IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 2 lines There is a legitimate contrast between Orbital and, say, AFX. Orbital's

>> >There is a legitimate contrast between Orbital and, say, AFX. Orbital's >> >music is often (though not always) not as complex,

Certainly RDJs latest HAB style stuff is a lot more complex than Orbital have ever been.

quoted 2 lines and they don't really

>> > and they don't really >> >"mess around" as much, not really taking as many chances.

But ultimately, this is what has made their music boring over the years. AFX has taken a fair share of chances and I believe that it's only now that they're really paying off. Come To Daddy is nothing special, although there are some good tracks on the different formats, but the Richard D James album is where Aphex shows the rest of the IDM lot how an LP is really done. The whole LP has a totally indivualistic feel, and the tracks consecutively, are like mini-detonations (bar the last one, where the sillyness goes to his head a bit).

quoted 4 lines But despite

>> > But despite >> >this, I believe they have something AFX doesn't have. We all know AFX's >> >purported attitude towards his music, and frankly, it shows, brilliant >> >though it is.

I agree it has shown in the past, and in Come To Daddy (Pappy Mix), but I thing the RDJ album trancends it's sillyness and becomes something utterly different after you've heard it a few times. It is not gimmicky, it's just great original music which justifies the hype.

quoted 8 lines But there is somthing to be said for the "soul" of a

>> >But there is somthing to be said for the "soul" of a >> >piece of music, and Orbital has it in spades. >> >> I'd have to agree to an extent. The only RDJ I own is ICBYD, and while I >> like it, it's not an album I really feel. Maybe that album is an anomaly, >> but much IDMish musik has a tendency to be overly intellectualized, and in >> the process it leaves behind emotional content and a sweet >> simplicity/directness.

For starters, I don't really believe all this crap about music having soul. This may offend some people, but the only things that matter are diversity and originality. This is what forms so called emotion or soul in music (for me). When artists excel at these two, the music becomes soulful. It's certainly not some kind of magical force or channel of emotions into music or anything like that...

quoted 3 lines Not that there's anything wrong with insane Sqpshr

>> Not that there's anything wrong with insane Sqpshr >> percussion--but sometimes I like the relative simplicity of a well produced >> "formulaic" jungle track, like a Goldie or a No U-Turn.

I kind of know what you mean. I tend to prefer more straight ahead jungle most of the time, compared to Mr Jenkisons stuff (although not the particular artists you mention), but only because his albums are so disjointed. Both 'Feed Me..' and 'Hard Normal Daddy' are good albums, but neither begins to sound right as an LP until you've heard it a great many times (something which takes a while, as they are not LPs I for one, want to listen to that often). But then Squarepusher is working within the album environment a great deal more than most 'proper' jungle artists and thus tends to expose a common problem that has not yet been satisfactorily dealt with within jungle. That is, how to make this music work in an album format. I think, to a certain extent, IDM is one of the few dance based genres to have produced good albums. House music has not produced very many amazing albums, and likewise neither has a lot of techno (although techno/IDM seem to overlap quite a lot). The best LP music is usually that which has it's roots in one genre but is not afraid to explore others or create totally new ones.

quoted 6 lines I really like the

> I really like the >> Autechre i have because their fractured melodies and repetitive beats touch >> me in a way mu-ziq's banal synth thingies don't (not that I don't like them, >> they're just obviously cheesy and seem a counterpoint to his drums rather >> than anything that could stand alone, plus they get sickening after too long >> a sitting).

Totally agree on this point. Autechre music, despite the harshness of some of the sounds, is constructed in such a way as to be unobtrousive and rarely grates on the ears. Mike P's synths really grate a lot nowadays, and I still think he, in some ways, is a lot like Orbital in that nothing he has produced since Tango N Vectif (for them, the Brown Album) has really been any good. Orbital's Brown Album (for me) is their crowning glory, but I think it differs for people depending on which LP they first heard by them (or Mike P). Once you have heard 'their sound' (Orbital, Mike P and others) any subsequent LPs that do not stray massively from the formula tend to sound so very tired and staid, and you always want to turn them off before they reach their conclusion. Autechre rarely have me doing this, but I can't really say for sure why this is, because their 'sound' hasn't progressed that much further than these artists (although the progression in each LP is distinctly audiable).

quoted 2 lines I like Orbital-maybe I have a soft spot because they were an

>> I like Orbital-maybe I have a soft spot because they were an >> early techno exposure for me,

*

quoted 2 lines but their melody, their simplicity sometimes

>> but their melody, their simplicity sometimes >> just works for me.

* This is what I mean. I think it depends on when you were exposed to their sound and under what circumstances.

quoted 4 lines This is quite an odd opinion you have. AFX is my favorite because I find

>This is quite an odd opinion you have. AFX is my favorite because I find >his music so emotional. Listen to pancake lizard, hedphelym. If you have >i care, though, and can't feel it, we must have two very different >psychologies.

My opinion on all this is probably somewhere inbetween. I Care Because You Do doesn't work for me as an album, but some of the tracks on it - the first couple, alberto balsalm and a few others - are excellent. I think the problem here is the way he uses old and new tracks together on one LP. Come On You Slags and Start As You Mean To Go On are decent enough clanging techno things but don't (IMO) belong on this LP. They are too old and seem stuck in his 'old' (and to me, fairly boring) ravey hardcore-techno sound of the Digeridoo/Classics era. Likewise the final track, Mookid, is basically the same droneathon he uses to conclude the Surfing On Sine Waves, which just ends up being unimaginative.

quoted 2 lines I've always thought that surfing on sine waves was his

> I've always thought that surfing on sine waves was his > coldest album. It's also his most straight ahead.

Straight ahead as in danceable, I suppose, but there's some fucked up shit on this album. Listened to this today for the first time in a while and loved it. Very original in it's field of danceable techno...

quoted 3 lines I doubt that AFX doesn't care about his music. I don't think he ever said

> I doubt that AFX doesn't care about his music. I don't think he ever said > he doesn't, either. Hates live shows, putting together albums, hates > having to do these things in order to make a living, maybe.

I'd have to agree here. He says that making music is a chore, but surely that's because he wants to make music that he likes and that lives up to his expectations. Making boring simplistic music would be less of a chore than the more complex stuff he is doing now. Plus, all in all, this is load of interview bullshit anyway...

quoted 2 lines The exact examples you 2 bring up: orbital, goldie- these are 2 examples

> The exact examples you 2 bring up: orbital, goldie- these are 2 examples > I'd use to typify soulless music.

Nothing but agreement here too. Same for the No U-Turn posse. People on this list have been praising the Torque compilation over what they've heard of Roni Size's output (probably just New Forms, which is a shame as the man and the Reprazent crew have done so much more). I think Roni's output has been nothing if not versatile. His music is fairly typical of jungle in it's sub-genres, but he innovates in each one, and every track he makes does not sound the same. He does a wide variety of styles extremely well, and I think this is his strongpoint, whereas No U-Turn just give people one sound to latch on to, and a very very very formulaic one at that (although some tracks are absolutely wicked (Technology and the remix, and that thing off prototype years called Locust). Torque as an album I think it is absolutely unremittingly boring. I heard the of it mix CD and after 45 minutes I just wanted to die. This is probably the desired effect, but I have never much cared for music that tries to pummel you into submission just for the sake of it (inc industrial stuff). I think all this 'hide behind the sofa, here comes a hoover noise' jungle has to stop and move on, and the sooner the better. There's some great techno-esque jungle coming out (DJ Krust's stuff and Swifts forthcoming tune) that isn't at all formula - I just wish there was more of it...

quoted 2 lines When your style sounds so much like

> When your style sounds so much like > anybody else's,

or even artists own past work, as I was trying to say at the beginning...

quoted 2 lines at least to me, whatever gut the music has seems

> at least to me, whatever gut the music has seems > insincere.

Yeah, exactly. This is what sums up what I was saying about the RDJ album. It's wicked because the music is almost entirely his own. If you've heard a sound before it does tend to detract from the soul/emotion or whatever you want to call it, of the music.

quoted 3 lines They did what they think they're supposed to do to make a

> They did what they think they're supposed to do to make a > track with some feeling rather than just making the track and letting the > feeling take care of itself.

Again, spot on. This example sounds to me like what Mike P, Autechre, No-U Turn etc do, and not Autechre, some of RDJs work and Roni Size and crew. But I suppose this is just another way of trying to justify the music I like. Either way, it's what I feel about the music... Um, bit of a rambler this post. Hope anyone who read it managed to get some sense out of it... Gb.

In which Graham loses the plot:

quoted 2 lines [The] Richard D James album is where Aphex shows the rest of the IDM lot how

> [The] Richard D James album is where Aphex shows the rest of the IDM lot how > an LP is really done.

Yes, intersperse some great tracks with wank noodle-abouts, a total uneven affair, that's the way to show those boys

quoted 3 lines I think the RDJ album transcends its sillyness and becomes something

> I think the RDJ album transcends its sillyness and becomes something > utterly different after you've heard it a few times. It is not gimmicky, > it's just great original music which justifies the hype.

Nah mate, it's still an uneven collection of tracks for the most part, not cohesive or coherent on the whole, doesn't compare to Analogue Bubblebath 3 (66% More Bubbles) as far as that department goes

quoted 10 lines But there is somthing to be said for the "soul" of a

>>>> But there is somthing to be said for the "soul" of a >>>> piece of music, and Orbital has it in spades. >>> >>> I'd have to agree to an extent. The only RDJ I own is ICBYD, and while I >>> like it, it's not an album I really feel. Maybe that album is an anomaly, >>> but much IDMish musik has a tendency to be overly intellectualized, and in >>> the process it leaves behind emotional content and a sweet >>> simplicity/directness. > > For starters, I don't really believe all this crap about music having soul.

HAHAHAHAHA ... let's forward this to the 313 list shall we?

quoted 5 lines This may offend some people, but the only things that matter are

> This may offend some people, but the only things that matter are > diversity and originality. This is what forms so called emotion or soul > in music (for me). When artists excel at these two, the music becomes > soulful. It's certainly not some kind of magical force or channel of > emotions into music or anything like that ...

You've lost it mate, like Otto said, it can either be that which causes a shiver to go down your spine (personally, I can throw a fair number of tracks into this bin, Joy Division's "Dead Souls" and "Atmosphere" for starters, last track on "Bluff Limbo" and Reload's "Event Horizon" as well, all of 'em provoke involuntary full-body shivers, that's what it's all about), or something which just drips hot buttered soul (re-read the Subject: line)

quoted 3 lines I really like the

>> I really like the >>> Autechre i have because their fractured melodies and repetitive beats touch >>> me in a way mu-ziq's banal synth thingies don't (not that I don't like

them,

quoted 2 lines they're just obviously cheesy and seem a counterpoint to his drums rather

>>> they're just obviously cheesy and seem a counterpoint to his drums rather >>> than anything that could stand alone, plus they get sickening after too

long

quoted 8 lines a sitting).

>>> a sitting). > > Totally agree on this point. Autechre music, despite the harshness of > some of the sounds, is constructed in such a way as to be unobtrousive > and rarely grates on the ears. Mike P's synths really grate a lot > nowadays, and I still think he, in some ways, is a lot like Orbital in > that nothing he has produced since Tango N' Vectif (for them, the Brown > Album) has really been any good.

You're mad, "Bluff Limbo" is the dog's bollocks

quoted 6 lines Orbital's Brown Album (for me) is their

> Orbital's Brown Album (for me) is their > crowning glory, but I think it differs for people depending on which LP > they first heard by them (or Mike P). Once you have heard 'their sound' > (Orbital, Mike P and others) any subsequent LPs that do not stray > massively from the formula tend to sound so very tired and staid, and > you always want to turn them off before they reach their conclusion.

Don't agree at all, I enjoy "In Pine Effect" and "Lunatic Harness" quite a bit and I liked a fair bit of "Makesaracquet"

quoted 4 lines Autechre rarely have me doing this, but I can't really say for sure why

> Autechre rarely have me doing this, but I can't really say for sure why > this is, because their 'sound' hasn't progressed that much further than > these artists (although the progression in each LP is distinctly > audiable).

Don't agree again, I think "Tri Repetae" is as much a leap forward for Ae over the first 2 albums as, say, Talking Heads' "Fear of Music" was a leap forward from their first two (People Under 30 Not Expected To Understand This)

quoted 13 lines This is quite an odd opinion you have. AFX is my favorite because I find

>> This is quite an odd opinion you have. AFX is my favorite because I find >> his music so emotional. Listen to pancake lizard, hedphelym. If you have >> I care, though, and can't feel it, we must have two very different >> psychologies. > > My opinion on all this is probably somewhere inbetween. I Care Because > You Do doesn't work for me as an album, but some of the tracks on it - > the first couple, Alberto Balsalm and a few others - are excellent. I > think the problem here is the way he uses old and new tracks together on > one LP. Come On You Slags and Start As You Mean To Go On are decent > enough clanging Techno things but don't (IMO) belong on this LP. They > are too old and seem stuck in his 'old' (and to me, fairly boring) ravey > hardcore-Techno sound of the Digeridoo/Classics era.

"Fairly boring"? You must not have that historical context, that's the stuff that defined him as being apart from the rest at the time ... I don't know what you were listening to in '91-'92 but this stuff was just so far ahead of the field (at least, what I was exposed to at the time; still not heard e.g. Plaid's "Mbuki Mvuki") it wasn't even funny And as far as I'm concerned "Start As You Mean To Go On" blows the rest into the weeds, although I'm in the minority I'm sure (I don't belong to the "Alberto Balsalm is total godhead" posse).

quoted 16 lines The exact examples you 2 bring up: Orbital, Goldie - these are 2 examples

>> The exact examples you 2 bring up: Orbital, Goldie - these are 2 examples >> I'd use to typify soulless music. > > Nothing but agreement here too. Same for the No U-Turn posse. People on > this list have been praising the Torque compilation over what they've > heard of Roni Size's output (probably just New Forms, which is a shame > as the man and the Reprazent crew have done so much more). I think > Roni's output has been nothing if not versatile. His music is fairly > typical of Jungle in its sub-genres, but he innovates in each one, and > every track he makes does not sound the same. He does a wide variety of > styles extremely well, and I think this is his strong point, whereas No > U-Turn just give people one sound to latch on to, and a very very very > formulaic one at that (although some tracks are absolutely wicked - > Technology and the remix, and that thing off prototype years called > Locust). Torque as an album I think it is absolutely unremittingly > boring. I heard the mix CD and after 45 minutes I just wanted to die.

I agree that there's a definable sound to No U-Turn but there's enough variation in "Torque" that it never bores me, maybe because I think it's all wicked ...

quoted 3 lines This is probably the desired effect, but I have never much cared

> This is probably the desired effect, but I have never much cared > for music that tries to pummel you into submission just for the sake of > it (inc. Industrial stuff).

This explains a lot, I call it "intensity", you call it "pummel into submission"

quoted 4 lines Yeah, exactly. This is what sums up what I was saying about the RDJ

> Yeah, exactly. This is what sums up what I was saying about the RDJ > album. It's wicked because the music is almost entirely his own. If > you've heard a sound before it does tend to detract from the > soul/emotion or whatever you want to call it, of the music.

Point one, if you don't think parts of "Richard D. James" are unquestionably identifiably RDJ (i.e. "you've heard a sound before") then I disagree; point two, how often can you honestly say that you've heard a completely original album, things like "Tango N' Vectif" or "A Collection of Short Stories" or (to a lesser extent) "Public Energy #1" don't get released every day.

quoted 2 lines Um, bit of a rambler this post. Hope anyone who read it managed to get

> Um, bit of a rambler this post. Hope anyone who read it managed to get > some sense out of it ...

You rate the "RDJ" album, and prefer Roni Size over No U-Turn. Says it all for me really ... - Greg

At 02:19 AM 10/20/97 +0100, lwtcdi wrote:

quoted 8 lines For starters, I don't really believe all this crap about music having

> >For starters, I don't really believe all this crap about music having >soul. This may offend some people, but the only things that matter are >diversity and originality. This is what forms so called emotion or soul >in music (for me). When artists excel at these two, the music becomes >soulful. It's certainly not some kind of magical force or channel of >emotions into music or anything like that... >

you start off by saying you don't believe that "crap about music having a soul" and then go on to define exactly what makes music soulful. care to explain? ------------------------------------------------- wells oliver : s0ewoliv@titan.vcu.edu "perhaps all pleasure is relief" : w.s.b. -------------------------------------------------

quoted 6 lines I think, to a certain extent, IDM is one of the

>I think, to a certain extent, IDM is one of the >few dance based genres to have produced good albums. House music has not >produced very many amazing albums, and likewise neither has a lot of >techno (although techno/IDM seem to overlap quite a lot). The best LP >music is usually that which has it's roots in one genre but is not >afraid to explore others or create totally new ones.

I think if IDM were a radio format, it'd be called album-oriented techno (if they hadn't already settled on electronica). I think that much of the same dynamic is at work separating IDM from the more traditional forms of house and techno that separated e.g. Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd from e.g. Jerry Lee Lewis and Chuck Berry. ("Yuck! How can you say Aphex is like Robert Plant, he's all old and nasty and stuff!") C. -- Chris.Hilker (cspot@hyperreal.org) "Sex is the darndest nougat murder, something something e-mail something something la la la la beable beable trousers and dingaling nougat..."

Graham/lwtcdi wrote a lot of things that made good sense, but lost it here:

quoted 2 lines For starters, I don't really believe all this crap about music having

>> For starters, I don't really believe all this crap about music having >> soul. This may offend some people,

quoted 3 lines Don't worry, I'll take the bait.

>Don't worry, I'll take the bait. >BTW, people who have seen "Dead Poets Society" will notice a striking >similarity in this discussion (hence the subject title).

quoted 5 lines but the only things that matter are

>> but the only things that matter are >> diversity and originality. This is what forms so called emotion or soul >> in music (for me). When artists excel at these two, the music becomes >> soulful. It's certainly not some kind of magical force or channel of >> emotions into music or anything like that...

quoted 4 lines *sigh*

>*sigh* >See, that's precisely what you get from overanalyzing and >intellectualizing the music (the chin-stroking syndrome, anyone?). >The main purpose of music is to *express* emotion,

Hmmm. Still considering this one...

quoted 1 line to *provoke* emotion.

> to *provoke* emotion.

Yeah, definately. I totally agree with this. Records do provoke emotion. I think this is the perfect way to desribe it. But I don't know that the emotion/soul put in to the music is neccessarily equal to that gotten out of it (not that you said it was, just pondering the idea)

quoted 5 lines Emotion is not something that can be rationalized in

>Emotion is not something that can be rationalized in >terms of diversity and originality. Oh yeah, this track has 79% >diversity and 91% originality, so now I can calculate it's >emotion. Exaggarated as this may sound, this *is* what you're saying >basically.

Yeah. You're right, of course. Sorry, I was talking a load of bullshit again. Music does stem from emotion, of course and I was stupid to believe otherwise. If you check my other post on this subject, you may be able to see what I was getting at. Sometimes I get a bit fed up of this lofty assumption that the 'artist' is a highly emotional being who channels their feelings into the music and gives it out to the masses like Jesus feeding the five thousand with a few loaves of bread. But I suppose over rationalising it is just as dumb too.

quoted 2 lines Emotion is about FEELING! Have you never been nearly moved to tears

>Emotion is about FEELING! Have you never been nearly moved to tears >by a track?

Yeah...nearly. Strangely enough it was Wagon Christ's 'Reedin'. Don't know why, but it truly is a beautiful piece of music. Does depend a lot on how you're feeling when you hear it though, but music can tip emotions over the edge... Other IDMers, I await your blubbing top tens with baited breath...

quoted 2 lines Have you never felt shivers down your spine when hearing

>Have you never felt shivers down your spine when hearing >certain intros ?

Again, a resounding yes! Been listening to Bjork's Homogenic LP a lot since buying it after the mass discussions on this list. I think it's an amazing album which lives up to the potential and hype that her music has been given since the outside (I own the previous 2 LPs but don't listen to them much). Never has a voice gone together so well with music that I can remember. And the music is great - traditional instruments such as string accordian etc vs electronic beats and noises, and significantly (despite a lot of it being produced by Mark Bell) it rips the tits off LFO's boring and emotionless Advance LP. If you've been thinking off getting this, but were put off by some of the negative postings...go buy it! And to those of you who want to take me to task on this one, well go ahead... I won't be able to flame you 'cos I'll be getting in touch with my femenine side...

quoted 1 line THAT'S emotion! THAT'S soul!

>THAT'S emotion! THAT'S soul!

Yeah brother! Right on... I've seen the light! Gb.

On 21 Oct 97, lwtcdi wrote: [ Bjork / homogenic (again!!!) ]

quoted 2 lines Never has a voice gone together so well with music that

> Never has a voice gone together so well with music that > I can remember. And the music is great

Hmmm - sorry to disagree but that voice grates like fingernails down a blackboard. YES the music *is* great and... I am yet to do this, but I think I'll play the thing through a ProLogic system and pull the levels on the centre right down to phase out the vocals and see what happens. I can actually loop the track "Joga" over and over a few times and it is chillingly goosebumpy, but for the rest, even though it has a short running time (what? something like 43 minutes total?) it's just TOO much of that voice swooping and diving doing my head in. As for IDM music that touches you in a special place... Squarepusher's Beep Street just does something for me. No, it's not a tear jerky emotion - more an elation that goes beyond clarity; it's like all the bits and pieces falling into place. Allright, I'll shut up now! I * "Incomplete without surface noise" - Autechre