IDM Mailing Archive

Dear electronic music promoters: I went to the Jonah Sharp/MixMasterMorris/Amon Tobin show last night at the Cooler, NYC. I honestly didn't know what to expect, really, although I shouldn't have been suprised: Basically I paid $18 to hear DJs spin records. I don't know about everyone else, but I'm getting a bit sick of paying lots of money to see artists whose recordings I enjoy, only to end up watching them spin records. We're not talking turntable trickery either. All I heard was lots of recent 12" d-n-b singles played one after the other. (Well, okay, I *did* hear a nice Roy Ayers remix which was cool.;)) I've got nothing against paying a hefty nightclub admission charge to listen to DJs spin dance music, get high/drunk/laid, watch cute people, and just have fun. But these celebrity alterna-electronica DJ gigs fucking *suck* - no dancing, no drugs, *some* cute boys and girls but not enough to be worth $18. For $18 I'd honestly rather see crystal method with their stupid fucking laser show and wanking guitars than just watch a DJ spin records to a bunch of people nodding their heads. I look at a band like Laika as an example: they had a ten peice band when I saw them and it was one of the best live shows I'd ever heard. Amon Tobin could hire a real fucking band to reproduce his electronic compositions and my bet is that it would sound fucking amazing. If he's just going to spin records, then for god's sake charge five bucks and drop the hype. I feel like a sucker. I honestly want to support artists I like, but not if they're going to go on tour and just spin the same fucking records I can hear in about twenty other NYC bars on any night of the week for free. We fans of this music should really stop letting ourselves be suckered by these fake concerts/fake parties. - Cf ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - c h r i s t ø p h e r f ª h e y . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ chris@raremedium.com 2 1 2 - 6 3 4 - 6 9 5 0 x 2 5 8 http://www.raremedium.com - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - .

On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Christopher Fahey wrote:

quoted 3 lines I went to the Jonah Sharp/MixMasterMorris/Amon Tobin show last night at

> I went to the Jonah Sharp/MixMasterMorris/Amon Tobin show last night at > the Cooler, NYC. I honestly didn't know what to expect, really, although I > shouldn't have been suprised: Basically I paid $18 to hear DJs spin records.

Well, as you say Chris, you shouldn't have been suprised. You've been around this list & this music for a long time - long enough to know that on the Ninja tours, most of the artists are gonna be spinning records. Hell, there've been at least a dozen posts in the last week or so about this show that have been very specific about the fact that no live performances were taking place. I'm not saying that the "studio artist touring as DJ" thing is right or wrong really. I'm just trying to point out this in this case, you should've known the score. <shrug> I *do* think, however, that local promotion for shows like this should be very clear about whether or not the artists will be DJing or performing live. There's only a small percentage of us who are as "in touch" with the scene and know about this shit before it hits town. Were I not so in the loop, I'd probably be pissed off as well.

quoted 2 lines Amon Tobin could hire a real fucking band to reproduce his electronic

> Amon Tobin could hire a real fucking band to reproduce his electronic > compositions and my bet is that it would sound fucking amazing.

I agree. But sadly, he doesn't. In fact, he's very adamant about it. You can get his side of the story at this URL which is an interview I did with him a few months back: http://www.interlog.com/~stained/feedback/othprint/amontobin.htm Greg

quoted 7 lines I look at a band like Laika as an example: they had a ten peice band

> > I look at a band like Laika as an example: they had a ten peice band >when I saw them and it was one of the best live shows I'd ever heard. Amon >Tobin could hire a real fucking band to reproduce his electronic >compositions and my bet is that it would sound fucking amazing. If he's just >going to spin records, then for god's sake charge five bucks and drop the >hype.

Ok..here's our defense...at least in regards to Amon Tobin who has, in my opinion a uniquely interesting and honest way of looking at presenting his music. he argues that his music is music made from "found" music. he works with samples and constructs them as noted to orchestrate a "produced" track in studio. He is a producer. When asked by interviewers (a question whic arises often) why he does not do "live" preformances, his response is why should he artificially reproduce his music in a way that that it wasn't actually made in the first place to satisfy a rock/live performance ethic. He says that his music was produced to be played out on vinyl or to be listenned to at home. He feels that the music should be presented the way it was designed to be listenned to. He is not a live musician...and that's ok..his produced music rocks..and that's all we care about

quoted 1 line I'd honestly rather see crystal method with their stupid fucking laser show

>I'd honestly rather see crystal method with their stupid fucking laser show

and wanking >

quoted 1 line guitars than just watch a DJ spin records to a bunch of people nodding their

>guitars than just watch a DJ spin records to a bunch of people nodding their

heads.... -ok...if you feel that way, more power to ya...but I think that's exactly what Amon is trying to avoid...the artificial reproduction..ie using a dat maching and hitting a coupla keyboard samples...wow party down dude that's a performance!

quoted 5 lines I feel like a sucker. I honestly want to support artists I like, but not

> I feel like a sucker. I honestly want to support artists I like, but not >if they're going to go on tour and just spin the same fucking records I can >hear in about twenty other NYC bars on any night of the week for free. We >fans of this music should really stop letting ourselves be suckered by these >fake concerts/fake parties.

we feel bad that anyone would leave a ninja night feeling like a sucker...in our defense the gig was advertised as a dj gig...most of our parties are cause 10 peice bands on tour cost a fortune..something we unfortunately just don't have. We have to fly in 4 guys from england, hotel, internal travel pay them...and ultimately the promoter puts the price tag on the event...we request that it don't go over $15..buy NY can be an expensive town. Obviously I wasn't at the show last night, but in my experience Mixmaster Morris is one of the best djs I've ever seen and generally speaking he plays a wide variety of music that I maynot have heard before and mixes so slyly (sorry kids not scratching) that he blends tons of genres and takes you on a journey that is crazy good..its very possible he had an off night in NY and if that's the case, once again... very sorry Last but certainly not least...as far as I understand Jonah's set he is actually travelling with effects and dat and remix equiopment and is playing yet unrealesed stuff and remixing it to some extent. Sorry dude, just had to repond cause ya seemed so mad...but it will be an eternal argument I guess...does dj-ing count as performance..I am sure the IDM archives has reams of heated discussion about this...The thing about dj tours for us is that it means we can afford to bring you an evening of diverse and challengeing music and hopefully bring the ninja-vibe party to a town near you... and hey as for cute girls and drugs...ya gots ta sort that shit out for yourself. Or pay 30 bucks and go to a rave and see some dj's there ninja phil stealthy not wealthy

NINPHIL wrote:

quoted 1 line Ok..here's our defense...

>Ok..here's our defense...

I'm definately pleased to read your "defense", and I should say that I meant no disrespect to the artists (or even to the label, really) - I simply was disappointed by the show. Ninja Tune obviously cares very much about this show being as fun as it can be for everyone - I mean only to offer constructive criticism to electronic music performers in general.

quoted 5 lines When asked by interviewers (a question whic

>When asked by interviewers (a question whic >arises often) why he does not do "live" preformances, his response is why >should he artificially reproduce his music in a way that that it wasn't >actually made in the first place to satisfy a rock/live performance >ethic.

I *totally* agree with Amon's attitude about this. The next logical question then, is, why is he touring at all? The biggest apparent reason to tour is, ironically, to "satisfy a rock/live performance" music and marketing paradigm! The problem is that with electronic dance music hitting a wider audience, touring artists (and their labels, promoters, etc) are torn between playing "parties" (i.e., DJ gigs with people mostly dancing) and playing "concerts" along the traditional rock/jazz model (a bunch of people face an onstage personality and *maybe* there's some dancing). And yet lots of shows of celebrity producer/artists are modeled after rock shows. This show was unfortunatley no exception. The "Detroit Techno All-Stars" tour, DJ Shadow, DJ Spooky, they've all been touring with these stupid proscenium stage setups. The idea of putting a (non-turntablist) DJ on a stage is still pretty boring, and the audience's head-bobbing behavior for many of these kinds of gigs is directly attributable to this arrangement.

quoted 2 lines we feel bad that anyone would leave a ninja night feeling like a

>we feel bad that anyone would leave a ninja night feeling like a >sucker...in our defense the gig was advertised as a dj gig...

No it wasn't. Most promotion I saw simply had the artist's names listed. Of course I was 95% sure it would be a DJ gig, but I was *hoping* for a surprise of some kind, like the surprise I had when Mad Professor wheeled out a ten foot long mixing board and a succession of MC's proceeded to rock the mike while he masgterfully fucked with the beats with his gear, or when Laika rolled out the huge percussion section, or even when Aphex Twin had the pair of dancing bears.

quoted 6 lines most of our

>most of our >parties are cause 10 peice bands on tour cost a fortune..something we >unfortunately just don't have. We have to fly in 4 guys from england, >hotel, internal travel pay them...and ultimately the promoter puts the >price tag on the event...we request that it don't go over $15..buy NY can >be an expensive town.

I understand. It's tough to tour and make money. Touring is supposed to do two things for an artist - 1) Sell records (by introducing the artist to a new audience or by reinforcing an existing fan base) and 2) Make the artist some money from the gigs themselves. In Ninja's defense, I would guess that a lot of people loved the show - I met people there who had never heard anything like it before, and I noticed some people watching the DJs beatmatching with the kind of awe as if they were seeing it for the first time. To these people, I suppose you've satisfied objective #1. But what about those of use who are 1) experienced/jaded enough to know what beatmatching is and what d-n-b music sounds like, but 2) don't get much aroused by just being in the presence of an artist we like? What can you provide for us? You could provide a slamming dance party I suppose, but $15 is a lot for a dance party at a bar, especially if no one is actually dancing because they're all staring at the rock-concert stage setup. Apparently the dancing did really hit a good clip late in the night, but the vibe could have been kicking a lot earlier if you simply did all you can to subvert the stage-centric club architecture.

quoted 6 lines Mixmaster Morris is one of the best djs I've ever seen and

>Mixmaster Morris is one of the best djs I've ever seen and >generally speaking he plays a wide variety of music that I maynot have >heard before and mixes so slyly (sorry kids not scratching) that he >blends tons of genres and takes you on a journey that is crazy good..its >very possible he had an off night in NY and if that's the case, once >again... very sorry

No, he was great. It's just that it's not the kind of thing you want to *look* at, it's the kind of thing you want to *dance* to.

quoted 2 lines as far as I understand Jonah's set he is

>as far as I understand Jonah's set he is >actually travelling with effects and dat and remix equiopment

Didn't notice this. I think that this is potentially an interesting thing for an artist like this to do on tour. But I rarely see anything like it.

quoted 2 lines Sorry dude, just had to repond cause ya seemed so mad...but it will be an

>Sorry dude, just had to repond cause ya seemed so mad...but it will be an >eternal argument I guess...does dj-ing count as performance..

IDM has had it up to here with the "is DJing an art" question, an argument which I will argue fervently in the affirmative. However, is beatmatching/party DJing fun to *watch*? Nah. Does being "live" make it any better than if it were just done for a mix tape in a studio? Sometimes, but usually not. The whole paradigm of what our "scene" can be on a tour needs to be defined a little more independently from the rock scene it has been emulating recently.

quoted 2 lines and hey as for cute girls and drugs...ya gots ta sort that shit out for

>and hey as for cute girls and drugs...ya gots ta sort that shit out for >yourself. Or pay 30 bucks and go to a rave and see some dj's there

:) Ah yes, the crakhead jailbait rave scene. No thanks. I wish all the artists and Ninja Tune a successful tour, but I would like to see these types of events become a little more exciting and less confused: either more performative like a rock/jazz show (the Tricky/Massive Attack route) or the pure dance club route (a la Goldie or Photek), or somewhere entirely new (the Mad Professor example, or what Jonah Sharp is trying to do.) - Chris

At 06:49 PM 9/29/98 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 7 lines The problem is that with electronic dance music hitting a wider

> The problem is that with electronic dance music hitting a wider >audience, touring artists (and their labels, promoters, etc) are torn >between playing "parties" (i.e., DJ gigs with people mostly dancing) and >playing "concerts" along the traditional rock/jazz model (a bunch of people >face an onstage personality and *maybe* there's some dancing). And yet lots >of shows of celebrity producer/artists are modeled after rock shows. This >show was unfortunatley no exception.

I didn't notice this in my town. The club had a tiny (too small for a band), high (too high to see anyone's hands) stage. Most people danced. Those that didn't stood or sat at the periphery. Nothing to look at on stage except a guy spinning rekkids, and the projected visuals covered two large walls so there was no need to even look at the stage if you're one of those types that dance with your eyes open (I liken dancing to kissing - the eyes provide an unwelcome distraction). My guess is that your experience was more a product of venue & a "we're too cool to dance" NYC audience. Personally, I don't understand how anyone could listen to this music & NOT DANCE! I had a serious toe injury, yet I didn't feel it until about 4 hours into the show.

quoted 4 lines I understand. It's tough to tour and make money. Touring is supposed to

> I understand. It's tough to tour and make money. Touring is supposed to >do two things for an artist - 1) Sell records (by introducing the artist to >a new audience or by reinforcing an existing fan base) and 2) Make the >artist some money from the gigs themselves.

You forgot 3) Give the artist some satisfaction in having reached & entertained an audience. I take it you've never played a live show.

quoted 9 lines But what about those of use who are 1) experienced/jaded enough to know

> But what about those of use who are 1) experienced/jaded enough to know >what beatmatching is and what d-n-b music sounds like, but 2) don't get much >aroused by just being in the presence of an artist we like? What can you >provide for us? You could provide a slamming dance party I suppose, but $15 >is a lot for a dance party at a bar, especially if no one is actually >dancing because they're all staring at the rock-concert stage setup. >Apparently the dancing did really hit a good clip late in the night, but the >vibe could have been kicking a lot earlier if you simply did all you can to >subvert the stage-centric club architecture.

As someone who is experienced/jaded enough (I've seen everyone from David Bowie to Caberet Voltaire to The Butthole Surfers to Autechre, live) to be thoroughly sick of the concert paradigm, and having performed electronic music live for over 12 years, I have to say that Amon Tobin's set is the freshest thing I've seen & heard since the last time I caught Orbital. What stopped you from dancing, anyway?

quoted 2 lines No, he was great. It's just that it's not the kind of thing you want to

> No, he was great. It's just that it's not the kind of thing you want to >*look* at, it's the kind of thing you want to *dance* to.

Again, what stopped you from dancing? I've never been in a venue I wasn't able to dance in, even in auditoriums with a seated audience I've been able to find a discrete spot to "commune" with the music. Did they put chains on your feet or what?

quoted 6 lines as far as I understand Jonah's set he is

>>as far as I understand Jonah's set he is >>actually travelling with effects and dat and remix equiopment > > Didn't notice this. I think that this is potentially an interesting >thing for an artist like this to do on tour. But I rarely see anything like >it.

Jonah used mostly sampling w/ a little delay, MMM used mostly delay w/ a little sampling. It was easy to hear if you know what to listen for, even if unfamiliar w/ the records they're playing.

quoted 10 lines Sorry dude, just had to repond cause ya seemed so mad...but it will be an

>>Sorry dude, just had to repond cause ya seemed so mad...but it will be an >>eternal argument I guess...does dj-ing count as performance.. > > IDM has had it up to here with the "is DJing an art" question, an >argument which I will argue fervently in the affirmative. However, is >beatmatching/party DJing fun to *watch*? Nah. Does being "live" make it any >better than if it were just done for a mix tape in a studio? Sometimes, but >usually not. The whole paradigm of what our "scene" can be on a tour needs >to be defined a little more independently from the rock scene it has been >emulating recently.

One thing that's obvious from the tour reviews posted is that the artists have played different records from show to show. No artist1 I saw was ignoring the audience, meaning that their record choice was based on audience feedback. That makes it better than a mix tape done in a studio, and lends an element of improvisation and "flying without a net" that is lacking when an artist plays a DAT. Of course 99% of the audience can't tell when a show is mimed to a DAT anyway. At 12:49 PM 9/29/98 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 7 lines I've got nothing against paying a hefty nightclub admission charge to

> I've got nothing against paying a hefty nightclub admission charge to >listen to DJs spin dance music, get high/drunk/laid, watch cute people, and >just have fun. But these celebrity alterna-electronica DJ gigs fucking >*suck* - no dancing, no drugs, *some* cute boys and girls but not enough to >be worth $18. For $18 I'd honestly rather see crystal method with their >stupid fucking laser show and wanking guitars than just watch a DJ spin >records to a bunch of people nodding their heads.

I'm beginning to get the idea that you're into music for something besides the music.

quoted 6 lines I look at a band like Laika as an example: they had a ten peice band

> I look at a band like Laika as an example: they had a ten peice band >when I saw them and it was one of the best live shows I'd ever heard. Amon >Tobin could hire a real fucking band to reproduce his electronic >compositions and my bet is that it would sound fucking amazing. If he's just >going to spin records, then for god's sake charge five bucks and drop the >hype.

My bet is that it would betray the music. Tobin's music is for me the pinnacle of postmodernist expression - to play it with a live band would be a grotesque expression of nostalgia (and don't think for a minute that recycling old music & recontextualizing is based on nostalgia).

quoted 5 lines I feel like a sucker. I honestly want to support artists I like, but not

> I feel like a sucker. I honestly want to support artists I like, but not >if they're going to go on tour and just spin the same fucking records I can >hear in about twenty other NYC bars on any night of the week for free. We >fans of this music should really stop letting ourselves be suckered by these >fake concerts/fake parties.

Please, tell me which bars in NYC I can hear nothing but Amon Tobin & Funki Porcini at, loud and for hours on end, on a Monday night and better yet for free. Next time I visit I'd like to visit one of these mythical places. Che rock - rok (v.) - having a conventional and/or boring nature. ex: "Khakis rock". "That Rolling Stones show rocked". syn: suck.

Good debate going on here. Hard for me to say what's the right answer to the prime question here- 'how do you present this music live in an exciting way?' Who goes to a classical performance and says 'that sucked- they just played it like on the record and didn't even move around'? Except for rock concerts, you usually don't see performers jumping around the stage with other types of music (unless you consider Moby to be IDM). NYC audiences aren't much better for being lively, as someone else pointed out here! Improv is something that can happen with the mixing and programming so that's not out of the question either. As for presentation, that varies a lot. I saw u-Ziq in an in-store performance and was amazed at how he quickly and effectively he manipulated several different devices. AFX was good to see for the homey props and the humping bears and LOUD sound. Shadow was a little disappointing as he stood in a corner on the stage with his turntables but things picked up when Latryx came out. Ideally, it should be the music that's the important thing for the live shows but you also go out to these things for the PRESENCE of these artists you like also. J Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect

OKay, this might be beating a dead horse but I wanted the Ninja guy to hear that I would definitely drop $$$ to see Amon Tobin DJ. I would also drop $$$ to see Kid Koala DJ (for more than 15 minutes-re: the Money Mark show). Send them to L.A. please... I would pay hella $$$ to see Tom Jenkinson, RDJ, or any other solid IDMer just play records. (Though live music is nice). Yeah, I have a nice sound system but it's nice to get out. -d np: Awesome Two + Jem (DJ Cam DJ kicks) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com