IDM Mailing Archive

Agreed. This guy's dis of squarepusher as being "not part of a scene" undermines his other arguments, as does his glowing reviews of Prodigy and chems elsewhere on his site. I don't want to be part of some kind of life-stance, and that's what I like about plug/squarepusher/even aphex. I would rarely dance to this stuff, but it is great listening. This guy likes being part of a mass party event with music as the manipulator, a non-cerebral surrender to a "vibe". This is sometimes cool, but not always. His writing technique is quite good, and his points about most things are generally on the mark. I think he just has a taste problem with "drill-and-bass", which probably has to do with his urgent need to party. Hey, I respect that. It's much better review writing than most stuff I read, and that alone makes it a valuable site, even if I disagree with him a bit about his tastes. -CF

quoted 88 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: idm-owner@hyperreal.com [SMTP:idm-owner@hyperreal.com] On Behalf > Of Styrolene vaT > Sent: Monday, March 31, 1997 10:31 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.com > Cc: jpress@cis.compuserve.com > Subject: (idm) most overated artists of 1996? > > Yeah Generally Simons got the right idea IMO, Bukem FSOL and Mo Wax > undeniably > suck these days, I kinda respect his prose, i also think its fairly > tongue > in cheek which is cool... we all enjoy net antagonism. However his > list > of favourites is also pretty embarrasing, however id still rather have > to listen > to Mokum than those wankers/old men FSOL. > > However im pretty uncertain about this bit: > > > It is only Squarepusher/Plug etc's distance from the scene that > allows them to > > convolute the breakbeats beyond any use-value to DJ or dancer; the > wilful > > incongruity of the samples is all well and good, but if junglists > use the same > > old gangsta/cyberpunk soundbites and apocalyptic textures, it's > because they're > > trying to create and sustain a vibe, a feeling-full and meaningful > mood that > > crystallises a certain kind of worldview and life-stance. > > huh? i think hes missing the point here a little, i dont really think > Tom J or > Luke V are generally thinking of 'the dancer' when they compose > tracks! unlike the > 'junglists' i think they are writing the music for themselves, not to > propagate > some 'scene'. I really dont understand how you can condone artists who > simply use the > same samples over and over again just because theyve managed to cobble > together some > sort of tired identity?! I think more and more every day that London > is a place to visit > often but not to live in, these comments do nothing to dissuade me > from this. > > > By comparison, drill > > and bass is vibe-less non-sense. The drill and bass/"fungle" concept > seems to exist > > to make a certain sort of "margin-walker" feel okay about not really > having engaged > > with jungle as a subculture. > > Engaged with Jungle as a subculture? oh dear... what about people like > myself who > bought some DJ Krust, photek, Metalheads and Reinforced three years > ago because it > sounded pretty interesting and a bit more radical from the > Techno/electronica that was > around at the time... i tried to 'engage with Jungle as a subculture' > if you like ;) > however all these artists are producing records which sound identical > to the ones > i already own, theres zero Progression there. > > > And of course, as with most soi disant progressive > > iniatives, drill and bass is utterly parasitic on its populist > counterpart--do you > > really think the idea of chopping up breakbeats would have > independently occurred > > to the weirdy-beardy technoids in a million years? > > Yep... i reckon that the interest in breaks in most of the 'drill and > bass' > artists stems just as much from an early interest in Hip Hop rather > than > Jungle. Theres no denying that the way they use say the Amen Break is > Influenced > by Junglists, but i think the way in which theyve taken it shows that > theyve > had a much broader set of Influences/references than yer average > Junglist... > oops ive Stereotyped again... > > kF > > can i stop using the phrase 'drill and bass' now pleeeeasee...

A friend of mine wants to sell his copies of Black Dog - Temple of Transparent Balls and Spanners. I thought that the vinyl versions might be out of print. If anybody wants them email back, I don't know what price he wants to sell them for. Cheers William Samuels

from http://members.aol.com/blissout/sr1.htm: Both mashing up hip hop and techno and turning it into something like punk rock. 'Firestarter' has got to be the most radical UK number one hit this decade--reminds me of the Young Gods! And is that a sample of T.Rex's "Solid Gold Easy Action" in there? ------ do i really need to say anything? Most radical uk number one in ten years? what? the best thing to come out of the uk in ten years is firestarter? My god. Prodigy punk? evidently he has never listened to the dead kennedys or black flag or even the sex pistols. Hell the closest thing to punk rock in the electronic genre is ATR. Even, if this guy has good arguments later on he completely discredits himself by saying this kinda garbage. did this guy get a free promo of firestarter or something? perhaps he had to pay for dead cities and because of that hated it. This guy is not about music. And that crap about laswell not being a great artist.... geesh cohesive my ass...

quoted 2 lines A friend of mine wants to sell his copies of Black Dog -

> A friend of mine wants to sell his copies of Black Dog - > Temple of Transparent Balls and Spanners.

heh, i'll bet he's taped them too.. The Little Runt. -- + . /\___/\ . * | < The Black Dog > | + * . . * . . * (. .) + | | . * . * + ___ooO__\-/__Ooo___ | | + + + + . /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ | Dogma >> | http://www.feedback.com/tbd/ * 3-5-3 * (Dis)information > | tbd@feedback.com

Black Dog Droid writes: > > A friend of mine wants to sell his copies of Black Dog - > > Temple of Transparent Balls and Spanners. > > heh, i'll bet he's taped them too.. > The Little Runt. tape? how 80's. we use recordable CDs here in the 90's, man. -j-

quoted 1 line tape? how 80's. we use recordable CDs here in the 90's, man.

> tape? how 80's. we use recordable CDs here in the 90's, man.

heh, only if you're billy bigbucks! -- + . /\___/\ . * | < The Black Dog > | + * . . * . . * (. .) + | | . * . * + ___ooO__\-/__Ooo___ | | + + + + . /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ | Dogma >> | http://www.feedback.com/tbd/ * 3-5-3 * (Dis)information > | tbd@feedback.com

hey - it's cat amongst the pigeons time folks check out this page http://members.aol.com/blissout/sr2.htm part of wire/melody maker/village voice journo simon reynolds site, i've long admired his vitriolic columns in said mags its basically an article on his most overrated artists / releases of 1996 list includes squarepusher , future sound of london , ltj bukem , mo wax , innerzone orchestra , pressure sounds , bill laswell , breakbeat science.. simon makes his points intelligently and with cohesion will you? sm@4thworld http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/4thworld/ check the 'propoganda' page - interviews + features on black dog/ as one/ musik aus strom / jimpster / compost / irdial + more

quoted 4 lines

> http://members.aol.com/blissout/sr2.htm > > Part of Wire/Melody Maker/Village Voice journo Simon Reynolds' site, > it's basically an article on his most overrated artists / releases of 1996

To be fair, you should have mentioned .../sr1.htm, which is his favorites from 1996. Puts things in quite a different perspective.

quoted 1 line Simon makes his points intelligently and with cohesion

> Simon makes his points intelligently and with cohesion

Hardly.

quoted 1 line Will you?

> Will you?

Well, I'll try: Anybody who claims that FSOL "merely transferred the prog-rock notion of ostentatious virtuosity to sample-based music" while meanwhile praising Mokum-style Gabber (cf. sr1.htm) clearly has his head wedged a bit too far up his arse. He claims "Maybe Fabio and Grooverider did drop ``Bug In The Bassbin'' down at Rage, legendarily pitched up to 45 rpm - but the idea that the track was a seminal and formative influence on the nascent Jungle sound is preposterous." Well gee, I remember reading that Goldie said it was a seminal and formative influence. Now who am I gonna believe, somebody actually *making* the music and in the middle of it, or a journalist??? The fact that his favorites from '96 are 95% Drum n' Bass or Gabber (!) pretty much says it all, in my book. The problem with Reynolds - like most music journos - is that the music world is not Black or White, not Good or Bad. 12 years and 500,000+ postings about music to Usenet newsgroups and mailing lists that I've read has firmly disavowed me of that notion. Unfortunately it hasn't yet occured to Reynolds. I like FSOL. I like "Bug In The Bassbin". I like "Headz 2A"/"Headz 2B". No amount of blathering by Reynolds or anyone else is going to change this. Ultimately it's still a matter of taste and how your neurons fire in response to sonic input, and it's clear Reynolds' neurons fire differently than mine in some ways, and similarly in others. C'est la guerre ... Oh, and his Web site's crap (gee, nice background, shame you can't actually *read* anything unless you click-drag to highlight all the text with a sane background) and his "The Sex Revolts" book snippets are a hoot - a totally ridiculous topic (Genderification in Rock - yawn) in a field no one cares about anymore (Rock). Do I win? - Greg

Yeah Generally Simons got the right idea IMO, Bukem FSOL and Mo Wax undeniably suck these days, I kinda respect his prose, i also think its fairly tongue in cheek which is cool... we all enjoy net antagonism. However his list of favourites is also pretty embarrasing, however id still rather have to listen to Mokum than those wankers/old men FSOL. However im pretty uncertain about this bit:

quoted 6 lines It is only Squarepusher/Plug etc's distance from the scene that allows them to

> It is only Squarepusher/Plug etc's distance from the scene that allows them to > convolute the breakbeats beyond any use-value to DJ or dancer; the wilful > incongruity of the samples is all well and good, but if junglists use the same > old gangsta/cyberpunk soundbites and apocalyptic textures, it's because they're > trying to create and sustain a vibe, a feeling-full and meaningful mood that > crystallises a certain kind of worldview and life-stance.

huh? i think hes missing the point here a little, i dont really think Tom J or Luke V are generally thinking of 'the dancer' when they compose tracks! unlike the 'junglists' i think they are writing the music for themselves, not to propagate some 'scene'. I really dont understand how you can condone artists who simply use the same samples over and over again just because theyve managed to cobble together some sort of tired identity?! I think more and more every day that London is a place to visit often but not to live in, these comments do nothing to dissuade me from this.

quoted 4 lines By comparison, drill

> By comparison, drill > and bass is vibe-less non-sense. The drill and bass/"fungle" concept seems to exist > to make a certain sort of "margin-walker" feel okay about not really having engaged > with jungle as a subculture.

Engaged with Jungle as a subculture? oh dear... what about people like myself who bought some DJ Krust, photek, Metalheads and Reinforced three years ago because it sounded pretty interesting and a bit more radical from the Techno/electronica that was around at the time... i tried to 'engage with Jungle as a subculture' if you like ;) however all these artists are producing records which sound identical to the ones i already own, theres zero Progression there.

quoted 4 lines And of course, as with most soi disant progressive

> And of course, as with most soi disant progressive > iniatives, drill and bass is utterly parasitic on its populist counterpart--do you > really think the idea of chopping up breakbeats would have independently occurred > to the weirdy-beardy technoids in a million years?

Yep... i reckon that the interest in breaks in most of the 'drill and bass' artists stems just as much from an early interest in Hip Hop rather than Jungle. Theres no denying that the way they use say the Amen Break is Influenced by Junglists, but i think the way in which theyve taken it shows that theyve had a much broader set of Influences/references than yer average Junglist... oops ive Stereotyped again... kF can i stop using the phrase 'drill and bass' now pleeeeasee...