IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 7 lines From: Nate <nate@toshoklabs.com>

>From: Nate <nate@toshoklabs.com> > > a couple of things in support Atomly's point: > >1. A *lot* of laptop performances are not fake. A G3 with a MIDI fader >box >(like the peavey) will do wonders for on the fly knob twiddling. >Can >anyone say Pluggo's MIDI to modulation?Fun fun fun!

I would guess that there are way more people using their laptop to create "fake" live sets, then people that are trying to be "live".

quoted 4 lines 2. To tell you the truth, and I could be totally alone on this, is >that I

>2. To tell you the truth, and I could be totally alone on this, is >that I >don't really care if the set is presequenced. A lot of the >music we all >love (Funkstroung and Ae are but 2 of many) is the result >of laborious and >anal studio editing.

Then maybe some artists shouldn't try to do live period. Some people have gotten upset in the past about people just playing DATs, well the way the laptop is often used it isn't much different.

quoted 3 lines Improvised stuff is cool, and any person who can carry a vibe for 1+

>Improvised stuff is cool, and any person who can carry a vibe for 1+ >hours this way gets props but it runs the risk of turning into > >directionless noodling.

I know many people that can easily to a 1+ hour live set and keep the vibe.

quoted 4 lines I have seen Ae play, they were pretty wicked, but the stuff was >nowhere

>I have seen Ae play, they were pretty wicked, but the stuff was >nowhere >near as dialed as they usually are (for reasons stated above). >And I have >heard enough bootleg live Ae stuff to think the time I saw >them was not a >fluke.

I've seen them before and I enjoyed it.

quoted 2 lines I saw Jake Mandell a couple weeks back and being a big fan I was >dismayed

>I saw Jake Mandell a couple weeks back and being a big fan I was >dismayed >to hear what I considered a meandering an ultimatley boring >set.

That's exactly what I would have expected from him. I never been that impressed with any of his releases.

quoted 4 lines I have also seen Richard Devine play a few times and I couldn't tell >if it

>I have also seen Richard Devine play a few times and I couldn't tell >if it >was premade or on the fly. I suspect somewhere in the middle. >But is was >really gnarly. Total aggressive dancefloor abstractions. He >had the place >rocking.

I've seen him twice and he rocked.

quoted 5 lines I mean sure one should give the artist some leaway (sp) in this >regard,

>I mean sure one should give the artist some leaway (sp) in this >regard, >and I don't mean to discount anyone's efforts no matter what >process they >choose, but who's kidding who, no matter what 'serious >face' they are >pulling off we know there is the potential for it to be >purely pre-made. And I don't mind.

I would rather see someone play on their Pocket Calculator then click a mouse. At least that way you know they played it.

quoted 2 lines I think we have to get rid of this whole rocknroll paradigm of >standing in

>I think we have to get rid of this whole rocknroll paradigm of >standing in >front of the stage staring at someone altogether...

Perhaps the laptoppers shouldn't play out in front of people, and just pump their "live sets" on the net. That's more idm anyways isn't it. Here's the formula for many of the idm shows I have seen. IDM shows = weak sound + no visual appeal + often non-live sets + plus little to no women. The whole rocknroll paradigm doesn't seem to bad now that I think of it. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 8 lines From: Kent williams <kent@avalon.net>

>From: Kent williams <kent@avalon.net> > >All right it's that time of the month, I'm going to be a bitch. > >Electronic music challenges the performer in ways that traditional > >performance does not. Since the music is created outside of real time > >(sometimes WAY outside of real time -- like when I tweak the same 1 >bar >loop for two hours), it is a challenge to really make it a >performance.

If the "performer" is using a laptop their workload has probably been simplyfied a great deal. It's not like they are playing really fast drums or traditional instruments...they are in many cases just clicking a mouse. As far as performance...it is often nonexistant. Watching someone click a mouse is not a performance.

quoted 2 lines Just pushing 'play' on a laptop doesn't constitute a live performance,

>Just pushing 'play' on a laptop doesn't constitute a live performance, >granted.

Of course, and I'm sure most of us have seen many shows where that is all the artists does.

quoted 3 lines But it sounds like what people are asking for is the kind of spectacle

>But it sounds like what people are asking for is the kind of spectacle > >created by rock bands. If you want that, maybe Nelson will attempt a > >comeback and make you happy.

Now we know where your pre-idm tastes...eeew. You guys can keep attacking rock or rock pardigm. etc, There has been a long tradition of live music before rock. Such as classical. I certainly wouldn't want to go to a theatrical play and instead of seeing actors on stage, they just push a remote control and you see a pre-recorded image. Like every actor in the play had their own tv screen dedicated to their character. Conceptually that might be entertaining to see once, but not routinely.

quoted 2 lines But is there is something inherently valid about prancing around

>But is there is something inherently valid about prancing around >like a drunken weasel playing a 3 note bassline?

It would be more interesting seeing the artist pour concrete and shaping on the floor than clicking a mere button every once in a while.

quoted 7 lines It is possible to be very spontaneous with a laptop. Vladislav Delay's

>It is possible to be very spontaneous with a laptop. Vladislav Delay's >set was done with Reaktor, and it is very much live. Kit Clayton live >is very live. Stewart Walker live is very live. >Rich Devine (when I saw him) was playing digital audio straight out of >cubase, but he was tweaking it live with effects and an access virus. >I thought it was way cool because it was cool music. People dug it. >But if someone wants to come in and push play, judge it on it's merits.

The setting & sound could or drunken fools could add to it

quoted 2 lines If they were up all night the night before lashing a new track >together,

>If they were up all night the night before lashing a new track >together, >and no one except the artist has heard it before, isn't that >something?

New tunes are worth hearing.

quoted 1 line And if you're not a musician, how do you know what they're actually >doing?

>And if you're not a musician, how do you know what they're actually >doing?

You don't have to be a musician to be knowledgeable about how to make music. When you have a few friends that make tunes and read articles in music zine...it's not to hard.

quoted 8 lines Let me tell you a story -- about a year ago, I played live -- I had 3 or

>Let me tell you a story -- about a year ago, I played live -- I had 3 or >4 tracks that were really live -- i was playing a keyboard, and programming >a drum machine in live mode. But I also had tracks to cover setting up >for a new song on CD, and some tracks on an Akai S20 sampler that were >just 'push play' tracks. But I did have a lot of funky looking gear on >stage. After I played people said they liked the set, but a lot >of people seemed to be impressed with the gear. They didn't know what I >did with it, if anything.

Fascinating story...you've changed my mind. Click away on your little mouse, i'll never doubt anyone ever again. If someone comes on stage with a just a stapler and a microphone...I'll be excited

quoted 4 lines Gear for gear for it's own sake is about as creative as the front >window

>Gear for gear for it's own sake is about as creative as the front >window >of a music store. I was getting props basically for my ability >to hump >stuff up the back stairs and plug it in, as much for the music >I actually >played.

I suppose store fronts are more interesting than clicking a mouse. What are electronic artists so oppose to something visual?

quoted 1 line Which is to say that the showbiz stuff is bullshit.

>Which is to say that the showbiz stuff is bullshit.

So is paying to watch some push a button every few minutes.

quoted 2 lines Aphex Twin got a lot of mileage out of smelly teddy bear suits. I've

>Aphex Twin got a lot of mileage out of smelly teddy bear suits. I've > >thought of hiring a clown to make balloon animals during my sets.

Might be a good idea.

quoted 3 lines Given my ridiculous stage name, maybe I should get a chair from the

>Given my ridiculous stage name, maybe I should get a chair from the > >Goodwill and smash it up on stage. The point, I guess, no matter WHAT > >you do it's at least as valid as playing records.

You obviously have not seen any really good djs. Typically, I hear more sounds and variation when I see a good dj. Some artist's use the same sounds in all of their tunes. So I guess that's another reason to choose a dj or a mouse expert.

quoted 1 line And everyone knows it's the DJs that get all the booty.

>And everyone knows it's the DJs that get all the booty.

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At 07:11 PM 9/13/2000 -0700, Ron Jeremy wrote:

quoted 6 lines If the "performer" is using a laptop their workload has probably been

>If the "performer" is using a laptop their workload has probably been >simplyfied a great deal. It's not like they are playing really fast drums >or traditional instruments...they are in many cases just clicking a mouse. > >As far as performance...it is often nonexistant. Watching someone click a >mouse is not a performance.

This isn't just a response specifically to this or Mr. Jeremy, but the one thing I've been thinking the whole time I've read this thread. Generally people are comparing IDM shows to rock shows. Watching some guy click a mouse isn't exciting. Watching someone like Lexaunculpt isn't riveting, but I find watching four guys plucking strings and hitting drums to be just as boring. Watching musicians grimace and lean into the microphone and spin in circles while playing guitars isn't even remotely entertaining to me. Musicians aren't more exciting when they jump up and down or wave their hands. Seriously, I'm really not being glib when I say that most IDM shows should turn the lights up a little, provide more tables to sit at, and let people sit down and read or talk quietly in the back while they listen. Some music demands and rewards attentive listening, but most of it is froofy melodies and tricky little chiastic beats. There's not enough there to just stand and listen for hours on end. If there were screens to look at, or I had a book to read, I would be more ready to sit through every performance. Standing there in the dark with my arms crossed staring at some laptop, or standing by a speaker dancing by myself (since dancing seems to be forbidden at hip idm shows) both get boring quickly. As much as we're all expected to hate and scorn raves on this list, I've always found more to do at parties with a big space, room to walk around, a crowd that is actually reacting overtly to music, playstations hooked up, and whatever else promoters do to be nifty. If I could go raving and hear interesting music (and there's plenty of stuff like Cylob that is simultaneously pocket pen protector-friendly and funky and danceable) that would make me pretty happy. The rock show format is boring. I don't want to spend $9 for a little tiny drink, and I don't want to stand around amidst a bunch of Hollywood hipsters trying hard to look bored. I dunno what shows are like in the rest of the world, but there must be some happy medium.

quoted 3 lines Now we know where your pre-idm tastes...eeew.

>Now we know where your pre-idm tastes...eeew. >You guys can keep attacking rock or rock pardigm. etc, >There has been a long tradition of live music before rock. Such as classical.

I want to see a laptop orchestra. That would be hott. If there were no beats, or maybe everyone were synched to the same midi tempo controller ... would that be doable? Ten guys with laptops, each tweaking their software synths and patterns. Hmm. It could be very cool for improv-microsound music (which is a currently running topic on that list), and maybe give things a more spontaneous feel than just one person arranging the sound.

quoted 4 lines You obviously have not seen any really good djs. Typically, I hear more

>You obviously have not seen any really good djs. Typically, I hear more >sounds and variation when I see a good dj. Some artist's use the same >sounds in all of their tunes. So I guess that's another reason to choose >a dj or a mouse expert.

Some DJs use the same sounds in all their tunes, for years on end. DJs are glorified jukeboxes. They play prerecorded material for people to dance to. But when you have people who hit 'play' on the laptop and we go to see them for purposes of hearing the new tunes (most of the reason I go to shows), I guess you could argue it's not really any different from seeing whatever big name junglist for the sake of dubplate fetishism. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

well this has been replied to already, but i'm going to offer a different viewpoint. hello kent! we've never met ;)

quoted 4 lines Electronic music challenges the performer in ways that traditional performance

>Electronic music challenges the performer in ways that traditional performance >does not. Since the music is created outside of real time (sometimes >WAY outside of real time -- like when I tweak the same 1 bar loop for two >hours), it is a challenge to really make it a performance.

true, although i would say there are two things to play during a show - totally new tracks, or tracks that people are familiar with. it's usually a mix of these (literally, heh heh). and hey, i'm sure some people set up a bar loop and just tweak it to death for 2 hours live. although unless you're into that it wouldn't work too well ;)

quoted 2 lines Just pushing 'play' on a laptop doesn't constitute a live performance,

>Just pushing 'play' on a laptop doesn't constitute a live performance, >granted.

why not? does live mean being there in person, or creating all the sounds on the spot? if the person has to hit "play" to create music on his laptop/instrument, then he's performing. what about guitarists who set up long feedback loops by hitting one string and having the soundguy sustain it for 5 minutes?

quoted 5 lines But it sounds like what people are asking for is the kind of spectacle created

>But it sounds like what people are asking for is the kind of spectacle created >by rock bands. If you want that, maybe Nelson will attempt a comeback and >make >you happy. But is there is something inherently valid about prancing around >like a drunken weasel playing a 3 note bassline?

well, yeah, it's really funny.

quoted 2 lines I don't think so. And some of the most riveting performances I've seen,

>I don't think so. And some of the most riveting performances I've seen, >like the Philip Glass Ensemble, were very static on stage.

very true, and brings into play another aspect of this argument - how the musician/performer and the audience interpret the event. the performer could see this as a very solemn event, and acts accordingly. ideally, they'll have some mood lighting (either spotlighting or other backlighting), and the audience will be there to hear music.

quoted 3 lines It is possible to be very spontaneous with a laptop. Vladislav Delay's

>It is possible to be very spontaneous with a laptop. Vladislav Delay's >set was done with Reaktor, and it is very much live. Kit Clayton live >is very live. Stewart Walker live is very live.

these are the artists instruments, and they're playing them on stage. it's not their fault that they're new ideas and new instruments and a very different way of creating music.

quoted 3 lines Rich Devine (when I saw him) was playing digital audio straight out of

>Rich Devine (when I saw him) was playing digital audio straight out of >cubase, but he was tweaking it live with effects and an access virus. >I thought it was way cool because it was cool music. People dug it.

from what i've heard (both from gossip and from his studio tracks), his music is very involving, and usually very danceable, although weird. if you can get everyone focused on something other than yourself, then it doesn't matter what you do. although it doesn't matter what you do even if everyone is watching you.

quoted 3 lines But if someone wants to come in and push play, judge it on it's merits.

>But if someone wants to come in and push play, judge it on it's merits. >If they were up all night the night before lashing a new track together, >and no one except the artist has heard it before, isn't that something?

very much so. if i were to perform live, i'd make sure to look into the audience with these big demonic grins and hope to scare someone ;)

quoted 3 lines And if you're not a musician, how do you know what they're actually doing?

>And if you're not a musician, how do you know what they're actually doing? >You want grand gestures, and there may not be any associated with what >a person is doing musically.

this is exactly the differences in perspective on whether a performance is "good" or "non-existent" etc. who's to say whether leaning over and grabbing a glass of water, turning towards the audience, taking a sip whilst some crazy tunes blast out, and turning back to your equipment isn't a performance? maybe that's part of the act, eh? maybe the performer is performing by not moving..?

quoted 3 lines Gear for gear for it's own sake is about as creative as the front window

>Gear for gear for it's own sake is about as creative as the front window >of a music store. I was getting props basically for my ability to hump stuff >up the back stairs and plug it in, as much for the music I actually played.

ever notice how rarely we celebrate the people who actually write the scripts for movies? technicians at shows get tons of props for having the props, but having a pretty basic knowledge of working things (oh, band says bass is too high, must move this slider). people don't care about who's writing the music for britney spears, or who's writing her lyrics, or coordinating her dance moves. they care about britney spears. heh heh heh

quoted 1 line Which is to say that the showbiz stuff is bullshit.

>Which is to say that the showbiz stuff is bullshit.

well, uhh, duh. :)

quoted 4 lines Aphex Twin got a lot

> Aphex Twin got a lot >of mileage out of smelly teddy bear suits. I've thought of hiring a clown >to make balloon animals during my sets. Given my ridiculous stage name, >maybe I should get a chair from the Goodwill and smash it up on stage.

well it depends on what you want to perform. if you want everyone to think you're "that crazy guy who smashes furniture!" then go right ahead. if you want people to think that you're "that crazy guy who's just sitting there", then that's your choice too. it's all what you want to convey to the audience. if someone hates it, when then they're a critic, and critics are wrong :) what it really comes down to is a re-evaluation of the live performance. some people may not like it. i love it - i wish more people would come through minneapolis and actually tell people about it (gonna see coldcut - w00p!), cos i just like hearing good music, and if someone cares enough about their music to haul gear around and play it for an audience of critics, then they must have paid some attention to their physical performance as well. i personally find it much more engaging than sitting at home listening to a cd. at least the musician is there. and yes, the musician knows the audience is watching. cheers, /derek ----------- "Extremism is no vice when God's on your side" -Opus the Penguin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

well this has been replied to already, but i'm going to offer a different viewpoint. hello kent! we've never met ;) >"Electronic music challenges the performer in ways that traditional performance does not. Since the music is created outside of real time (sometimes WAY outside of real time -- like when I tweak the same 1 bar loop for two >hours), it is a challenge to really make it a performance." true, although i would say there are two things to play during a show - totally new tracks, or tracks that people are familiar with. it's usually a mix of these (literally, heh heh). and hey, i'm sure some people set up a bar loop and just tweak it to death for 2 hours live. although unless you're into that it wouldn't work too well ;) >"Just pushing 'play' on a laptop doesn't constitute a live performance, granted." why not? does live mean being there in person, or creating all the sounds on the spot? if the person has to hit "play" to create music on his laptop/instrument, then he's performing. what about guitarists who set up long feedback loops by hitting one string and having the soundguy sustain it for 5 minutes? >"But it sounds like what people are asking for is the kind of spectacle created by rock bands. If you want that, maybe Nelson will attempt a comeback and make you happy. But is there is something inherently valid about prancing around >like a drunken weasel playing a 3 note bassline?" well, yeah, it's really funny. >I don't think so. And some of the most riveting performances I've seen, like the Philip Glass Ensemble, were very static on stage. very true, and brings into play another aspect of this argument - how the musician/performer and the audience interpret the event. the performer could see this as a very solemn event, and acts accordingly. ideally, they'll have some mood lighting (either spotlighting or other backlighting), and the audience will be there to hear music. >It is possible to be very spontaneous with a laptop. Vladislav Delay's >set was done with Reaktor, and it is very much live. Kit Clayton live >is very live. Stewart Walker live is very live. these are the artists instruments, and they're playing them on stage. it's not their fault that they're new ideas and new instruments and a very different way of creating music. >Rich Devine (when I saw him) was playing digital audio straight out of >cubase, but he was tweaking it live with effects and an access virus. >I thought it was way cool because it was cool music. People dug it. from what i've heard (both from gossip and from his studio tracks), his music is very involving, and usually very danceable, although weird. if you can get everyone focused on something other than yourself, then it doesn't matter what you do. although it doesn't matter what you do even if everyone is watching you. >But if someone wants to come in and push play, judge it on it's merits. If they were up all night the night before lashing a new track together, >and no one except the artist has heard it before, isn't that something? very much so. if i were to perform live, i'd make sure to look into the audience with these big demonic grins and hope to scare someone ;) >And if you're not a musician, how do you know what they're actually doing? You want grand gestures, and there may not be any associated with what >a person is doing musically. this is exactly the differences in perspective on whether a performance is "good" or "non-existent" etc. who's to say whether leaning over and grabbing a glass of water, turning towards the audience, taking a sip whilst some crazy tunes blast out, and turning back to your equipment isn't a performance? maybe that's part of the act, eh? maybe the performer is performing by not moving..? >Gear for gear for it's own sake is about as creative as the front window >of a music store. I was getting props basically for my ability to hump stuff >up the back stairs and plug it in, as much for the music I actually played. ever notice how rarely we celebrate the people who actually write the scripts for movies? technicians at shows get tons of props for having the props, but having a pretty basic knowledge of working things (oh, band says bass is too high, must move this slider). people don't care about who's writing the music for britney spears, or who's writing her lyrics, or coordinating her dance moves. they care about britney spears. heh heh heh >Which is to say that the showbiz stuff is bullshit. well, uhh, duh. :) >Aphex Twin got a lot >of mileage out of smelly teddy bear suits. I've thought of hiring a clown to make balloon animals during my sets. Given my ridiculous stage name, >maybe I should get a chair from the Goodwill and smash it up on stage. well it depends on what you want to perform. if you want everyone to think you're "that crazy guy who smashes furniture!" then go right ahead. if you want people to think that you're "that crazy guy who's just sitting there", then that's your choice too. it's all what you want to convey to the audience. if someone hates it, when then they're a critic, and critics are wrong :) what it really comes down to is a re-evaluation of the live performance. some people may not like it. i love it - i wish more people would come through minneapolis and actually tell people about it (gonna see coldcut - w00p!), cos i just like hearing good music, and if someone cares enough about their music to haul gear around and play it for an audience of critics, then they must have paid some attention to their physical performance as well. i personally find it much more engaging than sitting at home listening to a cd. at least the musician is there. and yes, the musician knows the audience is watching. cheers, /derek ----------- "Extremism is no vice when God's on your side" -Opus the Penguin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org