IDM Mailing Archive

I reckon Carl's title to be more an homage to The Undertones' "More Songs About Chocolate and Girls" meself. Foo/Chocolate, Girls/Revolutionary Art, heh Anyway, Carl Craig is the motherfuckin' bomb, better than 99% of the stuff discussed on this list, and of all the live/"live" Techno acts I've seen in the last 6 years only RDJ was in the same league as Carl. 'Nuff said. - Greg A Yank who has met Carl and knows damn well who he is :)

Greg Earle wrote:

quoted 3 lines Anyway, Carl Craig is the motherfuckin' bomb, better than 99% of the stuff

>Anyway, Carl Craig is the motherfuckin' bomb, better than 99% of the stuff >discussed on this list, and of all the live/"live" Techno acts I've seen in >the last 6 years only RDJ was in the same league as Carl. 'Nuff said.

Why? say something about the music. why is carl craig's music any better? personally i think both Carl Craig & RDJ (particularly his venture into d&b) are hyped to mythic proportions & without much discussion of what it is about the music that makes it better than other techno. I did listen to Psyche & thought one track was excellent, but the rest i found monotonous & dated. I expect I will be saying the same thing about "RDJ" in 10 years (whereas I expect to be still listening to Ambient Works II in 10 years). Carl's remixes of "God" were one of the few remixes he did that I thought were good. Most of his remixes are rather monotonous (S'Express, Tek 9) & didn't improve any over the original, whereas i've found many of RDJ's reworkings intriguing (Gavin Bryars, Curve, Jesus Jones, Gentle People) & a few to be crap. Personally I find much more 70s funk & disco (Giorgio Moroder, Bohannon, Space, Gino Soccio), 80s synth pop & electro (Kraftwerk, "Set it Off," DXT, Yello) & late 80s/early 90s (Inner City/Reese Project, 2 Puerto Ricans & a Blackman, Jomanda...) house to be more compelling than any of the late 80s Detroit Techno (or the early 90s UK/Belgian techno for that matter)........I've always considered (i.e. Derrick May & Carl Craig) the beats to be monotonous & the synths to not hold up to the test of time. They don't compel me to go out and dance & they aren't interesting enough to listen to while nesting at home...... Can anyone say anything about the music that makes it so great?

quoted 5 lines Using complex beats has never seemed to be real concern with a lot of the

>Using complex beats has never seemed to be real concern with a lot of the >Detroit crew, it's like they know than can do it, but would rather focus >on the emotional essence of the track, something which is missing from so >much of 4/4 techno. (Pick any Kenny Larkin release for intricate >drum machining)

Isn't this the essence of Detroit techno? The concept of fusing soul into soulless machines?

quoted 1 line I love Detroit,

>I love Detroit,

I've been to Detroit twice. The teeming city + the relentless music = American musical heaven. grant.h.horne http://delta.is.tcu.edu/~ghhorne/

quoted 2 lines - Greg

> - Greg > A Yank who has met Carl and knows damn well who he is :)

Yeah Respect to you :) -- *********************************** * Chris Morris For Prime Minister * ***********************************

On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 19:53:20 -0800 (PST), Christopher William Niemitz <niemitz@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:

quoted 5 lines I've always considered (i.e. Derrick May & Carl

>I've always considered (i.e. Derrick May & Carl >Craig) the beats to be monotonous & the synths to not hold up to the test >of time. They don't compel me to go out and dance & they aren't >interesting enough to listen to while nesting at home...... >Can anyone say anything about the music that makes it so great?

The soul, the feeling that's been put into it. It's no coincidence that techno is sometimes described as 'machine soul' or that Eddie Flashin Fowlkes has an album out called 'Technosoul'. Detroit techno is as much about emotions and feelings as it is about dancing and for me it usually is the perfect fusion between the two: a track that sends shivers down your spine with its beauty while you're going totally nuts on the dancefloor. But then again, if you've listened to the EPs and albums that were recommended, gave them some time to sink in and you *still* don't like Carl Craig, then his music simply isn't for you, that's life. I have the same with RDJ, I gave it a good listen and I personally think 95% of his work is crap. Yet other people worship him. Different people, different tastes. "Your mileage may vary" Otto

tom sez:

quoted 9 lines For a great carl craig remix, check out his remix of spacetime's Kairo on

> For a great carl craig remix, check out his remix of spacetime's Kairo on > remit recaps. While the truly beautiful original kairo is hardly anymore > recognizable in the remix, it's still a slammin' detroit track with > relaxed, warm synths that is no way monotonous. > raig remix, check out his remix of spacetime's Kairo on > remit recaps. While the truly beautiful original kairo is hardly anymore > recognizable in the remix, it's still a slammin' detroit track with > relaxed, warm synths that is no way monotonous. >

I was going to bring this remix up when this thread started, but I haven't had a chance. When I first heard Carl's remix of Kairo, I was blown away...He took a really great song, stripped out all the good parts, threw 'em in the trash, added a lame 'dunk, dunk, dunk, dunk' beat and some boring synth pads. Hardly a innovative remix (or song for that matter)...quite unlike the subtropic remix, which retains ALL of the killer bits, chops the fuck out the beat, stirs in a few goofy samples and comes out funky as hell! But as we all know, differen't strokes for different folks. I'm not a big detroit fan, but I did buy the PSYCH/BFE thing because I was curious what all the hype about Carl Craig was. I wasn't very impressed, as I've never been with any of his remix work. But I must say that one of his releases (I think it's him anyway) that I do like and recommend is one of those '69' singles that was reissued not to long ago. I can't remember the title or the tracks but it's good, funky stuff. I'll try to find it later, but I'm sure all you CC heads know which one I'm talking about. word to the mothership, brockout. np: Panacea - 'Low Profile Darkness' wow!

At 18.56 27.3.1997 -0800, you wrote:

quoted 4 lines say that one of his releases (I think it's him anyway) that I do like

>say that one of his releases (I think it's him anyway) that I do like >and recommend is one of those '69' singles that was reissued not to long >ago. I can't remember the title or the tracks but it's good, funky >stuff.

these have repressed currently; 69 - four jazzfunk classics ep planet e(re-issue) 69 - lite music ep r&s (repress) talking about carl craig's music i have to mention that most of his current products are not that good as the early ones. it seems like people who really had the vibe don't own it anymore and their products are not that special..(carl craig, juan atkins, etc) i dunno are they trying to create something new(that i cannot understand) or are they just that boring that they release some shite from old dats!?! for people who are searching for the 'machine soul' that some detroit products indeed have, find rhythim is rhythim's 'strings of life' and grow up with that! (i did) peace out! antti

At 11:13 PM -0800 3/27/97, Antti Uusimaki wrote:

quoted 11 lines talking about carl craig's music i have to mention that most of his

>talking about carl craig's music i have to mention that most of his >current products are not that good as the early ones. it seems like >people who really had the vibe don't own it anymore and their products >are not that special..(carl craig, juan atkins, etc) i dunno are they >trying to create something new(that i cannot understand) or are they >just that boring that they release some shite from old dats!?! for people >who are searching for the 'machine soul' that some detroit products indeed >have, find rhythim is rhythim's 'strings of life' and grow up with that! >(i did) peace out! > >antti

Check his remix of Incognito's "Out of the Storm" for proof that he's still got it. Downtempo brilliance. Joe (:Joe Rice:________________:ambient@netcom.com:______________:joe@ednet.net:) (:"Oh, the turntables are his instruments!" :) (:"But I can't tell what sound that record is making!" :) (:"I know! He puts them on and off and you never know! I've never seen :) (: anything like it!" :)

At 18.56 27.3.1997 -0800, you wrote:

quoted 4 lines When I first heard Carl's remix of Kairo, I was blown away...He took a

>When I first heard Carl's remix of Kairo, I was blown away...He took a >really great song, stripped out all the good parts, threw 'em in the >trash, added a lame 'dunk, dunk, dunk, dunk' beat and some boring synth >pads.

i agree.. this remix is absolutely crap! especially the sounds are terrible.. but i don't want to flame carl craig's genius to make remixes. people, listen all the remixes he did for kms. they are shit, not shite! and what about his remix of b.t's 'relativity'? a superb indeed.. also his remix of ultramarine's 'hooter' is superb! even mtv europe used to show a video of that one some years ago! (ok, that doesn't make a track any better, but i just had to mention it!) peace out! antti

quoted 6 lines But then again, if you've listened to the EPs and albums that were

> But then again, if you've listened to the EPs and albums that were > recommended, gave them some time to sink in and you *still* don't like > Carl Craig, then his music simply isn't for you, that's life. I have the > same with RDJ, I gave it a good listen and I personally think 95% of his > work is crap. Yet other people worship him. Different people, different > tastes.

Yeah but i love both :), so everyone out there who likes Aphex but not heard Carl should give him a good go ;) Try Kao-tic Harmony by Derrick May and Carl Craig, i cant believe anyone on this list wouldnt like that song... its like At Les but 100 times better. Has anyone heard this unreleased Carl and Derrick feller on this revolutionary art thing? kF -- *********************************** * Chris Morris For Prime Minister * *********************************** http://freespace.virgin.net/kung.funk/kf.htm

I'm partial to his remix of the Orb's "Oxbow Lakes" from a few years back; there's this chunky break in the middle section running behind the central piano riff that makes me shake my head every time I hear it. My feelings about the Tori Amos mixes are on the record at http://www.mich.com/~marmoset/freeke-7.html#rev12 so I won't go into them here. I will say that it's probably dangerous to judge a remixer's talents (or lack thereof) on a remix done for a well-known artist on a big label, as such labels often reject more adventurous remixes in favor of safer, clubbier ones. Brock Suter said: : But I must say that one of his releases (I think it's him : anyway) that I do like and recommend is one of those '69' : singles that was reissued not to long : ago. I can't remember the title or the tracks : but it's good, funky stuff. _Four Jazz-Funk Classics_ = 69 (Planet E - 1991) , [recently repressed] A. Ladies & Gentlemen If Mojo Was A.M. B. My Machines Frequency Finale I won't try to sell anyone on Carl Craig here, but I'll just mention that this is probably my favorite 12" ever. -d.w. on now in my head: "Ladies & Gentlemen", "Oscillator", "Desire", "Kao-Tic Harmony", "Chicken Noodle Soup"...

At 13.25 28.3.1997 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 4 lines on now in my head:

>on now in my head: > >"Ladies & Gentlemen", "Oscillator", "Desire", "Kao-Tic Harmony", >"Chicken Noodle Soup"...

on now in my heart: "the climax", "wrap me in his arms", "at les", "icon", "elements", "neurotic behavior", "it's a shame", "crackdown", "galaxy", "suspiria", "no more words", "my machines"... carl really has done 'some' more than good traxx! maybe that is why some people called him god!?! errrmm.. for me derrick may is still the artist! peace! antti np: r-tyme - r-theme

quoted 4 lines talking about carl craig's music i have to mention that most of his

>>talking about carl craig's music i have to mention that most of his >>current products are not that good as the early ones. it seems like >>people who really had the vibe don't own it anymore and their products >>are not that special.

I've got to admit that beyond one or two tracks of his recent stuff on comps then I can't really comment *but* - Back in '92 I was buying a ton of stuff (some of which stands up now and some of which certainly doesn't) and I came across the Planet E Communications release of Innerzone Orchestra 'Bug in the Bassbin' which came as part of a double pack with the Intergalactic Beats comp. This particular release alone did change how I listened to electronic music. The comp has tracks that I melt when I hear even today (especially Stefan Robbers incarnation as 'eevo lute' - but that is only a start [and a poor bumbling fan-like one at that!]). Anyway, please forgive my homage but, for this release alone and the pleasure it has given me, Carl Craig and cohorts* are some of the only gods I worship. * Intergalactic Beats includes tracks credited to:- Future/Past (btw - how do you pronounce Degiorgio?), 69, Balil, Hanl, and Plece. Rubyjune.

I'd recommend the 69 album on R&S for examples of Carl Craig's more intense techno. The production is pretty raw, quite harsh in places, but it's a very 'live' sounding collection. 'Filter King/No highs/Finale' could have been the first example of that track filtering tweakery that appears on loads of stuff these days. To Kelley Hackett <KHACKETT@aba.iupui.edu> cc idm@hyperreal.org (bcc: Giles Ward/POCL/POSTOFFICE) Hard Copy To Hard Copy cc From William Van Loo <wdvanloo@sigma6.com> Date 14/04/99 13:48 Subject Re: (idm) New Discoveries

quoted 5 lines Although this can not be considered IDM or Ambient, but his music is

> Although this can not be considered IDM or Ambient, but his music is > Hella--can anyone tell more about John Beltran & or Carl Craig. Yes, I > know that they are placed in the Detroit Techno-vein, and perhaps > rightfully so, but some of John's Trax are stellar(and can perhaps be > cross-meshed with the two). Any info is greatly appreciated!

Carl Craig can certainly be considered "Intelligent Dance Music". I seem to end up posting this message every 3 months or so - maybe I should put together a stock "what IDMers should know about Carl Craig" message... Here's a first attempt at the "IDMers Guide To Carl Craig": Start with the Psyche/BFC compilation "Elements 1989-1990". It compiles Carl's work under the Psyche and BFC aliases, including the gems "Chicken Noodle Soup", "Neurotic Behavior", and a personal favorite, "How the West Was Won". Next, you have a couple of choices. If you buy vinyl, I'd get the Innerzone Orchestra 12" that was released on Mo Wax a couple years ago - there are a couple of different versions, the one I'd get has the original "Bug in the Bassbin" on one side, and the "jazz version" of "Bug in the Bassbin" on the flip. The jazz version features Rodney Whitaker on standup bass and Francisco Mora on percussion. If you like house music at all, get the Paperclip People compilation album "Secret Tapes of Dr. Eich". Great stuff. Should be relatively easy to find; it's on Planet E but it seems to have good distribution. The alternative to this, if you buy vinyl and/or DJ, is to get the 12"s from this album, several of which seem to be easily procured. Standouts from this album are "The Floor", "Oscillator", and "The Climax", but they're all great dance music. Finally...start saving your pennies for the new Innerzone Orchestra album "Programmed". Having only heard bits and pieces (the live set last year in Detroit, the wonderful "Manufactured Memories" on the Header2 compilation), I can only say that this has the potential to be Carl Craig's best work to date. That's saying a lot, if you know *anything* about what this guy's done. It should be out in May from what I've heard. Cheers, Bill -- Sigma6 Interactive Media / http://www.sigma6.com http://www.citydetroit.com

Anyone suggest Carl Craig's DJ-Kicks mix? It's the only DJ-Kicks i'm missing, although I'm not sure i enjoy that many of the early ones that much (But they keep getting better).

quoted 1 line Carl Craig can certainly be considered "Intelligent Dance Music".

>Carl Craig can certainly be considered "Intelligent Dance Music".

_________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/ The world's most complete Pork Recordings/Fila Brazillia site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY

giles.ward@postoffice.co.uk wrote:

quoted 6 lines I'd recommend the 69 album on R&S for examples of Carl Craig's more intense

> > I'd recommend the 69 album on R&S for examples of Carl Craig's more intense > techno. The production is pretty raw, quite harsh in places, but it's a > very 'live' sounding collection. 'Filter King/No highs/Finale' could have > been the first example of that track filtering tweakery that appears on > loads of stuff these days.

Damn! I knew I was forgetting something but couldn't put my finger on it! Thanks, Giles. The amended "Beginner's guide to Carl Craig" is below. Cheers, Bill Start with the Psyche/BFC compilation "Elements 1989-1990". It compiles Carl's work under the Psyche and BFC aliases, including the gems "Chicken Noodle Soup", "Neurotic Behavior", and a personal favorite, "How the West Was Won". Next, you have a couple of choices. - If you buy vinyl and like jazz, I'd get the Innerzone Orchestra 12" that was released on Mo Wax a couple years ago - there are a couple of different versions, the one I'd get has the original "Bug in the Bassbin" on one side, and the "jazz version" of "Bug in the Bassbin" on the flip. The jazz version features Rodney Whitaker on standup bass and Francisco Mora on percussion. - If you like house music at all, get the Paperclip People compilation album "Secret Tapes of Dr. Eich". Great stuff. Should be relatively easy to find; it's on Planet E but it seems to have good distribution. The alternative to this, if you buy vinyl and/or DJ, is to get the 12"s from this album, several of which seem to be easily procured. Standouts from this album are "The Floor", "Oscillator", and "The Climax", but they're all great dance music. - If you like techno, try to find the 69 material. There were 3 12" records released on Planet E by Carl as "69" - "4 Jazz Funk Classics", "Sound on Sound", and "Lite Music". All are incredibly worth having, but equally hard to find. Easier to get is the R&S Records release "Sound of Music", which compiles tracks from "Sound on Sound" and "Lite Music". Don't get scared off by the word "techno" - this isn't some 4-on-the-floor-909-kick-drum-with-alternating-hi-hat thing. Instead, think chopped up beats and raw funky nature. Hard to describe, and hard to stop listening to once you've gotten an earful. Then there are the remixes. The tops for me: Tori Amos "God" remix, which works a tuned tom-drum sample and vocal snippet into a killer track. the Spacetime Continuum track off "Remit Recaps" - one of the largest bass sounds I've ever heard on record, plus some of the best dance drum programming in recent years - finger snaps, perfectly placed beats, it just goes on and on. Can's "Future Days" remix (the "Blade Runner" mix) off "Sacrilege". It's a fast tempo (maybe around 135-140 BPM) track that just keeps building layer upon layer of snares, pads, vocals, and other elements, but never brings in a kick. Sublime. Finally...start saving your pennies for the new Innerzone Orchestra album "Programmed". Having only heard bits and pieces (the live set last year in Detroit, the wonderful "Manufactured Memories" on the Header2 compilation), I can only say that this has the potential to be Carl Craig's best work to date. That's saying a lot, if you know *anything* about what this guy's done. It should be out in May from what I've heard. -- Sigma6 Interactive Media / http://www.sigma6.com http://www.citydetroit.com

quoted 2 lines Tori Amos "God" remix, which works a tuned tom-drum sample and vocal snippet

>Tori Amos "God" remix, which works a tuned tom-drum sample and vocal snippet >into a killer track.

Where is this available? On a commercially released CDsingle, or do i have to go searching for some rare DJ-only 12"? Two Carl Craig remixes i really dig: Ultramarine "Hooter" and Coldcut "Rubaiyat" (although that doesn't beat Nobukazu Takemura's remix of Rubaiyat). _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/ The world's most complete Pork Recordings/Fila Brazillia site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY

At 12:50 PM 4/14/99 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 6 lines Tori Amos "God" remix, which works a tuned tom-drum sample and vocal snippet

>>Tori Amos "God" remix, which works a tuned tom-drum sample and vocal snippet >>into a killer track. > >Where is this available? On a commercially released CDsingle, or do i have >to go searching for some rare DJ-only 12"? >

I've been after the above mixes for ages and have never had any success in finding them. those tori amos trainspotters must have bought them all up first! If anybody has any leads on some please let me know.

quoted 4 lines Two Carl Craig remixes i really dig: Ultramarine "Hooter" and Coldcut

>Two Carl Craig remixes i really dig: Ultramarine "Hooter" and Coldcut >"Rubaiyat" (although that doesn't beat Nobukazu Takemura's remix of >Rubaiyat). >

A few of my favorite Carl Craig mixes are his No One Lives on Mars remix for Soft Ballet, his Out of the Storm remix for Incognito, his Kairo remix for Spacetime Continuum, and his Fantastique remix for Chris & Cosey. -->-Lance--- mclance@nacs.net lance@inaudible.com p.o. box 450715 westlake, ohio 44145 united states

On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, William Van Loo wrote:

quoted 3 lines - If you buy vinyl and like jazz, I'd get the Innerzone Orchestra 12"

> - If you buy vinyl and like jazz, I'd get the Innerzone Orchestra 12" > that was released on Mo Wax a couple years ago - there are a couple of > different versions, the one I'd get has the original "Bug in the

I believe this was a reissue of the original "Bassbin" 12". The angle I heard when Mo' Wax got its hands on it was that it was the first breakbeat 12" (1992). So it was suitably gussied up with a bunch of drum 'n bass remixes (4 Hero, Peshay), plus others (DeGiorgio, Claude Young). These were probably released in a barrage of configurations (at least one 12" and a 10" version), but the CD has everything. Unfortunately, Mo' Wax dropped the two b-sides that accompanied the Planet E issue that I have (what I believe to be a later version/pressing on clear vinyl, with "Nitwit" and "Surreal")... I'm sure one of you Detroit scholars can clear things up, but the (eventual) point being that those b-sides are certainly worth your while. -rob

At 10:22 PM 4/14/99 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 18 lines On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, William Van Loo wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, William Van Loo wrote: > >> - If you buy vinyl and like jazz, I'd get the Innerzone Orchestra 12" >> that was released on Mo Wax a couple years ago - there are a couple of >> different versions, the one I'd get has the original "Bug in the > >I believe this was a reissue of the original "Bassbin" 12". The angle I >heard when Mo' Wax got its hands on it was that it was the first breakbeat >12" (1992). So it was suitably gussied up with a bunch of drum 'n bass >remixes (4 Hero, Peshay), plus others (DeGiorgio, Claude Young). These >were probably released in a barrage of configurations (at least one 12" >and a 10" version), but the CD has everything. Unfortunately, Mo' Wax >dropped the two b-sides that accompanied the Planet E issue that I have >(what I believe to be a later version/pressing on clear vinyl, with >"Nitwit" and "Surreal")... I'm sure one of you Detroit scholars can clear >things up, but the (eventual) point being that those b-sides are certainly >worth your while. >

Actually, just being nitpicky here but the Bassbin cd on MoWax did not contain ALL the remixes from the various vinyl remix eps. The one remix it is missing is the Claude Young 31st Century Jazz mix from the 10" which is, by far, the best Bassbin remix of them all. The cd did contain another Claude Young mix but unfortunately not the 31st Century Jazz mix. Here is the skinny: . Innerzone Orchestra: Bug In The Bass Bin 12" (Planet E/PE107696SAE) A1. Original Mix B1. Jazz Mix (Carl Craig) . Innerzone Orchestra: Bug In The Bass Bin 12" (MoWax/MW049) A1. Original Mix (Carl Craig) A2. Peshays Bonus Beats (Peshay) B1. Jazz Mix (Carl Craig) . Innerzone Orchestra: Bug In The Bass Bin Remix 12" (MoWax/MW049X) A1. 4 Hero Mix A2. Peshay Mix B1. Street Mix (Carl Craig) B2. Future/Past (Kirk Degiorgio) . Innerzone Orchestra: Bug In The Bass Bin Limited 10" (MoWax/MWO49N) A. 31st Century Jazz Mix (Claude Young) (Limited to 3000 copies) . Innerzone Orchestra: Bug In The Bass Bin CD (MoWax/MW049CD) 1. Original Mix 2. Jazz Mix (Carl Craig) 3. Street Mix (Carl Craig) 4. 4 Hero Mix 5. Graphic Dub (Claude Young 6. Future/Past Mix (Kirk Degiorgio) 7. Peshay Mix . Intergalactic Bonus comp 12" (Planet E/PEVARI2) A. Innerzone Orchestra: Bug in a Bassbin B1. Nitwit B2. Surreal And there you have it. -->-Lance--- mclance@nacs.net lance@inaudible.com p.o. box 450715 westlake, ohio 44145 united states

At 12:35 AM 4/15/99 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 9 lines Actually, just being nitpicky here but the Bassbin cd

> >Actually, just being nitpicky here but the Bassbin cd >on MoWax did not contain ALL the remixes from the various >vinyl remix eps. The one remix it is missing is the Claude >Young 31st Century Jazz mix from the 10" which is, by >far, the best Bassbin remix of them all. The cd did contain >another Claude Young mix but unfortunately not the >31st Century Jazz mix. >

Actually i just noticed that the Bug in a Bassbin cd is also missing one of the Peshay mixes, Peshays Bonus Beats remix, as well. So there are two Bug remixes not on the cd. -->-Lance--- mclance@nacs.net lance@inaudible.com p.o. box 450715 westlake, ohio 44145 united states