliver [wells@submute.net] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-09-13 20:15Pete Edwardslast i checked aren't these same americans bitching about lack of safety the same ones who
From:
Pete Edwards
To:
Date:
Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] Michael Moore letter
Reply to:
[idm] Michael Moore letter
permalink · <20010913201518.69469.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com>
last i checked aren't these same americans bitching about lack of safety the same ones who demand to fly for practically free? leave it to michael moore to take the holier than thou path here...maybe he'll do a piece on how he thinks nike masterminded the whole thing... fu kin a pete __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-09-13 20:28Pete Edwardsand the thing is michael moore doesn't know...it strikes me funny that he finds it impossi
From:
Pete Edwards
To:
Date:
Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:28:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] Michael Moore letter
Reply to:
[idm] Michael Moore letter
permalink · <20010913202834.84512.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com>
and the thing is michael moore doesn't know...it strikes me funny that he finds it impossible that four people would be so commited to learn how to fly a plane and then commit suicide for their cause...it's something that westerner's can't and maybe shouldn't try to understand...and there's some evidence that these guys have been learning to fly at our flight schools months ago, this is not something thrown together the morning of, some "hey i have an idea" type shit...this is much more calculated and serious, and we need to stop making smart ass comments about some "hey, we deserved it, check out my investigating reporting! welfare, food stamps, you're on saturday night live" style reporting...it's nothing, an empty fucking comment...michael moore might should shut the fuck up, watch what happens and then decide what's up and down...but right now evidence is pointing to the fact that yes "this guy who sleeps in a tent in a desert" is involved, but no, he doesn't have to teach them how to fly the jets himself...these are business men with money, who are patient and willing to do whatever it takes... and so far as hitting with pinpoint accuracy, evidence is pointing that they didn't need that...the towers themselves weren't hard to hit, and they missed the white house so instead hit the pentagon, a much larger and easier target... peace steve
quoted 19 lines Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps> Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps > in a tent in a > desert has been training pilots to fly our most > modern, sophisticated > jumbo jets with such pinpoint accuracy that they are > able to hit these > three targets > without anyone wondering why these planes were so > far off path? > > Or am I being asked to believe that there were four > religious/political > fanatics who JUST HAPPENED to be skilled airline > pilots who JUST > HAPPENED to want to kill themselves today? > > Maybe you can find one jumbo jet pilot willing to > die for the cause -- > but FOUR? Ok, maybe you can -- I don't know.
__________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org