IDM Mailing Archive

i forget the original post, but i'd like to stick up for OST and Low Res. IMO, OST and Low Res made a respected name for themselves back on Canada's Switch imprint and the Sublime label, respectively, well over 5 years ago. peronsonally, i've made a point of paying attention to these two since i first heard them then, so when they release stuff on Phthalo, Dial, Plug Research, Mille Plateaux, etc, in 1998, 1999 and on that gets great reviews and people talking about them, it doesn't surprise me to see the compliments, but it does seem strange to have people deny their track records. my 2 cents. andrew :) sfwd_prod wrote:

quoted 16 lines that limited cdr.. not to be too snobby, but id bet a good number of the

> > that limited cdr.. not to be too snobby, but id bet a good number of the > > folks who collect the phthalo stuff, and other cdr releases, have yet to > > listen to them. > > god i hope you are wrong on this :) i love all the phthalo stuff that > i do have, and when phthalocyanine or crank or one of the artists > i know release something again, i'll drop the money on it. it could > be limited to 1 or 1 million, not the point for me and if someone paid > $15 for a cdr because it was ltd to 50 and haven't even listened to it > i'd love to know who they are just some i could burn 10 copies and of the same > thing and mail it off to them... (maybe i'd make a photocopied liner notes > thing to make them even more special!) > > my point... i still have faith that the music remains the more important > aspect here. > the angry voice

-- Andrew Duke Cognition Audioworks/In The Mix 1096 Queen St #123 Halifax NS Canada B3H 2R9 TEL 902-422-7132 FAX 902-422-1262 http://www.globalserve.net/~cognition ONLINE now: In The Mix show 578:Juan Atkins/Low Res/Crank/Mark Wee

While we're at it, I might as well mention that I too think his releases are FAR too expensive. I've refrained from buying any because of that...

I am not an economist but... It seems that a few people on this list have refrained from buying Phthalo releases because of the outrageous prices. Hmmm... Lower the prices, sell more CDrs, make the same amount of money (possibly more), satisfy more customers... Hmmmm It might be worth a try. On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Jeremy J Graham wrote:

quoted 3 lines While we're at it, I might as well mention that I too think his releases

> While we're at it, I might as well mention that I too think his releases > are FAR too expensive. I've refrained from buying any because of that... >

Hess Hodge wrote:

quoted 5 lines I am not an economist but... It seems that a few people on this list have

> I am not an economist but... It seems that a few people on this list have > refrained from buying Phthalo releases because of the outrageous prices. > Hmmm... Lower the prices, sell more CDrs, make the same amount of money > (possibly more), satisfy more customers... Hmmmm It might be worth a > try.

One night after Space Disco for Fish Tacos, we went out to taco mesa for the standard fare, and I remember a fellow IDM lister going out to the parking lot with Dimitri to buy a phthalo cd. The person came back shaking his head, surprised at the astronomical amount Dimitri demanded for the artwork less CDR he had just sold him 'out of his trunk'. Just about everyone I know who makes CDR's (myself included) give them away, because that's what they're for, distributing music in small numbers to people who are enthusiastic about said music. If you're going to sell something, do it right. I.E.: Professional duplication, artwork, etc. Charging an arm and a leg for a CDR is just plain greedy. brock.

quoted 4 lines Just about everyone I know who makes CDR's (myself included) give them

>Just about everyone I know who makes CDR's (myself included) give them >away, because that's what they're for, distributing music in small >numbers to people who are enthusiastic about said music. >

<snip>

quoted 2 lines Charging an arm and a leg for a CDR is just plain greedy.

> >Charging an arm and a leg for a CDR is just plain greedy.

welp, to sew this argument up, keeping the price high is a way for a label to continue "distributing music in small numbers to people who are enthusiastic." it's hard to pay that much without being committed to giving the tunes a good shake. there's an accelerating number of next-big-things coming through the ol' musical poop chute and it takes something special to gain an identity in that onslaught. perhaps they've/he's decided that there's going to be a price of admission. in a way, these would be more affordable if the buyer wasn't so stuck on keeping their collection up to date with the testosterone-laden squarepusher/vvm scene. though it might be nice for the price if there was a little more packaging involved (coming from someone who rather likes the extra-musical tidbits with his albums), not everybody is starting labels on the back of their hi-tech day job savings account. keep in mind that some of the most talked about and praised artists from this list are literally starving (the food kind) from day to day. eric

first of all, some people keep saying "phthalo's prices are too high, phthalo does this, dimitri does that... i can't believe phthalo AND these other cd-r labels like that..." i'm not pointing fingers at anyone, but i've read more than one post that gave me the impression that there are people among us who think Dimitri's business practices are actually commonplace. uhh... no. i respect dimitri a lot, he's recently started distroing cd-rs from my label (underscore) and we've talked about pricing and he knows where i stand, but i don't anyone can honestly disagree with me when i say Dimitri and his buisness ethics are an ANOMALY... i think maybe that's what Dimitri is going for... being avant-garde musically just wasn't enough... he needed to employ avant-garde economic policy to complete the equation. the desired effect may just be something like this: [listener receives cd in mail, rips it open, pops it in stereo:] "whoa! i can't believe it! this artist is OUT OF HIS MIND!" [listener retrieves bill from the package, looks at price, eyes pop out of head:] "whoa! i can't believe it! this label is OUT OF HIS MIND!" rjck./!)_ armchairbeatarchitecture!)www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

i need to throw in a small disclaimer here since i started this thread :) i REALLY REALLY think dmitri, his music, and the music he puts out on his label are TOP NOTCH.. in fact, i think brock was referring to me when he mentioned a fellow idm-er buying a cd from the trunk of dmitris car. please understand that my gripe is on the price of cdrs.. and i was using phthalo as the most obvious example. i honestly have no idea what dmitris business practices are, but i think hes a super cool guy.. a bit twisted, but hey, thats whats appealing to me in the music. i jsut would hate to see this whole cdr pricing become a trend.. especially when so many people on the idm list buy into the whole limited edition thing. yes, im being selfish -- i would like music to be cheaper to its more accessible to me.. but at the same time, i REALLY like it when the same music is accessible to others as well.. id hate to se such sick sounds and music be limited to the idm rich elite who bust out the money just to have that limited cdr.. not to be too snobby, but id bet a good number of the folks who collect the phthalo stuff, and other cdr releases, have yet to listen to them. in fact, its that element of "idm" that REALLY makes me sad -- that somehow such sick sounds have been lowered to the level of bassball cards or garbagepail kids (well, kay, garbagepail kids are cool :) so -- perhaps its not dmitris pricing that upsets me.. but moreso the fact that people eat it up. like i said initially -- maye he's really on to something in charging so much.. and maybe others will catch on to the idea that there is a market of spoiled rich kids who would trade their ponies for a cdr :) and before someone goes off on me regarding "an artists need to make money" -- i more than agree.. and if you dont believe that, yure welcome to come over and see just how much money i have donated to artists in exchange for their wonderful music. ill even make you lunch. chris. i am not daniel. i am not peach. i am not sterile. music, four lunchpails: wednesdays 7-8pm kuci 88.9fm www.kuci.org "chicks dig laptops"

quoted 3 lines that limited cdr.. not to be too snobby, but id bet a good number of the

> that limited cdr.. not to be too snobby, but id bet a good number of the > folks who collect the phthalo stuff, and other cdr releases, have yet to > listen to them.

god i hope you are wrong on this :) i love all the phthalo stuff that i do have, and when phthalocyanine or crank or one of the artists i know release something again, i'll drop the money on it. it could be limited to 1 or 1 million, not the point for me and if someone paid $15 for a cdr because it was ltd to 50 and haven't even listened to it i'd love to know who they are just some i could burn 10 copies and of the same thing and mail it off to them... (maybe i'd make a photocopied liner notes thing to make them even more special!) my point... i still have faith that the music remains the more important aspect here. the angry voice

I agree with brock. There's no reason anyone should be charging more than $5 for a CD-r when they won't play on all CD players and the emulsion deteriorates after a few years rendering them unplayable. (anyone know exactly how long? 5-10 years?) I've always through that CD-r's would help level the playing feild for amateur musicians, but not this way. A full CD-R with color copies runs around $3, as opposed to about $1.50 for real CD's in a quantity of 1000. This opens up a great opportunity for artists to sell high quality demos that can play in most CD players made in the last few years direct to fans and send them to labels, radio stations, promoters, media, etc. (Much like brock and company did with the "2 Silver Boxes vs. Ultrawide" CD, very good btw) They're also great for trading live recordings (please don't ask me, I won't copy anything for you), early demos, copies of rediculously overpriced limited edition idm releases, out of print releases as well as saving money on software, photo cd's, and playstation games.. I bought the first two phthalo CD-r releases when they were limited to 50 copies, but at $12 and $17 for a CD-r with no artwork at higher quantities I just don't see the point anymore. I tend to think of CD-R's as a cassette copy, a cheap alternative to the real thing and I'm not about to pay more than the real thing for a shoddy replacement. Frankly, I don't understand why an artist would bother with a CD-r label when any artist can buy a CD burner for $300 and do it themselves. At least Underscore has some really cool packaging that looks like a big matchbook, but underneath all that it's still not the real thing, and it still wont play on all CD-players. np: the history channel. Brock Suter <brock@alchemyfx.com> wrote:

quoted 19 lines One night after Space Disco for Fish Tacos, we went out to taco mesa for

> One night after Space Disco for Fish Tacos, we went out to taco mesa for > the standard fare, and I remember a fellow IDM lister going out to the > parking lot with Dimitri to buy a phthalo cd. > > The person came back shaking his head, surprised at the astronomical > amount Dimitri demanded for the artwork less CDR he had just sold him > 'out of his trunk'. > > Just about everyone I know who makes CDR's (myself included) give them > away, because that's what they're for, distributing music in small > numbers to people who are enthusiastic about said music. > > If you're going to sell something, do it right. > > I.E.: Professional duplication, artwork, etc. > > Charging an arm and a leg for a CDR is just plain greedy. > > brock.

-Daniel daniel@peachfuzz.net ============================================================================== Peach Space Disco For Fish Tacos PO Box 1902 8-10pm Wednesdays, KUCI 88.9fm Huntington Beach, CA 92647 www.peachfuzz.net/space www.peachfuzz.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sterile: Orange County's Intelligent Electronic Monthly www.peachfuzz.net/sterile ============================================================================== "A lot of people just talk out of their ass, I happen to fall under that category" -Dana Watanabe

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:07:13 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

quoted 4 lines I agree with brock. There's no reason anyone should be charging more than

>I agree with brock. There's no reason anyone should be charging more than >$5 for a CD-r when they won't play on all CD players and the emulsion >deteriorates after a few years rendering them unplayable. (anyone know >exactly how long? 5-10 years?)

the manufacturers' estimates are between 75 and 200 years, though independent testers have put the figure at anything from 40 years upwards, depending on formulation. that still compares well with pressed cds, which have been estimated to last not much more than 25 years. so the longevity isn't a problem - the 5-10 years figure you quote is for discs that haven't been recorded on yet. as for compatibility, that's still a hazy subject.. my old yamaha, which must be getting on for 10 years old, has never failed to play any kind of cdr (and it has been fed a /lot/ of different types), whereas other people's brand new players will spit certain kinds of discs out, especially the low-grade silver/blue types. when i need to buy a new cd player, it's going to be a /nightmare/ - i'll have to take 50 different discs to the shop and make sure they all play correctly! for the map one release i used unbranded tdk (which are generally regarded as the best brand), and i didn't hear about any people who couldn't get it to play (apart from one poor guy who kept putting the disc in upside down..) i understand the feeling that some of these people charge too much for their cdr releases. not that i'm trying to defend phthalo's 17 dollar no-artwork policy, but it takes a little more effort to make these things than simply going to the store and buying a spindle of discs for x amount of money.. firstly, the mastering can sometimes take a long time (for map one it took 3 weeks), and recording these things is the most boring, time consuming task there is, during which time you can't use your computer, so you have to do stupid stuff like reading books <grin>. then artwork has to be made.. i think that if people are making limited runs on cdr, then an effort should be made to produce packaging that reflects this.. the map one covers were all different (an individual 1/100 section of the picture on the back) and printed on transparencies which i had to hand-cut to shape, put in plastic sleeves and labelled. so all that involves a little extra time and money. so yes, cdr releases can generate a lot of profit, but for some people (like me) that profit is the only possible way to collect together enough money to take a step up the ladder (that's to say, 'proper' cds in larger numbers and with distribution). you're never going to do that if you sell your releases non-profit. <waves>

quoted 4 lines I agree with brock. There's no reason anyone should be charging more than

>I agree with brock. There's no reason anyone should be charging more than >$5 for a CD-r when they won't play on all CD players and the emulsion >deteriorates after a few years rendering them unplayable. (anyone know >exactly how long? 5-10 years?)

as i have a cd-r album that is going to be available very shortly, i feel the need to defend myself and other cd-r people against claims like these .. first of all, cd-rs play on the majority of cd players. im not aware of any studies or reliable sources to refer to here, but assuming that the cd-r is in right side up (green or blue or whatever side goes DOWN) it should play in the vast majority of players.

quoted 3 lines I've always through that CD-r's would help level the playing feild for

>I've always through that CD-r's would help level the playing feild for >amateur musicians, but not this way. A full CD-R with color copies runs >around $3, as opposed to about $1.50 for real CD's in a quantity of 1000.

a breakdown of cost in a "typical" cd-r release, assuming 100 total copies will be burnt: cd: approx $100 color reproduction for artwork: $200 neato labels for cd: $20 jewel cases: $20 naturally, some of these things could be cheaper/more expensive, so please don't reply saying "i got _200_ jewel cases for sale for $10, blah blah blah". to get your music to a good number of people, on cd-r, takes a considerable amount of time and money. the cd-rs don't burn themselves.. at 30-40 minutes a disc, that's 3000-4000 minutes of burning time alone, plus time for cutting art, printing art. shipping and handling add to the total cost, labeling cds takes time .. once all this is done, there are endless trips to the post office sending your cds to people. selling cds for $5 a pop would be noble, but, ultimately, foolish. a person who did, even if he sold every single cd he made, would likely not have enough money to repeat the process, after he got around to making new music.

quoted 5 lines Frankly, I don't understand why an artist would bother with a CD-r label

>Frankly, I don't understand why an artist would bother with a CD-r label >when any artist can buy a CD burner for $300 and do it themselves. At >least Underscore has some really cool packaging that looks like a big >matchbook, but underneath all that it's still not the real thing, and it >still wont play on all CD-players.

an artist would bother with a cd-r label because it's easier than going through the process i mentioned above. i would recommend, however, ditching the cd-r method and fronting the money to a duplication plant. save you time and headaches.. noah ps: hypothetically, if phthalo releases DID have nice artwork for each release, would $12 be fair then? what is a fair price for a nicely designed cd-r release, now that everyone is aware of the hassle and cost of creating such a thing? ;)

quoted 10 lines Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:24:59 GMT

>Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:24:59 GMT >From: artist@sub-con-geo.demon.co.uk (little miss trinitron) >Subject: Re: (idm) phthalo prices > > >so yes, cdr releases can generate a lot of profit, but for some people >(like me) that profit is the only possible way to collect together >enough money to take a step up the ladder (that's to say, 'proper' cds >in larger numbers and with distribution). you're never going to do >that if you sell your releases non-profit.

my sentiments exactly. the generalizations here are flying all over the place... there most certainly ARE cd-r labels interested in keeping the prices for their discs low... for anyone to write off the concept of a cd-r label prima fascia because of what dimitri does or because they're afraid that in 40 years their cd won't play seems ridiculous... especially when there *are* labels completely to the contrary. and i don't think anyone, with the sole exception of dimitri (who is an ANOMALY, plain and simple) is seriously interested in making big bucks off of cd-r releases and never "step up the ladder." personally, my intent is to get some music out that otherwise would not be heard and try and at the same time furnish a little capital for "proper" releases for the artists i work with and enjoy... keeping my releases inexpensive is my second priority behind keeping the music good. the whole philosophy, to me, is for Bobby Idmer to say: "well lookee here, a cd of music by a fellow listmember. and hey! it's 74 minutes long. and hey! it's only 10 bucks. and hey! it's got handmade packaging. and hey! Lance gave it a 9/10! what do i have to lose here? i'll be getting some new music and supporting someone who's interested in releasing the music of my fellow listmembers!" rjck./!)_ underscore: http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

quoted 4 lines ps: hypothetically, if phthalo releases DID have nice artwork for each

>ps: hypothetically, if phthalo releases DID have nice artwork for each >release, would $12 be fair then? what is a fair price for a nicely designed >cd-r release, now that everyone is aware of the hassle and cost of creating >such a thing? ;)

I don't think design has anything to do with music... I usually don't even look at my CDs because I don't see a shit... it's for me like looking in some sort of picture or sculpture, so design really doesn't bother me at all. I don't care about it... it's all shit anyway... all those different kinds of colors of my CDs on my shelves look really kitchy and disturb me... I wish they are all white, like my bedroom walls... Price is usually higher than other labels CDRs/CDs... but I would still buy everything Phthalo have released (except Icepick Tracks :-) ), because since I've heard Navy Warship in the month it came out (check out the archives for my review) and the tracks from Plug Research & Development I was hooked up with the sound and wanted to hear more and more... ... if there wasn't idm, allen (pr), and lynn hasty (green galactic) I wouldn't even hear for phthalo.... thanks... bye rob

At 01:00 PM 3/23/99 -0500, Noah wrote:

quoted 4 lines first of all, cd-rs play on the majority of cd players. im not aware of any

>first of all, cd-rs play on the majority of cd players. im not aware of any >studies or reliable sources to refer to here, but assuming that the cd-r is >in right side up (green or blue or whatever side goes DOWN) it should play >in the vast majority of players.

If you think that's true, bring over a stack of green CDRs & we'll try playing them in my car. The (1 year old) Sony 10 disc changer in my car doesn't like greens very much - more often than not they generate the dread E-04 message (they don't play at all). Terrible luck w/ green TDKs. Blue Verbatims almost always play, but w/ occasional skips on 30-40% of discs. Those weird green- tinged gold Sonys play better, skips on 10% of discs. Same w/ gold CDRs. If it plays in the car, it plays anywhere. I'm puzzled that someone said they have trouble with the green-tinged golds a few days ago, when I've had very good luck, at least w/ Sonys. And someone said TDKs were best, but they don't work for me. What I'd love to know is - does this depend on the burner at all? My initial thought would be no, it's all in the laser/pickup combo in the player, BUT, CDRs are so shrouded in mystery I wonder if the burner's ability to burn the different colored dyes doesn't also affect things. Comments? Real world experiences? But I digress. To qualify your original statement, PROPERLY TESTED CDRs will play on 90-99% of CD players. And quality control is incumbent upon the producer. Not every CDR has to be tested, but the producer should be aware of what brands play and what don't. Cductive, get a clue!

quoted 3 lines I've always through that CD-r's would help level the playing feild for

>>I've always through that CD-r's would help level the playing feild for >>amateur musicians, but not this way. A full CD-R with color copies runs >>around $3, as opposed to about $1.50 for real CD's in a quantity of 1000.

Dunno who wrote that, but it's important to note the difference in upfront capital costs. Assuming you already own the equipment, then the upfront cost to release a CDR album is the cost of a box of CDR blanks ($3 for a 5 pack at Fry's last week). Compare that w/ $1500 for a "real" CD release. Anyone who has visited a pawn shop has probably figured out that musicians tend to have cash flow problems. Not having to scrape up $1500 is a HUGE advantage. I think Stuart (Sub-Conscious Geography) has hit upon an excellent business plan. I hope it works as planned!

quoted 10 lines to get your music to a good number of people, on cd-r, takes a considerable

>to get your music to a good number of people, on cd-r, takes a considerable >amount of time and money. the cd-rs don't burn themselves.. at 30-40 >minutes a disc, that's 3000-4000 minutes of burning time alone, plus time >for cutting art, printing art. shipping and handling add to the total cost, >labeling cds takes time .. once all this is done, there are endless trips >to the post office sending your cds to people. > >selling cds for $5 a pop would be noble, but, ultimately, foolish. a person >who did, even if he sold every single cd he made, would likely not have >enough money to repeat the process, after he got around to making new music.

There's nothing foolish about trying to get your music into the hands (and ears) of as many people as possible. If this means working your ass off to distribute the first release or two, then so be it. A first CDR release should be looked upon as an advertisement for future products, not a product in itself (if you think it's art, not product, then give the damn things away).

quoted 2 lines i would recommend, however, ditching the cd-r method and fronting the money

>i would recommend, however, ditching the cd-r method and fronting the money >to a duplication plant. save you time and headaches..

Not everyone posesses the fiscal discipline necessary to go this route. Which is better, working multiple jobs to raise the cash to produce a proper CD (which would take time away from making music), or spending a little time to burn CDRs on demand? What works for you doesn't work for everyone. Obviously a lot of people are going the CDR route.

quoted 4 lines ps: hypothetically, if phthalo releases DID have nice artwork for each

>ps: hypothetically, if phthalo releases DID have nice artwork for each >release, would $12 be fair then? what is a fair price for a nicely designed >cd-r release, now that everyone is aware of the hassle and cost of creating >such a thing? ;)

Anyone who has taken even a high school course in economics knows that product pricing is a complex problem. It often has nothing to do w/ cost of production - record companies sell CDs for more $ than the more expensive to produce MCs. Also, the price relates to number of units sold in a non-linear fashion. Sell a CDR for $17 and you may sell 20, sell it for $10 and you may sell 100, sell it for $5 and you may sell 120. Obviously, for this hypothetical example selling it for $10 will net the most money. But determining the optimal price is difficult, often a matter of trial & error. Big corporations do it thru market testing and software analysis of sales. For the micro-label producing CDRs, it's more difficult. As much as we like to say "it's all about the music", people will pay more for an attractive looking product, even if they're buying it to listen to. Artwork would definitely "pay for itself" in terms of saleability, and I'd be willing to bet that it affects how often the CD gets played. Other factors to be considered are the (misguided) perception that CDRs are less durable and reliable, and the pereception, right or wrong, that self-produced music from unknown artists has lower production values than that from major label artists. Obviously this Dmitri guy has miscalculated, if people are bitching about his prices and lack of art. It sounds like he has a very shortsighted strategy. If he saved the profits from a few hundred CDR sales and invested them in proper CDs, he'd make more money for less effort, though obviously he'd have more capital tied up and there's always the risk of a release not selling, which means taking a loss, but so much less labor is involved that it would seem like a fair tradeoff. Che

On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Che wrote:

quoted 2 lines What I'd love to know is - does this depend on the burner at all?

> What I'd love to know is - does this depend on the burner at all? > [...] Comments? Real world experiences?

Many burners have a list of recommended brands of media. Different firmware revisions can affect the way the disc burns. One can anticipate some firmware revisions for any new CD burner. I remember reading the notes for a revision for a Yamaha burner. They said the new rev would provide better compatibility with audio CD players. The burner, brand of media, and firmware rev certainly can make a difference.

quoted 3 lines selling cds for $5 a pop would be noble, but, ultimately, foolish. a person

> >selling cds for $5 a pop would be noble, but, ultimately, foolish. a person > >who did, even if he sold every single cd he made, would likely not have > >enough money to repeat the process, after he got around to making new music.

The price is so low that many would be deterred from buying. "It must not be very good if it's selling for $5." --Mark __ Burning Rome : SENSELESS CD on Mindfield Records MindCD03 Cathartium 14 > Distributed by Dutch East India Trading, Com Four, and Carrot Top < < http://www.xnet.com/~mkolmar/BurningRome > < MP3 & RealAudio tracks >