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Re: [idm] art/music

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◇ merged from 3 subjects: art/music · understanding art · understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
2001-05-12 15:26setre . RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
└─ 2001-05-13 16:51Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
├─ 2001-05-14 03:05Lander RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
│ └─ 2001-05-14 06:46Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
│ └─ 2001-05-14 07:08Peter Schrock Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
│ └─ 2001-05-14 07:32Myroslaw Bytz RE: [idm] understanding art
│ └─ 2001-05-14 23:54Peter Schrock Re: [idm] understanding art
└─ 2001-05-14 06:35Peter Schrock Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
└─ 2001-05-14 12:20R. Lim [idm] art/music
└─ 2001-05-15 00:24Peter Schrock Re: [idm] art/music
2001-05-14 13:15Re: [idm] art/music
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2001-05-12 15:26setre .you do realize that music is art as well. and that goes for graphic design too. >From: "My
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setre .
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,
Date:
Sat, 12 May 2001 11:26:35 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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you do realize that music is art as well. and that goes for graphic design too.
quoted 11 lines From: "Myroslaw Bytz" <vzaem@humbledesign.com>>From: "Myroslaw Bytz" <vzaem@humbledesign.com> >To: "setre ." <drakt@hotmail.com>, <kromattik@aol.com>, ><dreadik@tokyo.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always >yapping about.) >Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 10:50:30 -0400 > >fuck art. let's kill. > >vzaem >against the concept of "art"
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2001-05-13 16:51Myroslaw Bytzi prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i think it has paved
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Myroslaw Bytz
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setre . ,
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Sun, 13 May 2001 12:51:51 -0400
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i think it has paved the way for people like britney spears, spice girls, etc. (goes back farther than that, but they are a direct link) to take advantage of the formula of "art" for money's sake. it's deeper than all this but i don't know if i'd want to litter the list with all that. vzaem
quoted 31 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: setre . [mailto:drakt@hotmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 11:27 AM > To: idm@hyperreal.org; vzaem@humbledesign.com > Subject: RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are > always yapping about.) > > > > you do realize that music is art as well. and that goes for > graphic design > too. > > > >From: "Myroslaw Bytz" <vzaem@humbledesign.com> > >To: "setre ." <drakt@hotmail.com>, <kromattik@aol.com>, > ><dreadik@tokyo.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org> > >Subject: RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we > are always > >yapping about.) > >Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 10:50:30 -0400 > > > >fuck art. let's kill. > > > >vzaem > >against the concept of "art" > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > >
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2001-05-14 03:05Lander--- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote: > i prefer "expression." "art" brings it
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Lander
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Sun, 13 May 2001 20:05:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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--- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote:
quoted 8 lines i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i> i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i > think it has paved the way for people like britney spears, spice girls, > etc. > (goes back farther than that, but they are a direct link) to take > advantage > of the formula of "art" for money's sake. it's deeper than all this but > i > don't know if i'd want to litter the list with all that.
Oh most respected Vzaem, I gotta disagree. How is creative expression different from art? How does calling music "art" make it elitist? How would its being elitist make Britney Spears rich? Art doesn't have formulas; science has formulas. Certain genres of art have rules to follow in order to stay within that genre, but if you're trying to write a rock song with paint on canvas your result may not be rock music but it will probably still be considered art. Come to think of it, it might end up IDM. Heh. Computers follow formulas and spit out a result, people create art. If Britney's songwriting team is simply plugging in random numbers into a songwriting equation of some sort, then they are not making art and we don't have to worry about it. But I don't see how it's possible for a human, or even a committee of humans to write a piece of music without some kind of creativity involved. Perhaps Britney Spears is just a vocal athelete of sorts making money off of the work of artists, but that don't mean it ain't art. Using B.S. and the Spice Girls as a reason not to call music art is like refusing to ever use cars because some people choose to drive them over cliffs! Zzb ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 06:46Myroslaw Bytz> --- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote: > > i prefer "expression." "art" bring
From:
Myroslaw Bytz
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Lander ,
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 02:46:00 -0400
Subject:
RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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quoted 15 lines --- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote:> --- Myroslaw Bytz <vzaem@humbledesign.com> wrote: > > i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i > > think it has paved the way for people like britney spears, spice girls, > > etc. > > (goes back farther than that, but they are a direct link) to take > > advantage > > of the formula of "art" for money's sake. it's deeper than all this but > > i > > don't know if i'd want to litter the list with all that. > > Oh most respected Vzaem, > > I gotta disagree. How is creative expression different from art? How > does calling music "art" make it elitist? How would its being elitist > make Britney Spears rich?
art is a term differentiating expression from itself. calling music art does not "make it" anything. art by definition is elitist, since it does separate itself from mere expression. as in, i could paint a picture and make thousands of dollars for it, but would anyone really pay me to stand in their house and express myself by talking all day? probably not. fact is, there are forms of expression that are generally recognized as being "better" in some way than others. these forms don't have much of a basis for being "better," other than the fact that people think and have thought they are so. now to the getting rich question. britney spears is doing nothing new. others before her have gotten rich because they did they same thing. wear a bunch of makeup, allude to sex a whole lot, wear skimpy clothes, talk about boys and make sure you have an attitude. if you were driven, you too could make as much money as she does or n'sync does by being a clone of them, and of backstreet boys, new kids on the block, aaron carter, et cetera. it happens time and time again. now that in itself isn't all *that* bad. but the problem comes when people have been taught to worship "art" as giving some sort of inner experience or realization about themselves, which our society and most others do. the spice girls are not about singing from an inner need to; if there were no money in it for them, they would never have gotten into it. but there is, because all the disenchanted people need them to look to for guidance, and are willing to pay for it. the dilemma comes when you look at the things these people are saying. i doubt it gives any positive inner guidance to anyone, when britney spears says, oops i played with your heart. that's why i don't think artists should be paid more than it costs to produce the art.
quoted 4 lines Art doesn't have formulas; science has formulas. Certain genres of art> Art doesn't have formulas; science has formulas. Certain genres of art > have rules to follow in order to stay within that genre, but if you're > trying to write a rock song with paint on canvas your result may not be > rock music but it will probably still be considered art.
this is true.
quoted 2 lines Come to think of> Come to think of > it, it might end up IDM. Heh.
:)
quoted 10 lines Computers follow formulas and spit out a result, people create art. If> Computers follow formulas and spit out a result, people create art. If > Britney's songwriting team is simply plugging in random numbers into a > songwriting equation of some sort, then they are not making art and we > don't have to worry about it. But I don't see how it's possible for a > human, or even a committee of humans to write a piece of music without > some kind of creativity involved. Perhaps Britney Spears is just a vocal > athelete of sorts making money off of the work of artists, but that don't > mean it ain't art. Using B.S. and the Spice Girls as a reason not to call > music art is like refusing to ever use cars because some people choose to > drive them over cliffs!
it's nothing like that. listen, i just disagree with the separation of art and expression. i think that the concept of art, perhaps moreso than any other factor, makes the population disenchanted and lost, with only a slew of misleading symbols to guide them. it's like a religious parable with no point, no moral. vzaem
quoted 10 lines __________________________________________________> __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2001-05-14 07:08Peter Schrockon 5/13/01 11:46 PM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote: > but the problem come
From:
Peter Schrock
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anyone and everyone and
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 00:08:10 -0700
Subject:
Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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on 5/13/01 11:46 PM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote:
quoted 3 lines but the problem comes when people have been taught to> but the problem comes when people have been taught to > worship "art" as giving some sort of inner experience or realization about > themselves, which our society and most others do.
Sometimes that is what art does to people, but I agree, it isn't based on the inner experience of those who experience someones art. it is all art cause it is all expression.
quoted 3 lines the spice girls are not> the spice girls are not > about singing from an inner need to; if there were no money in it for them, > they would never have gotten into it.
Are you sure about this, i mean, just as clueless some of these people might be about the reason for doing music, some of them actually do it cause they like music. Some of them got recognized for their desire to sing, I doubt they actually "looked" at someone and said, "who cares if they can't sing, we will make them a star". There had to have been something that triggered them to desire their ability, whether we think it is good or bad. I mean, yeah they are doing it for the wrong reasons, but who wouldn't love to get paid to sit in their home and all day do what they love to do most. I wouldn't have to be working my job, rather, spend all my time writting new music all day, and then get paid for it. Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.
quoted 5 lines but there is, because all the> but there is, because all the > disenchanted people need them to look to for guidance, and are willing to > pay for it. the dilemma comes when you look at the things these people are > saying. i doubt it gives any positive inner guidance to anyone, when > britney spears says, oops i played with your heart.
sad to say, but some people i know are dillusional enough to believe that there is a message that speaks to them. maybe not to you specifically, or to me for that matter, but i know people who say it actually speaks to them in ways i do not understand.
quoted 2 lines that's why i don't> that's why i don't > think artists should be paid more than it costs to produce the art.
this is true. but how do you pay for the time invested in it? someone had to write the stuff, good or bad! Peter "Pachinko" Ý - http://www.mp3.com/pachinko - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 07:32Myroslaw Bytzthat someone, provided he/she had an inner need to express it, would find the time anyway.
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Myroslaw Bytz
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Peter Schrock , anyone and everyone and
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 03:32:14 -0400
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RE: [idm] understanding art
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Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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that someone, provided he/she had an inner need to express it, would find the time anyway. i worked three jobs at one point in my life, and still had the strength and will to create music. if there is no "i'm too tired to express myself or do what i love" then it is serving a positive purpose for you, and probably others... in other words, not having the time to invest in it should not be an issue; you find the time, by any means necessary, or wither away and/or compromise yourself. I'd love to get paid a bunch for sitting around and making music, but firstly, i think it would compromise, no matter to what degree, my freedom of expression, and secondly, it isn't necessary to my expression that money be involved, unlike some so-called artists. vzaem
quoted 19 lines that's why i don't> > that's why i don't > > think artists should be paid more than it costs to produce the art. > > > this is true. but how do you pay for the time invested in it? > someone had > to write the stuff, good or bad! > > > Peter "Pachinko" Ý > - http://www.mp3.com/pachinko - > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2001-05-14 23:54Peter Schrockon 5/14/01 12:32 AM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote: > that someone, provid
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Peter Schrock
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anyone and everyone and
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 16:54:24 -0700
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Re: [idm] understanding art
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RE: [idm] understanding art
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on 5/14/01 12:32 AM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote:
quoted 13 lines that someone, provided he/she had an inner need to express it, would find> that someone, provided he/she had an inner need to express it, would find > the time anyway. i worked three jobs at one point in my life, and still had > the strength and will to create music. if there is no "i'm too tired to > express myself or do what i love" then it is serving a positive purpose for > you, and probably others... in other words, not having the time to invest in > it should not be an issue; you find the time, by any means necessary, or > wither away and/or compromise yourself. I'd love to get paid a bunch for > sitting around and making music, but firstly, i think it would compromise, > no matter to what degree, my freedom of expression, and secondly, it isn't > necessary to my expression that money be involved, unlike some so-called > artists. > > vzaem
This is all very true, I too once had three jobs and decided I needed to compromise to one in order to make time for music. I don't mind working a job while writting music, it actually gives me a reason to write music. I just wish i could get paid so i could do more of it, if you know what mean. :-p Peter "Pachinko" Ý - http://www.mp3.com/pachinko - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 06:35Peter Schrockyeah, I find it kind of ironic when someone like britney says what she does is art, really
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Peter Schrock
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anyone and everyone and
Date:
Sun, 13 May 2001 23:35:38 -0700
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Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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RE: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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yeah, I find it kind of ironic when someone like britney says what she does is art, really it's a form of expression. but then again, isn't that what art is? an expression? I don't know, i am kind of torn on the work "art", it's seems so diluted these days. on 5/13/01 9:51 AM, Myroslaw Bytz at vzaem@humbledesign.com wrote:
quoted 7 lines i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i> i prefer "expression." "art" brings it to an elitist level, imo, and i > think it has paved the way for people like britney spears, spice girls, etc. > (goes back farther than that, but they are a direct link) to take advantage > of the formula of "art" for money's sake. it's deeper than all this but i > don't know if i'd want to litter the list with all that. > > vzaem
Peter "Pachinko" Ý - http://www.mp3.com/pachinko - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 12:20R. LimOn Sun, 13 May 2001, Peter Schrock wrote: > yeah, I find it kind of ironic when someone li
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R. Lim
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Mon, 14 May 2001 08:20:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
[idm] art/music
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Re: [idm] understanding art (and all the other crap we are always yapping about.)
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On Sun, 13 May 2001, Peter Schrock wrote:
quoted 4 lines yeah, I find it kind of ironic when someone like britney says what she does> yeah, I find it kind of ironic when someone like britney says what she does > is art, really it's a form of expression. but then again, isn't that what > art is? an expression? I don't know, i am kind of torn on the work "art", > it's seems so diluted these days.
Art, expression, whatever. I don't really follow Britney Spears' media presence all that much, but I'd be surprised if she identified with being an Artist. I imagine she sees herself as a pure entertainer (like Cex) and a humble Christian doing God's work. If all expression is art, then does this mean that that the IDM list is a museum? screw you all, -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-15 00:24Peter SchrockWell, I can honestly say that I have never heard her say it, but it was an example to get
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Peter Schrock
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anyone and everyone and
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Mon, 14 May 2001 17:24:49 -0700
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Re: [idm] art/music
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[idm] art/music
permalink · <B725C561.1487%pachinko74@mac.com>
Well, I can honestly say that I have never heard her say it, but it was an example to get the point across, I am sure more people on this list would be offended if she did say that than those on this list who wouldn't mind. I agree, she is an entertainer, just like the backstreet boys, n'sync, spice girls and all of them, but that in itself can be considered art because it is a form of expression. I can hang with her calling herself a Christian, but I find it hard to believe she believes she is doing Gods work. I mean, is she actually doing what God wants by selling herself on her videos the way she does? I don't know, just an opinion, but who am I. IDM list a museum?..., sure, why not, it is collective like a museum. on 5/14/01 5:20 AM, R. Lim at rlim@escape.com wrote:
quoted 5 lines Art, expression, whatever. I don't really follow Britney Spears' media> Art, expression, whatever. I don't really follow Britney Spears' media > presence all that much, but I'd be surprised if she identified with being > an Artist. I imagine she sees herself as a pure entertainer (like Cex) > and a humble Christian doing God's work. If all expression is art, then > does this mean that that the IDM list is a museum?
Peter "Pachinko" Ý - http://www.mp3.com/pachinko - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-05-14 13:15phlux@ix.netcom.comI see IDM more as a gallery owned by a pretenious owner who gives you learing looks as you
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Mon, 14 May 2001 09:15:26 -0400
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Re: [idm] art/music
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I see IDM more as a gallery owned by a pretenious owner who gives you learing looks as you walk in. Rob "R. Lim" <rlim@escape.com> wrote:
quoted 1 line On Sun, 13 May 2001, Peter Schrock wrote:> On Sun, 13 May 2001, Peter Schrock wrote:
quoted 4 lines yeah, I find it kind of ironic when someone like britney says what she does> yeah, I find it kind of ironic when someone like britney says what she does > is art, really it's a form of expression. but then again, isn't that what > art is? an expression? I don't know, i am kind of torn on the work "art", > it's seems so diluted these days.
Art, expression, whatever. I don't really follow Britney Spears' media presence all that much, but I'd be surprised if she identified with being an Artist. I imagine she sees herself as a pure entertainer (like Cex) and a humble Christian doing God's work. If all expression is art, then does this mean that that the IDM list is a museum? screw you all, -rob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org