IDM Mailing Archive

Here's some new things I've gotten at the store recently: Orbital - The Box Well what I can I say about this one? Orbital continues to test the patience of its fans who long for a glorious return to the sound and style of Orbital 2. Times Fly was a nice treat after the disapointment of Snivelisation. A good album I suppose, but how often DO YOU listen to it? Now how much did you listen to Orbital 2? See what I mean? As Orbital's music gets farther and farther away from it's trademark 'sound' and its albums become more uneven, its live shows seem to benefit. I can easily imagine enjoying hearing Orbital perfrom The Box live, but on CD...well somethings amiss. From the sounds of it, it seems Orbital have become big Portishead fans since the last ep and have watched The Third Man one too many times. Orbital have become a damn trip-hop act, there are live drums, live guitars, and live vocals. The girl from Snivelisation is fine, the man if fucking awful and makes Orbital sound like Underworld. I'm sorry friends, maybe this record will grow on me, but at the moment I'm feeling very disapointed in the brothers Hartnoll. The new organic 'live' sound they've adopted just dosen't suit their music. It worked for The Orb on their last album, but Orbital? No dice. Leave the live insturments to the people who know how to use them, like Squarepusher. Lets hope the albums better, which, by the way, is going head to head against the Caustic Window album. Lets hope Aphex sells more. Kinesthesia - Empathy Box LP Rephlex CAT 022LP A fantasic album of prime IDM from Kinesthesia. I can't recommend this highly enough. I've listened to it again and again since I bought it. Side one features slower melodic songs and side two features some nice mid-tempo beats. A lovely diversion till Aphex unleashes his next creation in a couple weeks. The album comes on white viynl with a clear plastic cover. My only complaint is that the plastic cover is too large to fit in one of those protective plastic sleeves which leaves it open to dust on one side. Synectics in The Purple Universe Rephlex CAT 006CD I found this used today when I picked up the Orbital CD. A wonderful album of mid-tempo techno with a tingle of trance and some ambience thrown in. I'm begining to think 1993 was the best year there's been for IDM fans and it won't get any better. Now if only I could find Rephlex CAT 005 (or 009 for that matter). Can anyone give me some info on the artists behind this CD and what other things they haved done? Peace out... /""'' /"'RESH Live and Direct from the G-Spot Orange County, California, USA

quoted 9 lines I'm sorry friends, maybe this record will grow on me,

>> I'm sorry friends, maybe this record will grow on me, >> but at the moment I'm feeling very disapointed in the brothers >> Hartnoll. The new organic 'live' sound they've adopted just >>dosen't suit their music. > > >I haven't got my hands on the Box yet ( my record shop guy informs >me it'll be in tomorrow ), so I can't comment here. >

Wait till you hear it and you'll be just as disapointed I'm sure. It's utterly self indulgent crap, easily the worst thing they've ever done. I listened to Snivelisation a bunch of times when it first came out trying to get a handle on it and hoping I would end up liking it more than Orbital 2 but that never happened, the album is simply too uneven. It starts out nice, then by the middle its gone astray and when they try to make ammends by the last song its too late. In my opinion Orbital still hasn't topped Halcyon. And yes, I have everything they've ever done. Oh well... /""'' /"'RESH Live and Direct from the G-Spot Orange County, California, USA

On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, dj k lmnop wrote:

quoted 2 lines Must _everyone_ dump on Orbital?

> Must _everyone_ dump on Orbital? >

I don't think _everyone_ is. Anyway I like hearing positive _and_ negative opinions about things. I just don't like hearing really subjective comments like something "is crap" or similar comments. That says nothing to me. Someone's crap is another person's treasure. If people don't like something don't be afraid to say so, but at the same time try not to use such loaded and subjective terms. Have to chime in and say that my listening enjoyment for both Orbital and the Orb releases has consistently and steadily decreased. I didn't really like Orb's Orbvus (at least compared to their earlier material) and only enjoyed half of Snivilisation. I'm one of the few who actually likes Orbital I (The US version) more than Orbital II as well. Although II _is_ great. What I'm hearing about the new Orbital doesn't sound too promising. I'll check it out though... T.

On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Julius anthony Martinez wrote:

quoted 3 lines I don't think _everyone_ is. Anyway I like hearing positive _and_

> I don't think _everyone_ is. Anyway I like hearing positive _and_ > negative opinions about things. I just don't like hearing really > subjective comments like something "is crap" or similar comments. That

Well, the thing about people giving their opinions on something is that inevitably, these opinions will be subjective. Being subjective doesn't necessarily mean saying "I love this" or "I can't stand this". Anyone giving their personal opinion on something is drawing upon their own feelings towards it to shape their explanation of what they like or don't like about it. I have been guilty of just simply stating I love Snivilisation though, and a lot of the time, it's just that simple for me. If I think about it, I can come up with some of the things I like about the album. Something I find really attractive about Sniv is what I call its fusion of emotion and technology. The emotion is most apparent in Forever, Attached, and Sad But True, and also finds its way into Kein Trink Wasser, and the third "movement" of Are We Here? (and other tracks to a lesser degree) Where the emotion is lacking provides a nice contrast, serving to highlight this emotion beautifully. Some of Sniv's tracks certainly don't hold up well on their own, but as part of the whole, I find them to work perfectly, each adding to the whole in its own way, either by providing a lot of build-up, as in Philosophy By Numbers, or rending us suddenly from this whole in Quality Seconds, before the calm of the beginning of Are We Here? Standing alone, I would not consider either of these songs good, but to me, they work perfectly within the structure of the album. It's this "interaction" between tracks, and the entire album structure, partly, that lets me appreciate this album, and I've never really been able to appreciate anything else to the same degree. These are by no means the only reasons for me liking it, they are simply what I can think of and define easily.... Yes, this is a highly subjective opinion, possibly even badly-explained, and I don't expect many people (if any at all) to share this view of the album with me, and I do expect other people to be able to come up with radically opposing views on the album. This is what I think is being subjective without just saying whether or not you like something. Is it useful to anyone but myself? I don't really know, but I would think it is at least a better read than a simple "I love snivilisation" post.

quoted 7 lines Have to chime in and say that my listening enjoyment for both Orbital

> Have to chime in and say that my listening enjoyment for both Orbital > and the Orb releases has consistently and steadily decreased. I didn't > really like Orb's Orbvus (at least compared to their earlier material) > and only enjoyed half of Snivilisation. I'm one of the few who actually > likes Orbital I (The US version) more than Orbital II as well. Although > II _is_ great. What I'm hearing about the new Orbital doesn't sound too > promising. I'll check it out though...

I kind of went the same was as you on the Orb releases (although U.F.Orb was my favourite, with Orb's adventures second). Orbital though, I went in the completely opposite direction... To me, Orbital II is just a collection of dance tracks (with some good ones mind you, and I have to admit, it does flow nicely, almost as good as Sniv does), and Orbital I had its moments (particularly Desert Storm), but on the whole not one of my better albums... Chris ----------------------------Chris Azure------------------------- |------ |--- _ \ garunya@hklink.net ____ | _ _ | ( | | | | | \ / The Broken Circle | _ _ | __ __| "I've not lived forever yet" - Chris Azure _ | | | | | __| | _|___ __| _| DBZ Liberation Front | | T B C "PIKKORO-SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!" - Son Gohan _| DBZLF_|

Chris Azure writes:

quoted 4 lines It's this "interaction"

> It's this "interaction" > between tracks, and the entire album structure, partly, that lets me > appreciate ["Snivilisation"], and I've never really been able to appreciate > anything else to the same degree.

I wonder if this is due to "They don't make 'em like they used to anymore" syndrome ... cf. Joy Division "Unknown Pleasures" (1979) and "Closer" (1980) Wire "154" (1979) Siouxsie & The Banshees "A Kiss In The Dreamhouse" (1982) Test Dept. "The Unacceptable Face Of Freedom" (1986) Cindytalk "In This World" (1988) John Foxx "Metamatic" (1980) [A record *everyone* on IDM should hear ... ] David Byrne & Brian Eno "My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts" (1981) (and if I thought a bit more, about a million others ... ) All of these demonstrate that "interaction between tracks ... and the entire album structure". True "albums" as opposed to "a collection of tracks". The term "Tour de force" comes to mind. (Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of albums in the here & now that I like quite a bit. But I don't know how many of them have that sweeping "grand connectedness" of the above. I love "In Pine Effect" to death but it's still a collection of disjoint-set tracks. Maybe I'm not thinking hard enough, but the recent CDs and vinyl are 15 feet away from me ... (-: ) - Greg

Regarding the interaction between tracks: sometimes, it's the equipment that a group uses that make it easier to come up with something that holds well together than the inverse. One however can only be impressed when you see the gear list of Orbital and check the result (considering that they do use a huge array of very different synths on snivilisation). Same goes for people like Jean-Michel Jarre. Use an AKS Synthi on one track and a Seiko SD-320 on another you`ll see what i mean (i think mike metlay has witnessed exactly this...) Ciao, -- Francois Dion (IdMEDIA) [> Email: francois@hyperreal.com <] ' [> C.P. 278, St-Lambert, QC, Canada, J4P 2N8 <]

On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Greg Earle wrote:

quoted 2 lines I wonder if this is due to "They don't make 'em like they used to anymore&q

> I wonder if this is due to "They don't make 'em like they used to anymore" > syndrome ...

I think it's rather that it's just something that doesn't happen often. I've most likely got a lot of this life still to live though and fully expect to be grabbed by other albums in the same way (or better) in future, whether they be old or new... It's a horrible thought though that some albums I (or anyone else) might consider utterly perfect are never going to be heard by me... this list helps to lessen this of course, but there's no way to know of everything ever made, and some of it's just going to be oblivious to me forever (This is common sense to most, but it is something I find very disturbing sometimes, although it's not quite as scary as the concept of eternity. An eternity of not knowing my favourite song/album? I'm not even going to think about that one.) [List of various albums]

quoted 4 lines (and if I thought a bit more, about a million others ... )

> (and if I thought a bit more, about a million others ... ) > All of these demonstrate that "interaction between tracks ... and the entire > album structure". True "albums" as opposed to "a collection of tracks". > The term "Tour de force" comes to mind.

Thanks for the list. I have Unknown Pleasures, but it sounded a bit flat on the first couple of listens (I'll give it some more chances). The rest of them I'll check out when and if I can... Chris ----------------------------Chris Azure------------------------- |------ |--- _ \ garunya@hklink.net ____ | _ _ | ( | | | | | \ / The Broken Circle | _ _ | __ __| "I've not lived forever yet" - Chris Azure _ | | | | | __| | _|___ __| _| DBZ Liberation Front | | T B C "PIKKORO-SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!" - Son Gohan _| DBZLF_|

Chris Azure writes:

quoted 5 lines The term "Tour de force" comes to mind.

>> The term "Tour de force" comes to mind. > > Thanks for the list. I have "Unknown Pleasures", but it sounded a bit flat > on the first couple of listens (I'll give it some more chances). The rest > of them I'll check out when and if I can ...

Remember that music has a temporal as well as a spatial dimension. All music exists in a context that includes time as an important element. That album which seemed so spiff-o-rama to you 4 years ago might cause you embarrassed giggles today. I was 20 years old when "Unknown Pleasures" was released in 1979. It was, essentially, the Squarepusher of its day (sans the hype (-: ) - i.e. it took the old (Stooges, Velvet Underground, even a touch of Black Sabbath) and the then-present (Punk Rock) and blended something totally new out of it ("Unknown Pleasures" along with other albums of that year like Public Image Ltd.'s "Metal Box" and Siouxsie & The Banshees' "Join Hands" and Gang of Four's "Entertainment!" essentially blueprinted "Post-Punk"). For me it remains my favorite album (or what other people would say, "Greatest Album Ever") both because of the musical content *and* the context in which it fit. Its context was my context. Much as our present-day albums we discuss on IDM exist in our current temporal context. I honestly don't have any idea how someone that is roughly 21 today would react to something like a (nearly) 17-year-old album like "Unknown Pleasures"; given that today's listener doesn't have the same context. It will be interesting to see what today's pre-schooler thinks of the Nuggets of '95-'96 in the year 2010. Anyone want to predict what will still be revered in hushed tones come then? - Greg

quoted 9 lines i like to take an artist's releases as a product

>i like to take an artist's releases as a product >of it's time as well as a product of the artist. >i will probably be searching the import bins >at local record stores for _the box_. and >i will probably find it one day. and it will >be more than likely that i will listen to >it. and i will probably think it is the freshest >thing i've heard this year, because that's what >i expect from p+p.

And believe me, you will be disapointed. I'm not getting down on Orbital out of malice, or because I think they're crap, because I don't, they are one of my favorite acts. It's just that I exepct much more from them and when I think they've lost their way and become too insulated and self-indulgent I'll call them out on it. Just wait till you listen... /""'' /"'RESH Live and Direct from the G-Spot Orange County, California, USA

ghhorne@DELTA.IS.TCU.EDU wrote:

quoted 11 lines the two tracks off of _snivilization_

>the two tracks off of _snivilization_ >that could be considered 'jungle' >[sad but true + are we here?] were, at >the time, incredibly fresh and different. >i can't remember hearing a jungle track >prior to _snivilization_ that didn't >rely on the same stock of breakbeats, >reggae samples, etc. had _snivilization_ not >been released, i seriously believe that >the genre we dearly call drum'n'bass would >be drastically different.

Firstly, Sad But True doesn't sound remotely jungly. Second, no offence to Are We Here, I reckon its a wicked track, but Orbital, and all techno bands who've dabbled in Jungle are nothing more than a side line, who have had *no* affect on the development of jungle. I recommend a listen to Bukem's new compilation 'Logical Progression' if you want to see the development of the intelligent style, as pioneered by the Good Looking/Looking Good labels. Cheers Andrew C

quoted 7 lines Second, no offence to Are We Here, I reckon its a wicked track,

>Second, no offence to Are We Here, I reckon its a wicked track, >but Orbital, and all techno bands who've dabbled in Jungle >are nothing more than a side line, who have had *no* affect on >the development of jungle. I recommend a listen to Bukem's new >compilation 'Logical Progression' if you want to see the >development of the intelligent style, as pioneered by the >Good Looking/Looking Good labels.

So you're claiming that techno bands that make jungle tracks have nothing to do with the development of jungle, and then you recommend a compilation that features a track in the style by a techno band (Global Communication) as an example of that development? Bukem cites GC's remix of Warp 69's "Natural High" as an influence. Enough said. C. -- cspot@hyperreal.com (Chris.Hilker)

Chris.Hilker wrote on Wed, 17 Apr 96 16:05:32 BST :

quoted 2 lines So you're claiming that techno bands that make jungle tracks have nothing

> So you're claiming that techno bands that make jungle tracks have nothing > to do with the development of jungle, and then you recommend a compilation

<Logical Progression>

quoted 2 lines that features a track in the style by a techno band (Global Communication)

> that features a track in the style by a techno band (Global Communication) > as an example of that development?

Except that GC are so schizophrenic that the stuff they do in different styles is dramatically different, not to mention pretty spot-on. In the context of their d&b stuff they hardly count as a "techno band", their d&b work is a lot more than "dabbling" as Andrew C. expressed it (btw. I don't think he was bearing GC in mind), just as they are by no means an "electro crew" when they do ambient remixes.

quoted 2 lines Bukem cites GC's remix of Warp 69's "Natural High" as an influence. En

> Bukem cites GC's remix of Warp 69's "Natural High" as an influence. Enough > said.

Yeah, fair comment, but we were trying to talk about orbital, and try finding any jungle artist who would quote anything off snivilization as an influence - I doubt it, though I'm prepared to be corrected. I suspect that the only influential tracks of Orbitals in this respect would be "Chime" and maybe Belfast etc. and that's going back so far that it's almost at the same level as junglists quite genuinely quoting Derrick May or early Black Dog as an influence. J ^

quoted 8 lines i can't remember hearing a jungle track

>>i can't remember hearing a jungle track >>prior to _snivilization_ that didn't >>rely on the same stock of breakbeats, >>reggae samples, etc. had _snivilization_ not >>been released, i seriously believe that >>the genre we dearly call drum'n'bass would >>be drastically different. >

Ummm, I don't think much of the jungle/Drum'n'Bass world really cares about orbital, or ever did. Exactly how many Jungle/drum'n'Bass tracks can you remember coming out prior to snivilisation?

quoted 1 line Firstly, Sad But True doesn't sound remotely jungly.

> Firstly, Sad But True doesn't sound remotely jungly.

Gotta agree on that one.

quoted 4 lines Second, no offence to Are We Here, I reckon its a wicked

> Second, no offence to Are We Here, I reckon its a wicked > track, but Orbital, and all techno bands who've dabbled in > Jungle are nothing more than a side line, who have had >*no* affect on the development of jungle.

Well i don't think orbital has had any influence in the development of D'n'B i'll go as far as saying that. Although samples of techno recs and classics often apear on Hardcore/rave/bouncey techno and occasionally D'n'B records!

quoted 4 lines I recommend a listen to Bukem's new compilation 'Logical

> I recommend a listen to Bukem's new compilation 'Logical >Progression' if you want to see the development of the >intelligent style, as pioneered by the Good Looking/Looking >Good labels.

Other cool ambient/mellow Drum'n'bass: the Artcore compilation, or, stuff on Reinforced, Metalheads, moving Shadow, Bear Necessities, Photek, Lucky Spin, to coin but a few. personally i think that Orbital and Snivilisation have as much in common with Drum'n'Bass development as 'Time Flies' has with trip hop.

"Chris.Hilker" <cspot@hyperreal.com> wrote:

quoted 15 lines Second, no offence to Are We Here, I reckon its a wicked track,

>>Second, no offence to Are We Here, I reckon its a wicked track, >>but Orbital, and all techno bands who've dabbled in Jungle >>are nothing more than a side line, who have had *no* affect on >>the development of jungle. I recommend a listen to Bukem's new >>compilation 'Logical Progression' if you want to see the >>development of the intelligent style, as pioneered by the >>Good Looking/Looking Good labels. > >So you're claiming that techno bands that make jungle tracks have nothing >to do with the development of jungle, and then you recommend a compilation >that features a track in the style by a techno band (Global Communication) >as an example of that development? > >Bukem cites GC's remix of Warp 69's "Natural High" as an influence. Enough >said.

Ok, you got me. But I'd say that GC and Amazon Amenity or Chameleon or whatever its called this week, are definitely an exception to the rule. I think 'techno band' is a bit of a narrow definition for GC after hearing Secret Knowledge, Jedi Knights etc. GC are special because they are brilliant and influential at whatever they turn their hand to. But back to the original point, you can't claim that Orbital had any influence now, can you? Cheers Andrew C

quoted 1 line Synectics in The Purple Universe Rephlex CAT 006CD

> Synectics in The Purple Universe Rephlex CAT 006CD

quoted 1 line I found this used today when I picked up the Orbital CD.

> I found this used today when I picked up the Orbital CD.

I'm purple with envy. A wonderful

quoted 6 lines album of mid-tempo techno with a tingle of trance and some ambience

> album of mid-tempo techno with a tingle of trance and some ambience > thrown in. I'm begining to think 1993 was the best year there's been > for IDM fans and it won't get any better. Now if only I could find > Rephlex CAT 005 (or 009 for that matter). Can anyone give me some > info on the artists behind this CD and what other things they haved > done?

THey recorded an album under the name A3000 called "Magnetic Gliding". Cheerios Ashok

quoted 5 lines Synectics in The Purple Universe Rephlex CAT 006CD

>> Synectics in The Purple Universe Rephlex CAT 006CD >> >> I found this used today when I picked up the Orbital CD. > > I'm purple with envy.

Lord only knows why; very mediocre mid-tempo little-dynamics release IMNSHO. It's not bad; but it's not very exciting, either. Make me an offer and I'll sell you mine. (While I'm at it, in case anyone's interested in any of Tournesol "Moonfunk" Sweet Exorcist "Spirit Guide To Low-Tech" Richie Hawtin "Mixmag Live! #20" on CD, drop me an e-mail. I'm skint and could use the dosh.) - Greg