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[idm] record sales and napster

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2001-02-14 11:22Hew Maxwell [idm] record sales and napster
└─ 2001-02-14 15:58Jeff/Ninja Tune Re: [idm] record sales and napster
2001-02-14 16:02John D. Re: [idm] record sales and napster
2001-02-14 18:11Jesse McCoppin RE: [idm] record sales and napster
2001-02-14 18:39EggyToast Re: [idm] record sales and napster
2001-02-14 19:21Jesse McCoppin RE: [idm] record sales and napster
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2001-02-14 11:22Hew MaxwellJust read Jeff from ninja-tune's mail. I assume there are quite a few people in here who o
From:
Hew Maxwell
To:
Date:
Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:22:12 -0000
Subject:
[idm] record sales and napster
permalink · <F1205cuF5MxdaZ7XIzi00014928@hotmail.com>
Just read Jeff from ninja-tune's mail. I assume there are quite a few people in here who own record labels/are trying to put out records. And I assume of those of us listening to 'idm' (argh, how I hate that term) most of us have access to napster. Probably significantly more so than most other genres. So I'd like to ask the record label owners this; what has happened to sales figures since napster came along? Has it affected them dramatically in any way? I for one use napster, but am probably buying the exact same amount of music as before, if not more. That goes for everyone I know as well. If anything it has made me more aware of the need to support the artists I think are great. I'm sure, as has been said so many times, it's going to fuck the majors, but will it really affect the 'underground?' I'm not saying it won't, but if it is going to - surely it would have started already? So record label owners - let us in on your sales figures. Hew _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-02-14 15:58Jeff/Ninja TuneIt goes as such... -if you're a real music fan and you're current state of living dictates
From:
Jeff/Ninja Tune
To:
Date:
Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:58:48 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] record sales and napster
Reply to:
[idm] record sales and napster
permalink · <B6B00B45.4239%jeff@ninjatune.net>
It goes as such... -if you're a real music fan and you're current state of living dictates you can spend $100/week on music, I think regardless of Napster you'll still spend that $100, but due to Napster (or other systems) you'll just have more to listen to and be able to make better choices on where that $100 is being dropped. -my worry is long term as a generation of people comes up who never had the "record shopping experience" that we would have all had. But I think by that point I think most "illegal" download sites will have been forced back underground and the majority of people will only know how to access paid sites. I liken it to the porn industry. I remember in 1995 when I first got a modem it seemed like the entire web was free porn. Try finding it now without having to spend loads of time. -and for the record, we never saw a slip in sales during the entire Napster boom but that could have been attributed to many other factors outside of Napster. It's entirely possible that we could have been selling more than we did but can't really say, and since we saw a rise in sales I can't complain about it. Like I said, didn't have a problem with the theory, just with the players. Jeff on 2/14/01 6:22 AM, Hew Maxwell at hewtwit@hotmail.com wrote:
quoted 25 lines Just read Jeff from ninja-tune's mail. I assume there are quite a few people> Just read Jeff from ninja-tune's mail. I assume there are quite a few people > in here who own record labels/are trying to put out records. And I assume of > those of us listening to 'idm' (argh, how I hate that term) most of us have > access to napster. Probably significantly more so than most other genres. So > I'd like to ask the record label owners this; what has happened to sales > figures since napster came along? Has it affected them dramatically in any > way? I for one use napster, but am probably buying the exact same amount of > music as before, if not more. That goes for everyone I know as well. If > anything it has made me more aware of the need to support the artists I > think are great. I'm sure, as has been said so many times, it's going to > fuck the majors, but will it really affect the 'underground?' I'm not > saying it won't, but if it is going to - surely it would have started > already? > > So record label owners - let us in on your sales figures. > > Hew > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2001-02-14 16:02John D.> sites. I liken it to the porn industry. I remember in 1995 when I first got > a modem it
From:
John D.
To:
Jeff/Ninja Tune ,
Date:
Thu, 15 Feb 2001 00:02:04 +0800
Subject:
Re: [idm] record sales and napster
permalink · <00c901c0969f$7ab93b20$0cb53ad2@ethome.net.tw>
quoted 1 line sites. I liken it to the porn industry. I remember in 1995 when I first> sites. I liken it to the porn industry. I remember in 1995 when I first
got
quoted 2 lines a modem it seemed like the entire web was free porn. Try finding it now> a modem it seemed like the entire web was free porn. Try finding it now > without having to spend loads of time.
No way! ha ha Oh yeah I like to listen to IDM while..., ha on topic Cheers John --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-02-14 18:11Jesse McCoppinI share a similar point of view. If a kid with a dollar per week allowance downloads a son
From:
Jesse McCoppin
To:
'Jeff/Ninja Tune' , 'IDM list'
Date:
Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:11:44 -0700
Subject:
RE: [idm] record sales and napster
permalink · <A8603901092FD31197FB00C00D00C60B0151724D@admin.bvsd.k12.co.us>
I share a similar point of view. If a kid with a dollar per week allowance downloads a song from Napster, the artist and label that song belongs to isn't losing any money, because the kid never had the funds to buy the CD in the first place. Lets say the "industry" makes a finite # of album pressings. 1) Scenario: The kid hates the song. He will delete it. RESULT: NO CD is sold, Industry neither profits nor loses $. 2) Scenario: The kid likes the song. He might save up 3 more dollars and buy the single. RESULT: 1 CD is sold, Industry profits $. 3) Scenario: The kid likes the song, but it's not availble on a single, only on the $18 LP. This kid is not going to be able to save for 18 weeks plus tax and still be able to be a normal candy-eating, video-game playing kid. No matter how good that song is, he'd never be able to afford the disc. He keeps the MP3 song. RESULT: NO CD is sold, Industry neither profits nor loses $. 4) Scenario: The kid is older now, and has a $10/week allowance. He's spent the past few years downloading music, and is really getting into listening to music. Now that he has a little more money, he just might go out and buy a CD or two! RESULT: 1 CD is sold, Industry profits $. 5) Scenario: The kid gets DSL at home, downloads music day and night, burns the MP3's to CD for archival. He doesn't need to buy CD's because they're free on Napster! RESULT: NO CD is sold, Industry neither profits not loses $, because a physical copy of the media, which is how music is sold, has not been stolen. That finite # of pressings will eventually sell, just maybe not as fast as they would with Napster. MP3 hasn't been around long enough for the world to get a clear picture of how they affect the music economy, and by terminating such a new and potentially world-changing technology in it's infancy, it may actually do more harm than good in the long run. Technologies must be allowed to grow and evolve in order to understand them. Imagine if years ago, nuclear weapon research was suddenly halted, and the half-developed technology became public knowledge (which all things eventually do anyway, due to social entropy). We'd have a serious crisis on our hands, MUCH worse than it is now. ---------------- Exactly what method of replication can warrant "piracy" ? If someone downloads an MP3, the Industry calls that piracy. What if someone else (with an exceptional memory) listens to a song on the radio, remembers it note for note, beep for beep, whatever the case may be: when that person plays back the song in his head, and enjoys humming it to himself just as much as he did hearing it on the radio, is he pirating that song? Is he costing the industry money because he didn't have to go out and buy the CD to enjoy the music? ---------------- Back to Mozart. Any money musicians made back then was given to them for a live performance. There was no such thing as recording media, so the only way they made a living was by performing. I think thats how it should still be done. Use cheap CD's to attract people to the concert. Charge a reasonable but profitable (never greedy) amount to get in, and let people enjoy the sounds. Let them enjoy the sounds after the show as they listen to the dirt-cheap CD. Trust me, they'll come back for the next tour. Thats all for now.
quoted 83 lines ----------> ---------- > From: Jeff/Ninja Tune > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 8:58 AM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] record sales and napster > > It goes as such... > > -if you're a real music fan and you're current state of living dictates > you > can spend $100/week on music, I think regardless of Napster you'll still > spend that $100, but due to Napster (or other systems) you'll just have > more > to listen to and be able to make better choices on where that $100 is > being > dropped. > -my worry is long term as a generation of people comes up who never had > the > "record shopping experience" that we would have all had. But I think by > that > point I think most "illegal" download sites will have been forced back > underground and the majority of people will only know how to access paid > sites. I liken it to the porn industry. I remember in 1995 when I first > got > a modem it seemed like the entire web was free porn. Try finding it now > without having to spend loads of time. > -and for the record, we never saw a slip in sales during the entire > Napster > boom but that could have been attributed to many other factors outside of > Napster. It's entirely possible that we could have been selling more than > we > did but can't really say, and since we saw a rise in sales I can't > complain > about it. > > Like I said, didn't have a problem with the theory, just with the players. > > Jeff > > > > on 2/14/01 6:22 AM, Hew Maxwell at hewtwit@hotmail.com wrote: > > > Just read Jeff from ninja-tune's mail. I assume there are quite a few > people > > in here who own record labels/are trying to put out records. And I > assume of > > those of us listening to 'idm' (argh, how I hate that term) most of us > have > > access to napster. Probably significantly more so than most other > genres. So > > I'd like to ask the record label owners this; what has happened to sales > > figures since napster came along? Has it affected them dramatically in > any > > way? I for one use napster, but am probably buying the exact same amount > of > > music as before, if not more. That goes for everyone I know as well. If > > anything it has made me more aware of the need to support the artists I > > think are great. I'm sure, as has been said so many times, it's going to > > fuck the majors, but will it really affect the 'underground?' I'm not > > saying it won't, but if it is going to - surely it would have started > > already? > > > > So record label owners - let us in on your sales figures. > > > > Hew > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2001-02-14 18:39EggyToast> Back to Mozart. Any money musicians made back then was given to them for a > live perfor
From:
EggyToast
To:
Jesse McCoppin , 'Jeff/Ninja Tune' , 'IDM list'
Date:
Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:39:07 CST
Subject:
Re: [idm] record sales and napster
permalink · <200102141839.MAA18483@www4.mail.umn.edu>
quoted 1 line Back to Mozart. Any money musicians made back then was given to them for> Back to Mozart. Any money musicians made back then was given to them for
a
quoted 1 line live performance. There was no such thing as recording media, so the> live performance. There was no such thing as recording media, so the
only
quoted 1 line way they made a living was by performing. I think thats how it should> way they made a living was by performing. I think thats how it should
still
quoted 3 lines be done. Use cheap CD's to attract people to the concert. Charge a> be done. Use cheap CD's to attract people to the concert. Charge a > reasonable but profitable (never greedy) amount to get in, and let people > enjoy the sounds. Let them enjoy the sounds after the show as they
listen
quoted 2 lines to the dirt-cheap CD. Trust me, they'll come back for the next tour.> to the dirt-cheap CD. Trust me, they'll come back for the next tour. >
well, yes, they would, although being able to tour would be a near impossibility, since touring is definitely not cheap. Plus, most live shows (especially small-name shows) don't make much money. It's usually to promote a cd or similar. I don't mean to sound "anti", but it's sort of backwards. I'm sure a lot of people would like to be able to perform live, but don't have the connections or the money to do it. Plus, a *lot* of people, especially in the idm-genre, can't perform live, since much of it involves bouncing tracks, recording and re-recording, etc. Sure, we could just be like aphex twin and play our recorded tracks with a little tweaking, but that's hardly a performance. i know the live show thread is probably older than the napster thread, but it really doesn't fit with music. Mostly, you don't go *see* a performance to *hear* exclusively, but to do both. You go to see music (despite the sensory paradox), and groups playing instruments badly while running around on stage hitting this is probably more entertaining to the masses than a guy sitting on stage, even if he's doing some light show or something. But this is all theoretical anyways, since people don't play live to make money - they release cd's, since they're an actual product. I think your idea would be an interesting situation, but it would probably have the same repercussions. Imagine that we all go see shows live, and the CD is sort of the "extra thing" to promote performances. Well, i'm sure people, thinking much like you are now, would say "well, back before this, people would sell cd's to make music. that way, they'd have to have a product ready to sell, instead of simply booking a performance. It's much better, because the music can reach a much larger audience and the artist can essentially be in multiple places at once." so it goes both ways :) cheers, /derek --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2001-02-14 19:21Jesse McCoppinvery good point. The underlying thing here is, SOMETHING has to give. There is a battle be
From:
Jesse McCoppin
To:
'EggyToast' , 'IDM list'
Date:
Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:21:13 -0700
Subject:
RE: [idm] record sales and napster
permalink · <A8603901092FD31197FB00C00D00C60B01517251@admin.bvsd.k12.co.us>
very good point. The underlying thing here is, SOMETHING has to give. There is a battle between labels/artists/industry vs. the Consumers. The Producers can fight the Consumers all they want, but the battle will never end unless a compromise is found. Let the RIAA, Metallica, etc. sue Napster and the rest of the Consumers.....when will they realize the consumers are the ones with the $$ to spend? Throughout time, governments have been overthrown because the people they're governing don't like the way they're doing it. Consumers use MP3 because they don't like the way the Producers are running things. The Napster lawsuit is frivelous in the big picture. They are doing it to stop MP3 trading. What they fail to realize is, to REALLY stop MP3 trading, they'd either need to: A) Shut down the Internet entirely, force all manufacturers to discontinue CD-Recorders and CD-R media, break into people's homes and erase their MP3 files from hard drives, JAZ drives, CD-R, DVD-RAM, X-Drives and other storage media, make MP3 encoding software illegal (which would go underground anyway), stop people from driving to a friend's house with a load of MP3, check every person's mail on a daily basis for "contraband", the list goes on and on. B) Stop making records, tapes, vinyl, etc. all together C) Stop being stubborn, look at what the Consumers want, and embrace MP3 and internet technology, making it work FOR the Producer instead of against. Two of these things are going to enrage the Consumers. One will not. MP3 and file sharing, via physical media, internet or otherwise, is a natural progression in Human technologies. It's inevitable, and irreversible. We can all just go with the flow, or get trampled in the stampede.
quoted 62 lines ----------> ---------- > From: EggyToast > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 11:39 AM > To: Jesse McCoppin; 'Jeff/Ninja Tune'; 'IDM list' > Subject: Re: [idm] record sales and napster > > > > Back to Mozart. Any money musicians made back then was given to them > for > a > > live performance. There was no such thing as recording media, so the > only > > way they made a living was by performing. I think thats how it should > still > > be done. Use cheap CD's to attract people to the concert. Charge a > > reasonable but profitable (never greedy) amount to get in, and let > people > > enjoy the sounds. Let them enjoy the sounds after the show as they > listen > > to the dirt-cheap CD. Trust me, they'll come back for the next tour. > > > > well, yes, they would, although being able to tour would be a near > impossibility, since touring is definitely not cheap. Plus, most live > shows (especially small-name shows) don't make much money. It's usually > to > promote a cd or similar. I don't mean to sound "anti", but it's sort of > backwards. I'm sure a lot of people would like to be able to perform > live, > but don't have the connections or the money to do it. Plus, a *lot* of > people, especially in the idm-genre, can't perform live, since much of it > involves bouncing tracks, recording and re-recording, etc. Sure, we could > just be like aphex twin and play our recorded tracks with a little > tweaking, but that's hardly a performance. > > i know the live show thread is probably older than the napster thread, but > it really doesn't fit with music. Mostly, you don't go *see* a > performance > to *hear* exclusively, but to do both. You go to see music (despite the > sensory paradox), and groups playing instruments badly while running > around > on stage hitting this is probably more entertaining to the masses than a > guy sitting on stage, even if he's doing some light show or something. > > But this is all theoretical anyways, since people don't play live to make > money - they release cd's, since they're an actual product. I think your > idea would be an interesting situation, but it would probably have the > same > repercussions. Imagine that we all go see shows live, and the CD is sort > of the "extra thing" to promote performances. Well, i'm sure people, > thinking much like you are now, would say "well, back before this, people > would sell cd's to make music. that way, they'd have to have a product > ready to sell, instead of simply booking a performance. It's much better, > because the music can reach a much larger audience and the artist can > essentially be in multiple places at once." > > so it goes both ways :) > > cheers, > /derek > >
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