IDM Mailing Archive

Hello, This is my response to people saying that dling an unapproved Mp3 is just like theft. I know the markup that big stores have, I've worked in an independant store for a year (no ties to any chain or distributor; we went for the cheapest legal provider)and know the prices we paid from the distrib without any discount for big orders and without selling free promos to customers. Luckily, while I was there I was allowed to home copy for my use any of the stuff I wanted. Record stores and record companies are fucking us over. There is no need for the prices they charge, it's not surprising to me that so many people are taking the free option. I still spend a fuckload on records, more than I should says the bank manager and the girlfriend, and feel no guilt. Do these artists care that I have to pay the ridiculous price for their work? It's pretty sickening that there is this outcry for the artist losing money through this (and thats ALL THE DEBATE IS ABOUT, I'm not affecting their art playing it in my house for free!) and for years we the fans are being royally fucked. You might say, "well don't buy it then!" and I agree I'll just DL it. I do subscribe to several Mp3 clubs where I send a cheque direct to the artist (as in the cheques in their name) and recieve rare tracks, liner notes and a cover digitally. I'm not going to offer my excuses or attempt to moralise my decisions. I'm well aware it's illegal. Please excuse these half baked thoughts and feel free to private mail me with your arguments. Scott ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line Record stores and record companies are fucking us over. There is no need

> Record stores and record companies are fucking us over. There is no need

for

quoted 3 lines the prices they charge, it's not surprising to me that so many people are

> the prices they charge, it's not surprising to me that so many people are > taking the free option. I still spend a fuckload on records, more than I > should says the bank manager and the girlfriend, and feel no guilt. Do

these

quoted 3 lines artists care that I have to pay the ridiculous price for their work? It's

> artists care that I have to pay the ridiculous price for their work? It's > pretty sickening that there is this outcry for the artist losing money > through this (and thats ALL THE DEBATE IS ABOUT, I'm not affecting their

art

quoted 3 lines playing it in my house for free!) and for years we the fans are being

> playing it in my house for free!) and for years we the fans are being > royally fucked. You might say, "well don't buy it then!" and I agree I'll > just DL it.

you are a fucking retard if you think that "IDM" is a lucrative business and that the artists and labels making the "IDM" music you like are sitting back, smoking hundred dollar bills and buying rollies and Benzes. all but a precious handful have to have full-time jobs to support making music/releasing records. most labels and artists will and do lose money for quite a while to get their art out. you seem to think that it's wrong for someone to want to make a living by creating something that you like.

quoted 3 lines I'm not going to offer my excuses or attempt to moralise my decisions. I'm

> I'm not going to offer my excuses or attempt to moralise my decisions. I'm > well aware it's illegal. Please excuse these half baked thoughts and feel > free to private mail me with your arguments.

and I'm not typing an email right now. I am not making words with my keyboard and I am not sending them to you via the idm list. -rk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Thanks for the "fucking retard" comment, glad to see the art of debate isn't dead. If you don't agree with me fair enough, I can handle it, but lay off the schoolyard shit. ok? My point was that record companies and record stores are fucking the customer over. Which on the whole you'll find they are. If a store owner can buy a new Cd at ?7.25 from a distributer (without discounts for bulk etc) then how do you explain the price it hits the shelves at. everyone who is part of chain is part of the problem. I'll respect a person who I want to but from if they respect me as a customer. I don't think it's wrong to make a living off something I like, I think it's "sickening" to hear this great defence of the "artists" when they are well aware that it's hitting the shops at such a rididulous price. And the customer is paying well over the odds for a cheapish product. I am one of those anal guys who buys the 10", 12" and cds, and a bit of a collector. The fact that they are seeing such a small return on their "art" is also something i don't agree with, but you know if i'm in a job with low pay I move on. But thats a different argument. Your aggression is not appreciated, go get a punch bag or masterbate more often. Scott ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Mon, 22 May 2000, Scott McKeating wrote:

quoted 4 lines My point was that record companies and record stores are fucking the

> My point was that record companies and record stores are fucking the > customer over. Which on the whole you'll find they are. If a store owner can > buy a new Cd at ?7.25 from a distributer (without discounts for bulk etc) > then how do you explain the price it hits the shelves at.

most record companies, stores etc. are in the business primarily to make money. some feel that they have to make more money on a transaction than others, but no matter how nice the record store is, they still need to pay the rent, utilities, advertising, etc. so some markup is always a necessity otherwise, you arent' going to be able to find your records anywhere because nobody's making money i don't think there's a giant conspiracy involving every music label or store to rip off the customer. there is definitely a market-wide habit of marking up the product by over 1000% but this is more to do with the major manufacturers' anti-competitive practices forcing retailers to conform to a Minimum Advertised Price or they are cut off from the major distributors. Small labels are forced to use the major distributors or they cannot sell their product, small stores have to use them too otherwise nobody will bother coming into their store. On the whole, i think you will find that small stores (i.e. not TOwer or Virgin or COconuts or Sam Godforbid) and small labels (i.e. not WEA or Virgin or Universal or Sony) are not trying to screw the customer but it is an industry-wide pricing model that they are forced to take part in or enjoy a mere .0001% of the market. -- String Theory : Digital Music for Humans http://www.enteract.com/~yoshi/index.cgi --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Irritably Debating Music? From: Rjyan Kidwell <cex@tigerbeat6.com>

quoted 4 lines you are a fucking retard if you think that "IDM" is a lucrative business

>you are a fucking retard if you think that "IDM" is a lucrative business >and >that the artists and labels making the "IDM" music you like are sitting >back, smoking hundred dollar bills and buying rollies and Benzes.

[snip] On Mon, 22 May 2000, Scott McKeating wrote:

quoted 3 lines Thanks for the "fucking retard" comment, glad to see the art of debate isn'

> Thanks for the "fucking retard" comment, glad to see the art of debate isn't > dead. If you don't agree with me fair enough, I can handle it, but lay off > the schoolyard shit. ok?

[snip] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines ernie, it's time for one of your resolutions on this matter in valley girl

>ernie, it's time for one of your resolutions on this matter in valley girl >style >though.

Nah, unlike the subjective Squarepusher thread this thread is cut and dry - you either have A: people who make sense with real-world proof & experience (Ninja Jeff, Rjyan Kidwell, etc.) B: people who want something for nothing & think ALL aspects off the music industry down to tiny microlabels are in a huge conspiracy to not only keep the lights on & rent paid, but have extravagant lifestyles at the expense of the poor lil student who are the victims of yet another capitalist trap. It costs money to release records - if you arent in the business then shut up, we are ignorant outsiders. Jeff Waye should NOT have to drag out his accounting ledger to justify for us how he sells records - F___ off.. Pay the artists people, they dont owe you shit. Everything can't be free. ernie Ernesto Ikerd, (817) 763-4795 Company Graphics, Dept 17, MZ-4202 Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company Fort Worth, Texas --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

ernie, it's time for one of your resolutions on this matter in valley girl style though. Josh Davison wrote:

quoted 35 lines On Mon, 22 May 2000, Scott McKeating wrote:

> On Mon, 22 May 2000, Scott McKeating wrote: > > > My point was that record companies and record stores are fucking the > > customer over. Which on the whole you'll find they are. If a store owner can > > buy a new Cd at £7.25 from a distributer (without discounts for bulk etc) > > then how do you explain the price it hits the shelves at. > > most record companies, stores etc. are in the business primarily to make > money. some feel that they have to make more money on a transaction than > others, but no matter how nice the record store is, they still need to pay > the rent, utilities, advertising, etc. so some markup is always a > necessity otherwise, you arent' going to be able to find your records > anywhere because nobody's making money > > i don't think there's a giant conspiracy involving every music label or > store to rip off the customer. there is definitely a market-wide habit of > marking up the product by over 1000% but this is more to do with the major > manufacturers' anti-competitive practices forcing retailers to conform to > a Minimum Advertised Price or they are cut off from the major > distributors. Small labels are forced to use the major distributors or > they cannot sell their product, small stores have to use them too > otherwise nobody will bother coming into their store. On the whole, i > think you will find that small stores (i.e. not TOwer or Virgin or > COconuts or Sam Godforbid) and small labels (i.e. not WEA or Virgin or > Universal or Sony) are not trying to screw the customer but it is an > industry-wide pricing model that they are forced to take part in or enjoy > a mere .0001% of the market. > > -- > String Theory : Digital Music for Humans > http://www.enteract.com/~yoshi/index.cgi > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

-- _______ | | | /\ | | |\ | |______ |__| /__\ | | | \ | || | / \ | | | \ | "adventures in lame" _______|| | / \ \__/ | \| www.mp3.com/5x - what the fuck? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

When did I say that the IDM industry is living the extravagent life! If you check back you'll see that this gross exaggeration was from Rjyan "someone with real world experience" at exagerating, putting words in my mouth and being offensive. Check the words I wrote before coming back at me for having no "real world" experience, what I don't live in real world like those who run businesses? I never once mentioned Ninja tune in any of my mails never mind this one, and I have no interest in seeing their books. Where are you getting this stuff from? as for this...

quoted 5 lines B: people who want something for nothing & think ALL aspects off the

>B: people who want something for nothing & think ALL aspects off the >music industry down to tiny microlabels are in a huge conspiracy to not >only keep the lights on & rent paid, but have extravagant lifestyles at >the expense of the poor lil student who are the victims of yet another >capitalist trap.

it's a fact we are being charged too much for CDs. it's common knowledge how much they cost to produce and how much the stores buy them for. if you think it's value for money, then good for you. And don't bother dropping the "Student with a conspiracy theory" stuff, it's a little silly don't you think. I'm not a student, and anyway what if I was.

quoted 4 lines It costs money to release records - if you arent in the

>It costs money to release records - if you arent in the >business then shut up, we are ignorant outsiders. Jeff Waye should NOT >have to drag out his accounting ledger to justify for us how he sells >records - F___ off..

You're right it costs money to release records. And it costs me a fortune to buy them, I consider myself as part of the business chain being a customer and feel I'm entitled to an opinion. These people are producers of a product, and I'm buying it. I never asked anyone to justify their business practice to me, especially not Ninja tune. Being a mite over protective there. I'm sure the indies hearts are in the right place, and I pray for the day when they have total control over pricing in the big stores. I'm not happy being overchargred by any company, call it what you want but don't pretend I'm some kinda marxist avenger. Put Simply, I buy lot of records and until the record companies and stores stop taking a huge chunk off the top then I'll continue to get stuff for free too. I have seen the prices shops pay for stock, I don't mind paying (as I have done and continue to do) but I just don't want to pay that much. Whats with the fuck off? Can't you people hold a conversation without this BA Baracus attitude creeping in?! SCott ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line Thanks for the "fucking retard" comment

> Thanks for the "fucking retard" comment

any time, son, any time.

quoted 3 lines The fact that they are seeing such a small return on their "art" is also

> The fact that they are seeing such a small return on their "art" is also > something i don't agree with, but you know if i'm in a job with low pay I > move on. But thats a different argument.

yes, if by "different" you mean "retarded." you're saying you want to see artists get paid MORE, but you want to pay LESS to buy their music? think about that for a second. plus, (and this is my original point) we're talking about "IDM" labels here, these labels are not run by fatcats who take a swim in a big vault of gold coins every day. they're run by regular dudes out of their bedrooms. they're run by people like you and me. if these labels start paying more to the artist, they've gotta charge more to the distributors so that they stay in the clear. and let me reiterate: VERY FEW are making a living off their label. financing their mortgage is not what dictates the price they charge for their records. wanting to not lose money and to be able to make new records is. and to pre-empt a rehashing of the naive idea that labels could just "cut out all the middlemen" to eliminate the mark-ups, which someone posted about earlier: here's a strictly hypothetical example: say i run a record label called Tigerbeat6. as of now, we sell our CDs to various distributors (forced exposure, hardwax, darla, etc) and directly to certain stores (safety in numbers, bent crayon, etc). but the mp3 d00dz have a revolution and we are forced to cut out the middle men and sell all our records directly ourselves. First thing that we loes is a lot of TIME. The time we could be making tracks, setting up and playing shows and tours, networking and getting our tracks out on other labels and on comps and doing remixes, organizing new releases for the label, etc -- now we're spending a lot more of this time processing orders for our CDs. getting the orders via email, printing them out, putting the discs in a box, cashing the checks, etc. basically, we'd have to do the work of a distro or store (which is a full-time job for those doing it now). also, we have more cost to figure into making records, too - we have to ship them individually to every customer that orders them. if we're a big enough label, we may even have to hire more people to help us do all this processing/shipping. so there's going to be some mark-up anyway. and the worst problem of all with this situation that i see, is that new releases are going to come MUCH slower. now we can drop something like 50-120 cds at a time on a distro like forced exposure or hardwax and get paid for all of them in 30 or 60 days (sooner if they run out)... under the "no middlemen" law of the mp3 d00d regime, we'd be making money X$ at a time, with each order. So in order to have a big pile of money to put out a new release with, we'd have to wait quite a while until enough orders roll in. And the majority of orders for a new CD aren't going to all come in within 2 weeks of it being released. The orders are spread out over a long period of time -- people wait to hear it, wait until enough mags come out with good reviews of it, or just wait until they have enough money, etc. So basically, this would HAVE to be a full-time job. In order to have enough time to make tracks, put together the releases, handle all the selling and shipping of the releases.. in order to do that i'd BETTER be making a somewhat comfortable living off of the whole thing. now i'm not the biggest fan of capitalism. but i AM a fan of eating. and since i live in america, until there's a mp3 d00d revolution and things are meted out based on need, i'm going to try and not lose money with my musical endeavors. if that means that someone has to drop 12, 13, 14 bucks on my cd, i don't think that's the worst thing in the world.

quoted 2 lines Your aggression is not appreciated, go get a punch bag or masterbate more

> Your aggression is not appreciated, go get a punch bag or masterbate more > often.

hey! i masturbate plenty thank you very much. -rk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines Whats with the fuck off? Can't you people hold a conversation without this

>Whats with the fuck off? Can't you people hold a conversation without this >BA Baracus attitude creeping in?!

Shaddap, CHUMP! I PITY THE FOOL that takes personal offense when I make broad generalizations taking into account this tired thread over the years ive been on this list! I realize your need to struggle and make the shoe fit you so that I appear to be casting stones directly at you, but Im painting with a brush too broad to do anything but *summarize* and steamroll shades of gray into B&W issue. That is why I chimed in, because I occasionaly like to boil stupid threads down to their *stupid components*. like a one-paragraph Cliff Notes, but for cynical people sick of threads like these, SUCKA! Mr E Ernesto Ikerd, (817) 763-4795 Company Graphics, Dept 17, MZ-4202 Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company Fort Worth, Texas --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

He's helluva tough! -- String Theory : Digital Music for Humans http://www.enteract.com/~yoshi/index.cgi On Tue, 23 May 2000, Ernesto Ikerd wrote:

quoted 27 lines Whats with the fuck off? Can't you people hold a conversation without this

> >Whats with the fuck off? Can't you people hold a conversation without this > >BA Baracus attitude creeping in?! > > Shaddap, CHUMP! I PITY THE FOOL that takes personal offense when I make > broad generalizations taking into account this tired thread over the > years ive been on this list! I realize your need to struggle and make > the shoe fit you so that I appear to be casting stones directly at you, > but Im painting with a brush too broad to do anything but *summarize* and > steamroll shades of gray into B&W issue. That is why I chimed in, because > I occasionaly like to boil stupid threads down to their *stupid > components*. like a one-paragraph Cliff Notes, but for cynical people > sick of threads like these, SUCKA! > > Mr E > > Ernesto Ikerd, (817) 763-4795 > Company Graphics, Dept 17, MZ-4202 > Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company > Fort Worth, Texas > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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