Re: [idm] Re: Scott Herren and ATL (who y'all rollin with)
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of course, i could just not respond, but...
----- Original Message -----
From: "adam florin" <aeflo@brown.edu>
To: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 5:55 PM
Subject: [idm] Re: Scott Herren and ATL (who y'all rollin with)
quoted 5 lines adam piontek, before his post dissipated into total misunderstanding> adam piontek, before his post dissipated into total misunderstanding
> ("Face it man, you're trying to tell people to not be
> inventive"--absurd!), stressed that music is not a culture itself.
> no, the sounds aren't a culture, but the scene that grows around
> various artists/aesthetics then lifestyles DOES constitute a
culture,
quoted 1 line and hip-hop IS a culture as well as a genre.> and hip-hop IS a culture as well as a genre.
No, if a culture can grow around a musical style, than the musical
style can be disconnected from the culture. Hence, there may be a
hip-hop-related culture, but hip-hop itself is a musical style that
can be appreciated on its own. Perhaps those who see themselves as
part of the related culture feel that those who aren't a part of said
culture are therefore somehow "missing" something, but if they're not
native, they can never be a native, so what's the point?
Perhaps before anyone ventures futher, however, we should agree on a
definition of culture (many people assume they know what it means
without realizing they never read a definition). Here's one I just
looked up in the online Cambridge Dictionary:
"the way of life, esp. the general customs and beliefs, of a
particular group of people at a particular time"
Given that, and I think it'll do for now, music is not a custom or a
belief. It is a product of human endeavor. An endeavor (making
music, listening to music, dancing to music) can be a custom, such
that a style of music can be a *part* of a culture, and hence linked
to it, but once invented, why do certain cultures have to have a
stranglehold on how any style of music is used? They shouldn't.
And this is what I meant by saying that someone was implying that
people shouldn't be inventive: If you say that the culture to which a
given style of music is linked has some sort of monopoly on that style
of music, you're saying others should avoid touching it. However,
when outsiders appropriate a style of music for their own
uses/purposes/whatever, that's one of the main ways that music
evolves! To say that any artist should also take on the culture
associated with a style of music in addition to that style of music is
ludicrous. I recognize the link between music and culture, but it's
possible to sever that link and transplant the style. So music is not
dependent on a culture. What about Senor Coconut? Now there's an
instance where the original culture that spawned the styles he's
appropriating would, I'm sure, be somewhat concerned at his version of
the styles... If that makes any sense, which I suppose it doesn't.
quoted 2 lines n johnston is concerned about our little 'idm culture' (oxymoron?> n johnston is concerned about our little 'idm culture' (oxymoron?
> jk)
I know you said 'jk,' but I just want to point out for the record that
believing one has no culture is a culture in itself. Americans as a
whole (myself included at times) generally tend to think this way -
that we don't have culture, we just consume the cultural artifacts of
others. This itself is culture.
quoted 3 lines even any idm nightclubs. hip-hop has all of these, and they define> even any idm nightclubs. hip-hop has all of these, and they define
> the culture. props to skism : 'Everyone knows the 4 pillars of
> hip-hop... emceeing, djing, breaking & graffiti'...
true, idm-ish music isn't associated with the same level of cultural
cohesion with which hip-hop music is associated, but that doesn't
invalidate or validate either style of music any more or less in my
eyes (or ears, actually).
quoted 3 lines what armchair charlie was stressing from the beginning is that an> what armchair charlie was stressing from the beginning is that an
> artist OUGHT to be aware of the cultural context he is pouring his
> creative efforts into. nobody would attempt compose in the manner
of
quoted 1 line mozart (since he seems to be the most fucking popular example on> mozart (since he seems to be the most fucking popular example on
this
quoted 1 line list next to afx)> list next to afx)
(that's why i chose him! why use someone new when Mozart will do!)
quoted 4 lines without learning a high level of music theory. and>without learning a high level of music theory. and
> no ignorant techno rube can expect to walk into a hip-hop joint and
> expect to impress everybody with his untrained ability. it's been
> said a few times already, this idm attitude of 'let's chop up
hip-hop
quoted 7 lines and call it hip-hop' is bullocks. when hip-hoppers began sampling> and call it hip-hop' is bullocks. when hip-hoppers began sampling
> jazz, they didn't start calling their music jazz. the fact is it's
> hip-hop as seen through the DSP-eye, which sees all soundwaves in
> sixteenth-note sized chunks that it can rearrange in a random order
> over a gritty 4/4 beat. no one is safe from the ravenous
> DSP-beast... keep the children home tonight, they might find
> themselves REMIXED in the morning ! SAVE YOURSELVES.
All right, I agree with this, I think. I don't know for sure, so
refresh my memory - who's been calling Prefuse 73 "hip-hop?" I think,
for the millionth time, that a reference to hip-hop appeared in a Warp
or Schematic press release. I don't think it even called it hip-hop;
if I recall they said "rebuilding hip-hop" or some such nonsense.
Perhaps its for lack of a term, huh? One could say that hip-hop or
certain turn-tablists "rebuild" jazz. Like rebuilding a bridge - you
break it down and use the components to build it again...
Or maybe I'm just arguing now for the sake of arguing ;-)
At the very least, if it's shameful to call it hip-hop, let's just
call it what it is - IDM. After all, if some people think Philip
Glass is IDM, why not an actual IDM producer's music being called IDM?
Did people have such trouble with the hip-hop leanings of
Funkstorung's Appetite For Destruction? I wasn't here then.
-Adam
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