IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 3 lines something i've always found a bit curious. people are always so quick to

> >something i've always found a bit curious. people are always so quick to > >attack "4 on the floor dance caca" but i've found that 75% of the IDM > >tracks heralded as "brilliant" by list members are undeniably done in

4/4

quoted 5 lines time.

> >time. > > Uh? You can have four-to-the-floor in 3/4 time if you want....four to > the floor and "4/4" don't mean the same thing......one's a drummer's > term and the other's a time signature...

erm.. surely it'd be three-to-the-floor in 3/4 time? more to the point, why do the rhythmic elements in supposedly innovative tracks have to use the equivalent of kick drum, snare, hi-hats etc. ? Given a sampler, why do 99% of artists restrict themselves to imitating real world forms of percussive instrumentation? It's like getting one of those expensive new modelling synths and wanting a piano sound out of it. Giles

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Giles Ward wrote:

quoted 7 lines erm.. surely it'd be three-to-the-floor in 3/4 time? more to the point,

> > erm.. surely it'd be three-to-the-floor in 3/4 time? more to the point, > why do the rhythmic elements in supposedly innovative tracks have to use > the equivalent of kick drum, snare, hi-hats etc. ? Given a sampler, why do > 99% of artists restrict themselves to imitating real world forms of > percussive instrumentation? It's like getting one of those expensive new > modelling synths and wanting a piano sound out of it.

I always wondered this point. But morover I've come to believe that there is a certain vocabulary of techno. Not that producers have to stick to the vocabulary, but it's a starting point. Take yer average trance track for instance and you have the 909/808 drums, 303-esque acid line, some kind of pad sound, etc... Same can go for just about every kind of IDM. It's the tracks that push the timbral envelope that get the most attention. But don't forget, besides timbre, there's also rhythm and harmonic elements as well. So, one need only innovate in one of the three areas to compose something different.

quoted 3 lines Giles

> > Giles >

__ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ gil yaker / orbital@hazmat.com

In message <199710172032.VAA01761@sand.global.net.uk>, Giles Ward <gilesw@globalnet.co.uk> writes

quoted 5 lines Uh? You can have four-to-the-floor in 3/4 time if you want....four to

>> Uh? You can have four-to-the-floor in 3/4 time if you want....four to >> the floor and "4/4" don't mean the same thing......one's a drummer's >> term and the other's a time signature... > >erm.. surely it'd be three-to-the-floor in 3/4 time? more to the point,

Ok...well...maybe :) I chose a bad example there....well, alright then, you can have a 3/4 melody but the rhythm section can still be doing a four to the floor coz it all just wraps around back to the beginning in the end anyway doesn't it....just takes 3 bars of music instead of 4... -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions http://www.hybridgame.demon.co.uk/

On 19 Oct 97, Ben Coffer wrote:

quoted 5 lines Ok...well...maybe :) I chose a bad example there....well, alright

> Ok...well...maybe :) I chose a bad example there....well, alright > then, you can have a 3/4 melody but the rhythm section can still be > doing a four to the floor coz it all just wraps around back to the > beginning in the end anyway doesn't it....just takes 3 bars of music > instead of 4...

Oops, no - - - hang on! 3/4 time = waltz. Think *1*, 2, 3 / *1*, 2, 3 (boom chick chick) 4/4 time on the other hand is a whole variety of things: Generally *1*, 2, 3, 4 or 1, 2, *3*, 4 or *1*, 2, *3*, 4 or, obviously with the 4 on the floor we all _love_ every beat is equally valued, ie *1*, *2*, *3*, *4* BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM Reggae / dub might give you : 1, 2, 3, 4 *and*/ or 1, *2*, 3, 4 Argh - blah - this is hard to explain :-) but I just have a slight hiccup visualising a 3/4 melody as you suggest, with the 4x4 drum pattern bashing on in the background, "wrapping around" ... how was that again ? ... Spent too long studying music ... I * "Incomplete without surface noise" - Autechre

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Irene McC wrote:

quoted 9 lines Oops, no - - - hang on!

> Oops, no - - - hang on! > > 3/4 time = waltz. Think *1*, 2, 3 / *1*, 2, 3 > (boom chick chick) > 4/4 time on the other hand is a whole variety of things: > Generally *1*, 2, 3, 4 or 1, 2, *3*, 4 or *1*, 2, *3*, 4 > or, obviously with the 4 on the floor we all _love_ every beat is > equally valued, ie *1*, *2*, *3*, *4* BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM > Reggae / dub might give you : 1, 2, 3, 4 *and*/ or 1, *2*, 3, 4

Cool! Glad someone finally brought this up. I seem to recall a few black dog tracks written in 3/4 or 6/8 but with them, like you mentioned, the emphasis is usually on the first beat. That group The Young Gods always messed with crazy time signatures like 9/8 or 12/4 great stuff. But this brings up a good point. Locally I've always seen (and been a part of) heated discussions about the Nature of drum and bass. I usually belong to the (solitary) school that posits D'n'B is really the same as techno. As in, the are many more similarities between the dance opposites, than most people realize or think, or would like to believe. So my final theory on the differences between the two stryles was that with techno you have the emphasis on each beat, and being a little less concise, the emphasis is on the 1 and the 3. But the emphasis in D'n'B seems to always be on the 2 and the 4, hence the funky, syncopated nature, since the producers are playing off the beats that we naturally don't expect the emphasis to fall upon. __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ gil yaker / orbital@hazmat.com

On Monday, 20-Oct-97, Gil Yaker wrote [about Re: (idm) time sigs]:

quoted 4 lines Cool! Glad someone finally brought this up. I seem to recall a few black

>Cool! Glad someone finally brought this up. I seem to recall a few black >dog tracks written in 3/4 or 6/8 but with them, like you mentioned, the >emphasis is usually on the first beat. That group The Young Gods always >messed with crazy time signatures like 9/8 or 12/4 great stuff.

right, but 6/8 is a totally different meter from 3/4, it's not 3/4 x2 = 6/8 :) it's not the same type. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ \_____/ www.freq-div.home.ml.org

In message <E0xNI63-0005LP-00@relay01.iafrica.com>, Irene McC <tullym@iafrica.com> writes

quoted 7 lines Argh - blah - this is hard to explain :-) but I just have a slight

>Argh - blah - this is hard to explain :-) but I just have a slight >hiccup visualising a 3/4 melody as you suggest, with the 4x4 drum >pattern bashing on in the background, "wrapping around" ... how was >that again ? > >... Spent too long studying music ... >

Ok, i admit to knowing nothing about music, having never studied it... but i do know what 3/4 sounds like and 4/4.....Let me think of an example....how about "carcerus ex novum" by Xepher on Black Dog's bytes album...he (who?) is using a 4/4 breakbeat with a 3/4 tune.... and it does indeed "wrap around" (crap phrase huh?)...i think what i mean by wrap around is that beat number 1 of a 4/4 bar lines up with beat number 1 of a 3/4 bar...and it *does* in the end...after 3 bars of music i guess...i'd have to hear the tune again to be sure... look, *I* know what i mean ok??? :) -- Ben Coffer Hybrid Productions http://www.hybridgame.demon.co.uk/

as for contrasting time signatures, my favorite example has to be "The One After 909" on BROWN (another one of that seemingly infinite stream of Rather Interesting releases by atom heart). this starts with james brown shouting "1, 2, 3" in the left speaker and another guy counting "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" in the right speaker. both samples are looped. a whole other melody starts up in the middle, probably in 4 but i never bothered to count it. actually it might be in 15, which would be pretty funny (the whole 3 against 5 thing comes into sync every 15 beats, of course). the whole thing is pretty damn trippy and a rather graphic demonstration of polyrhythm in action. not a bad tune, either. :) 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 -- Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com SpotMedia Communications ...I was an infinitely hot and dense dot...

At 09:45 PM 10/20/97 +0100, Ben Coffer wrote:

quoted 9 lines Ok, i admit to knowing nothing about music, having never studied it...

>Ok, i admit to knowing nothing about music, having never studied it... >but i do know what 3/4 sounds like and 4/4.....Let me think of an >example....how about "carcerus ex novum" by Xepher on Black Dog's >bytes album...he (who?) is using a 4/4 breakbeat with a 3/4 tune.... >and it does indeed "wrap around" (crap phrase huh?)...i think what >i mean by wrap around is that beat number 1 of a 4/4 bar lines up >with beat number 1 of a 3/4 bar...and it *does* in the end...after 3 >bars of music i guess...i'd have to hear the tune again to be sure... >look, *I* know what i mean ok??? :)

I think I understand what you mean, and the theoretical term is called polyrythyms (the spelling is probably wrong). Try tapping out a triple meter with your right hand (1 2 3) and at the same time tapping 1 2 (evenly) with your left. The 1's should match up. If you get larger than that (5 over 4) you will experience 'wrap around' and the downbeats should match up every now and then. Sorry for getting technical.... Now a question: What sort of sound is Chimera? There is a copy of a white and black labeled vinyl (valley of the spirits possibly) at my local store and I'm curious. Is it worth 10$? ----------------------------------------------- ,,,,,, "Time flies like an arrow, -o-o- Fruit flies like a banana" l - -Groucho Marx anagram@cwnet.com k e l s e y http://home.cwnet.com/anagram

Ben Coffer wrote:

quoted 12 lines In message <E0xNI63-0005LP-00@relay01.iafrica.com>, Irene McC

> > In message <E0xNI63-0005LP-00@relay01.iafrica.com>, Irene McC > <tullym@iafrica.com> writes > >Argh - blah - this is hard to explain :-) but I just have a slight > >hiccup visualising a 3/4 melody as you suggest, with the 4x4 drum > >pattern bashing on in the background, "wrapping around" ... how was > >that again ? > > i mean by wrap around is that beat number 1 of a 4/4 bar lines up > with beat number 1 of a 3/4 bar...and it *does* in the end...after 3 > bars of music i guess...i'd have to hear the tune again to be sure... > look, *I* know what i mean ok??? :)

Yeah, you got it. Using the Jon Drukman illustration: 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 GD

In a message dated 97-10-20 20:24:19 EDT, you write: << I think I understand what you mean, and the theoretical term is called polyrythyms (the spelling is probably wrong). Try tapping out a triple meter with your right hand (1 2 3) and at the same time tapping 1 2 (evenly) with your left. The 1's should match up. If you get larger than that (5 over 4) you will experience 'wrap around' and the downbeats should match up every now and then. Sorry for getting technical.... Now a question: >> I play classical piano, even won second in state. It's not hard to reconize such beats, but even though you may have 2 on 3, or 3 on 2, it doesn't change the time signature. It's either triplets in halve or full time (2/4 4/4), or even notes (8th notes, quarter notes, i.e. not triplets) played in 3/4 time. Also known as waltz time. Why am I tell you this? dunno, mabey i saw my chance to contribute info on something I know a little more about. but either way, with those times, you get a real expressionistic feel into the music. -Aaron