please save these politcial posts and threads for
alt.someone.that.gives.a.fuck.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Z Moser" <roachgod69@hotmail.com>
To: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: [idm] stop this war ( & music)
quoted 7 lines hahaha no you need to think about what you are saying... or typing.. on
>
>
>
> >
> >hahaha no you need to think about what you are saying... or typing.. on
> >what computer by what means of electronic pulses that flow through what
> >data paths that culminate in what hubs to be seen by what ??>people...
who
quoted 1 line are free and live free because others died...go type >some more and try
> >are free and live free because others died...go type >some more and try
to
quoted 9 lines forget why you are free
> >forget why you are free
>
> I am free because people died for my freedom. This is true. I am not
> arguing that. I am arguing that freedom is not the reason, or at least not
> the primary reason for this war. Are you trying to tell me that you don't
> think the government uses the media to lie and spread propaganda? Almost
> anyone will at the drop of a hat will tell you to be a politician you have
> to be conniving, and dishonest...Hence the Ironic joke of the "honest
> politician", But it seems that when ever a president screams war and
starts
quoted 1 line waving the flag we forget all of what we thought before and follow him as
> waving the flag we forget all of what we thought before and follow him as
a
quoted 2 lines child would a parent. I think there are two reason behind this war. Number
> child would a parent. I think there are two reason behind this war. Number
> one money. Number two unresolved and redirected anger that spawned in
9/11.
quoted 1 line I think freedom of Iraq is a justification, because the American public
> I think freedom of Iraq is a justification, because the American public
will
quoted 2 lines not accept the first two.
> not accept the first two.
> If the real reason was freedom then why did we wait until now? Saddam
has
quoted 2 lines been in power for awhile. Why Iraq? There are plenty of countries who have
> been in power for awhile. Why Iraq? There are plenty of countries who have
> dictators that make Saddam look like the easter bunny. We even support
some
quoted 3 lines of dictators with financial and military backing.
> of dictators with financial and military backing.
>
> Let me get this straight. I am not anti-american. I think most
americans
quoted 2 lines a good hard-working individuals. I am anti the ruling class. By ruling
> a good hard-working individuals. I am anti the ruling class. By ruling
> class, I mean the class that controls most of the money. I do not think
they
quoted 16 lines have the common american's or Iraqis's interest in mind.
> have the common american's or Iraqis's interest in mind.
>
> >>It sounds a bit reactionary, and hypocritical.
> >
> >
> >hmmm what i find reactionary and hypocritical is people who are doing
> > >nothing but block traffic for those patriotic freedom loving trauma
> > >victims unable to get medical attention because you are too wrapped >up
> >in social "consciousness" to give a fuck about anyone and yes you >are.
>
> Non-violent public demonstrations have probably secured more freedoms
> over the years, in america, than all the deaths for freedom combined. They
> are guaranteed under out constitution. (would you suggest we take that
> freedom away). And they provided an outlet for points of view that may not
> be available in the mainstream media.
> I have already stated that I do think it is sad that people haven't
been
quoted 8 lines able to get medical attention, but I do think that one's priorities are a
> able to get medical attention, but I do think that one's priorities are a
> bit scrambled, if one is concerned with the inability to get medical
> attention over the horrors that occur during war.
>
> >
> >>Unjustified (>>>read "left wing propaganda buzzword"<<<) wars would
>>not
> >>be fought if we had leaders that were looking out for our >>interest,
and
quoted 10 lines not their own pocketbooks.
> >>not their own pocketbooks.
> >broad general statement that has no backing with fact...typical..i can
>see
> >through your "debating tactics" lets hear some more buzzwords >shall we??
>
> I'm not here to debate "debating tactics".
>
> I am not sure if it is a "left-wing buzzword or not" I was using it in
> the philosophical sense. That is, that this is a war that has no good
> reason. I tend to try not to associate with specific parties,
affiliations,
quoted 1 line or movements. I try make my decisions on my own based on research,
> or movements. I try make my decisions on my own based on research,
critical
quoted 4 lines thinking, analysis of motivation, and watching historical patterns. I also
> thinking, analysis of motivation, and watching historical patterns. I also
> do give some credence to sources that have a good track record of using
> these skills to accurately predict the future.
> It is a broad general statement, this doesn't mean it is not true.
Most
quoted 1 line of the facts that you say do not exist are accessible in public records.
> of the facts that you say do not exist are accessible in public records.
The
quoted 1 line reason I made the broad general statement is because it would take allot
> reason I made the broad general statement is because it would take allot
of
quoted 2 lines time and effort to spell it out, when all is a small amount of effort on
> time and effort to spell it out, when all is a small amount of effort on
> your part to look it up for yourself. Though I will if you would like,
spell
quoted 11 lines it out that is.
> it out that is.
>
>
> >> If the populace was educated
> >and exactly how uneducated are they?? and what exactly >is "educated"???
> >care for some more broad general statements?? keep >reading what z moser
> >has to say
>
> The majority of Americas population does not read above a 8th grade
> level. This is the reason the major newspapers are printed at this level.
> Educated means that you do not believe things just because they are
told
quoted 1 line to you. It means that you have a understanding that all that is presented
> to you. It means that you have a understanding that all that is presented
to
quoted 1 line you through that mainstream media channels is not always true. It means
> you through that mainstream media channels is not always true. It means
you
quoted 1 line have the skills to logically analyze this information in compare it to
> have the skills to logically analyze this information in compare it to
other
quoted 8 lines sources. It means you have the ability to gather, understand, and use
> sources. It means you have the ability to gather, understand, and use
> information. Education eventually leads to wisdom.
> It is easy to persuade the people who do not have these skills.
>
>
> >
> >>and informed we would have better leaders.
> >HAHAHA i promised you more broad general non-specific words >like
"better"
quoted 1 line leaders bwahahaha. get a fact or something to back >yourself up??? what
> >leaders bwahahaha. get a fact or something to back >yourself up??? what
is
quoted 2 lines "better"? care to shed some light... can you >make me a chart and tell me
> >"better"? care to shed some light... can you >make me a chart and tell me
> >who was better in the past or who is >the "best" leader?? hahahaha you
are
quoted 4 lines a joke.
> >a joke.
>
> Better is very subjective. It is dependent on a person's or agencies
> goals. For example if one's goal was to lose weight diet and exercise
would
quoted 2 lines be "better" than sitting around eating fast food and watching TV. On the
> be "better" than sitting around eating fast food and watching TV. On the
> contrary, if one's goal was to become a sumo wrestler perhaps sitting
around
quoted 8 lines eating that fast food would be better.
> eating that fast food would be better.
> A system is a method or series of steps designed to achieve a goal. A
> leader is one who watches over this system to see that it is running
> smoothly, and makes adjustments to the system if it is not. Lets say there
> is a corporation who's main purpose is to bring in as much capital as
> possible. A leader who developed a system that achieved this goal, would
> better than one that squander money away on unwise uninformed investments.
> The American government system is supposed to be a democratic
government
quoted 2 lines for the people looking out for our liberties and rights that were laid out
> for the people looking out for our liberties and rights that were laid out
> in the constitution and bill of rights. A good leader is one who, takes
this
quoted 10 lines into account and has the interest of the whole population in mind when he
> into account and has the interest of the whole population in mind when he
> makes descions concerning the country, not one who is more concerned with
> the interest of himself and the ruling class that consist of only the top
> few percent of the population.
>
> Weather you like to believe it or not some people are corrupt and power
> hungry, and many of these people go into politics. Politics offers a great
> source of power. When one of these people get into control the system they
> reside over becomes corrupt. This can happen from local school board
> members, to, heaven forbid, the President of the United States. These
people
quoted 19 lines are banking on you trusting them, not questioning policy, not researching,
> are banking on you trusting them, not questioning policy, not researching,
> not becoming informed and educated. This is how they become elected.
>
> >
> >> If unjustified wars
> >
> >yawn.... uh what is an unjustified war and what is a justified war in
>YOUR
> >eyes??? why don't you explain yourself instead of expecting >everyone to
> >know what exactly you are speaking of ... oh wait you >just want to pull
> >heart strings so you will never be specific >because you might lose some
> >followers... liberal scum can never be >specific cause specifics create
> >differing schools of thought and the >last thing you want is people to
> >think individually you want them all >to think the same
>
> I am not certain to what a justified war would be. According American
> law the only time you are justified in violent action if they invade your
> property, or in self-defense, or defense of another person. It is not
> justified to hurt someone because you suspect they are going to hurt you,
in
quoted 11 lines fact if you do this it will be you who will be arrested. I think the
> fact if you do this it will be you who will be arrested. I think the
> government should apply the same laws to itself than it does to it's
> subjects.
>
>
> >
> >>Or would you prefer to live the life of comfort and apathy
> >
> >DING DING DING we hit the nail on the head... APATHY!!! yayyy we have
> >reached an new left wing LOW!!!! i love when we throw words >around...it
> >let's everyone think of their own interpretation of what >you mean so
they
quoted 5 lines will agree even if you meant something different.
> >will agree even if you meant something different.
> >
> >APATHY is knowing that the world is different now that we are in the
>21st
> >century (9/11-etc etc) and that leaders come to power and >eventually
start
quoted 2 lines genocides... so by stopping them before they start >you can preserve the
> >genocides... so by stopping them before they start >you can preserve the
> >future... by addressing issues head and not >reacting to them allows you
to
quoted 5 lines be able to survive to protest another >day.
> >be able to survive to protest another >day.
>
> This is true. Apathy is also doing nothing when you own government is
> participating in genocides. At Fort Bennings Georgia we have a government
> run school, Called the School of Americas(SOA). It was dubbed the School
of
quoted 6 lines Assasins by a Panamanian newspaper. This school has train been training
> Assasins by a Panamanian newspaper. This school has train been training
> future latin american dictators and soldiers in the torture, execution and
> blackmail sense 1954. This is all on public record. I personally have a
> friends whose parents had to leave El Salvador because his life was being
> threatened by the Graduates of this school. The mission of U.S. southern
> command (encompassing the SOA) includes "Protecting the supply of
strategic
quoted 10 lines natural resources and access to the markets" This in layman's terms means
> natural resources and access to the markets" This in layman's terms means
> setting up governments ran by us to take another countries resources and
> financial gains. People say it's not about the money. It's in black and
> white. What do you think is meant when it is stated war is good for the
> economy. The business of killing people is about money.
> Why do you think we know Saddam has chemicals and warheads capable of
> delivering them. We sold him his first Anthrax that's why. Saddam has 133
> billion barrels of oil in Iraq that he is planning to nationalize. Do that
> math at 40 dollars a barrel that's over 5 trillion dollars dollars tied up
> in the outcome of this war. There is a planed 100 billion dollars that to
be
quoted 10 lines spent on this war and it's clean up. Do you realize we could easily solve
> spent on this war and it's clean up. Do you realize we could easily solve
> poverty in america with 100 billion dollars? Apathy is believing that the
> companies at the receiving end of all of this money have no influence over
> the powers that be.
>
> Apathy is seeing problems and either turning a blind eye to them, or just
> not caring.
>
> >
> >you are misinformed and exhaust me with your propaganda... i have >used
no
quoted 5 lines buzzwords and pulled no heart strings... unlike you...
> >buzzwords and pulled no heart strings... unlike you...
>
> I personally think "buzzwords" is a buzzword, but I am not arguing this. I
> do not think these things are relevant to the topic at hand.
> I think you use ad-hominem arguments instead of counter-points. In case
you
quoted 1 line don't know an ad-hominem is a logical fallacy based on attacking the
> don't know an ad-hominem is a logical fallacy based on attacking the
arguers
quoted 14 lines charactor instead of the argument at hand.
> charactor instead of the argument at hand.
>
> zach
>
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