IDM Mailing Archive

1994-02-02 20:29LUKEY@WordPerfect.com>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and 24 trax on (double) CD. I must say that's a very good idea (Save the V

From:: <LUKEY@WordPerfect.com>
Date:: Wed, 02 Feb 1994 13:29:45 -0700
Subject:: The death of the industry?

quoted 1 line

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

and 24 trax on (double) CD. I must say that's a very good idea (Save the Vinyl!!!!!!!). <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Let me preface this by first stating that I'm a DJ and I use 1200-MkIIs and a Denon DN2000F for my mixing. Some other DJs have told me that by buying CDs and DJing with them I'm "contributing to the death of the industry." My question is simply: how is this so? If a new release is available on CD and vinyl, I will purchase the CD version unless there are extra tracks on vinyl (normally it's the other way around), simply because in my experience, the CD format is much more convenient. It's more portable, has much better sound quality (especially for some low volume ambient music, where crackle can really destroy the effect), and lasts much longer. The only advantage that vinyl has over CD (imho) is that you have "hands-on" control when matching beats. Functionally, I like using the Denon better than the 1200s simply because it's much more precise in queing and gives you an instant start (.01 second), compared to .7 seconds for a turntable. I realize that record companies have started to produce more and more releases on CD alone, and are starting to reduce and eliminate pressing vinyl of some titles, simply because CD appeals to the mass consumer market where vinyl is only purchased by DJs, but is this so bad? 1200s have been around since the 1970s, and haven't functionally changed one bit. Maybe it's time we moved on to better technology to produce better sounds. I know I've just opened myself up to the opportunity to be flamed left and right, but let's face it, digital audio and samplers are the wave of the future, and DJs that are stuck in the old analog vinyl world because they don't want to have to learn how to use any new equipment are going to eventually be out of business. It might not happen for another 10 or 20 years, but over even the next few years I think it'll be harder to find some of the good tracks on vinyl. The only reason why smaller recording artists use vinyl to start is the price. It's cheap to do a small pressing, get some DJs to play your work, and then eventually do a larger pressing and maybe get signed on with a record company that will advertise for you and probably put you on their compilations. CDs are becoming so cheap now that you can do a one-off for about $30. If I just recorded a killer track off my sampling keyboard in my own bedroom onto a DAT player and it costs me just as much to make a couple hundred CDs as it does to press a couple hundred vinyl, I can tell you which option I would go for. Why take the huge loss in sound quality, not to mention limiting yourself to such a small market? It's still a little cheaper to do a small pressing of vinyl than it is to do a small pressing of CDs though, so it might be a few more years until this becomes a reality, but I can see it happening really soon. Soon they will have digital mixing boards available, so you could take a CD player with digital outputs, and provided you have amps with digital inputs, you could get the cleanest possible sound with no noise at all coming from the mixing board. Think of what kind of new dimensions in sound quality this will open up. Is this how buying CDs is killing the industry? This conversation probably has more to do with the bpm list than it does with idm, but I think idm'ers probably want to hear about things that will affect the music they buy too, and I think there are a lot of people here that are DJs also that might have good comments to add to this. DJ's, let me know what you think about all of this. I am open to your comments and criticisms, but please, if I offended you and you want to flame me, flame me in private email so as not to waste everybody's time by reading personal attacks here. Thanks for your time, Luke

1994-02-02 20:50Matthew CorwineWell, I use both vinyl and CDs, and I prefer vinyl at the moment for two reasons. First of

From:: Matthew Corwine <mcorwine@u.washington.edu>
Date:: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 12:50:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject:: Re: The death of the industry?

Well, I use both vinyl and CDs, and I prefer vinyl at the moment for two reasons. First of all, as you stated, you have a more "hands-on" feel when matching beats. CDs require more precision in matching beats, and DJing CDs also commands a deeper knowledge of the music. You can't see where the breaks are on a CD. Often I can mix fine playing someone else's records just by seeing where the breaks are and mixing accordingly. You really can't do that with CDs. The second, and primary, reason I prefer vinyl is that the selection of music is more interesting. At the moment only the major dance labels press CDs, and smaller labels usually only end up on compilations months after they are pressed, and usually in an edited form. On vinyl it is much easier to find more obscure and experimental tunes. CD "white labels" are also rather scarce. However, I don't necessarily defend this reasoning heartily, as CDs do open up the music to not only the DJ but the listener as well. Vinyl fetishism does tend to caress the DJ's ego in that the tunes he/she is playing will probably never make it into the hands of Herb and Martha Clubkid. I believe that they should have more access to the music they hear in clubs, and hope that while vinyl stays alive for its aesthetic appeal, CD technology improves and more underground music can make it out to the casual listener. Call me crazy, but isn't that what the music's about, anyway? Peace, Matt

1994-02-02 21:28Jon Drukman>Some other DJs have told me that by buying CDs and DJing with them >I'm "contributing to

From:: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
Date:: Wed, 2 Feb 94 13:28:44 PST
Subject:: Re: The death of the industry?

quoted 2 lines Some other DJs have told me that by buying CDs and DJing with them

>Some other DJs have told me that by buying CDs and DJing with them >I'm "contributing to the death of the industry."

i don't agree, actually. right now, DJ CD players are quite a bit more expensive than buying two 1200's plus mixer. so the startup cost for vinyl DJing is lower. i expect that maybe someday the prices will come into line. at that point, i might start to get scared.

quoted 5 lines The only advantage that vinyl has over CD (imho) is that you have

>The only advantage that vinyl has over CD (imho) is that you have >"hands-on" control when matching beats. Functionally, I like using >the Denon better than the 1200s simply because it's much more precise >in queing and gives you an instant start (.01 second), compared to .7 >seconds for a turntable.

well, i don't believe that instant start stuff. admittedly, i haven't played with the CD models enough to be an expert but so far I find it *really* hard to start the CD accurately, whereas vinyl is simple. besides, what if the point at which you want to start the song isn't under the laser pickup at the moment you hit "play"... you have to wait for the CD to rotate around to that point...

quoted 5 lines I realize that record companies have started to produce more and more

>I realize that record companies have started to produce more and more >releases on CD alone, and are starting to reduce and eliminate >pressing vinyl of some titles, simply because CD appeals to the mass >consumer market where vinyl is only purchased by DJs, but is this so >bad?

depends. there are still plenty of people fucking up CD mastering big time. i've heard some CDs that sounded like utter shit compared to the vinyl. but it's really not a question of quality or anything - it's purely market driven. people just aren't buying turntables or vinyl in quantities to support a mass industry. vinyl is effectively dead RIGHT NOW as a mass consumer item. fortunately (or not, depending on your viewpoint) the dance music market is not a mass consumer market. it's a specialty (niche) market and can afford to be catered to in that manner.

quoted 3 lines 1200s have been around since the 1970s, and haven't

>1200s have been around since the 1970s, and haven't >functionally changed one bit. Maybe it's time we moved on to better >technology to produce better sounds.

see above - who says CDs sound better?

quoted 5 lines I know I've just opened myself up to the opportunity to be flamed

>I know I've just opened myself up to the opportunity to be flamed >left and right, but let's face it, digital audio and samplers are the >wave of the future, and DJs that are stuck in the old analog vinyl >world because they don't want to have to learn how to use any new >equipment are going to eventually be out of business.

not any time in the near future.

quoted 2 lines The only reason why smaller recording artists use vinyl to start is

>The only reason why smaller recording artists use vinyl to start is >the price.

aha, now we get to an interesting point.

quoted 5 lines It's cheap to do a small pressing, get some DJs to play your work,

>It's cheap to do a small pressing, get some DJs to play your work, >and then eventually do a larger pressing and maybe get signed on with >a record company that will advertise for you and probably put you on >their compilations. CDs are becoming so cheap now that you can do a >one-off for about $30.

WHERE!? Unless you know someone who owns a CD burner, it's more like $50 or $60. The blanks alone are at least $22. This isn't too attractive for a struggling artist looking to get some DJs to spin his CD. It *is* attractive to musicians who want to archive their material or musicians who also happen to be DJs who want to spin their unreleased stuff.

quoted 4 lines If I just recorded a killer track off my sampling keyboard in my own

>If I just recorded a killer track off my sampling keyboard in my own >bedroom onto a DAT player and it costs me just as much to make a >couple hundred CDs as it does to press a couple hundred vinyl, I can >tell you which option I would go for.

Depends what market you're attempting to penetrate. If you want it played in the rave scene, you'd better make the vinyl pressing. If you want to sell it in Tower Records, you'd better make it on CD. And anyway, the prices aren't nearly equal yet.

quoted 1 line Why take the huge loss in sound quality,

>Why take the huge loss in sound quality,

again, not necessarily huge - see above.

quoted 1 line not to mention limiting yourself to such a small market?

>not to mention limiting yourself to such a small market?

it may be small but it might also be critical if you want to become successful. you can release a CD single as your first offering and i guarantee you will not get famous from it. however, a few hundred vinyl copies in the right places can work wonders. you can talk about "sound quality" and "durability" all you want but there are many more factors at work if you want to have a CAREER as a "rave musician." Jon Drukman jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence.

1994-02-02 21:46Tai Nguyen> Let me preface this by first stating that I'm a DJ and I use >1200-MkIIs and a Denon DN2

From:: Tai Nguyen <thn1@cornell.edu>
Date:: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 16:46:50 -0500
Subject:: Re: The death of the industry?

quoted 4 lines Let me preface this by first stating that I'm a DJ and I use

> Let me preface this by first stating that I'm a DJ and I use >1200-MkIIs and a Denon DN2000F for my mixing. Some other DJs have >told me that by buying CDs and DJing with them I'm "contributing to >the death of the industry." My question is simply: how is this so?

Well, I wrote an article on BPM that sort of related to this a month ago, so here goes again. DJ's are dinosaurs. The art of DJ'ing has remained practically unchanged for decades and they are afraid of what might happen if things do change. Not that they aren't right. The advent of CD's as a popular DJ medium may turn the whole industry upside down, but this is just an opinion no more or less valid than any other. The article I posted about on BPM referred to people's fears that the increasing advancement of DJ CD technology would lead to DJ's not requiring any talent at all to be DJ's. For example, with the 2700F you can preprogram when a song starts and ends, set loops points, and other stuff. Who's to say that one day you won't have to do anything more than push a button to activate a computer algorithm which will mix two songs seamlessly for you? Well this would in fact lead to the death of the industry because almost any Joe Shmoe could be a DJ. However, IMHO, this is not a bad thing, because there will be new ways for DJ's to express their art. They can concentrate on musical selection more, can pay attention to the crowd 'vibe' more, and will probably be able to do real innovative stuff with new techie equipment. None of this would require physical prowess though, as DJing does now. Basically, I think DJ's are afraid to see things change but I for one have always been against the 'save my scene please, it's dying' attitude. DJ's haven't been around since the beginning of time. They will not be around forever. Just chill out and deal with change when it comes. Peace, Tai, posing as a poser :P ___ (:)====/__/\=(:)(:)============================(:)====================(:) |\| _\_ \ \|\||=| Tai Nguyen |\| email address: |=| |=| /__/\_\ \=||\| Cornell University |=| thn1@cornell.edu |\| |\| / /\ __/\|(:)============================(:)====================(:) |=|/ / /\ \ |=||=| "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, |=| |\/__/ \_\/ |\||\| and statistics." |\| |=\__\/\ \ |=||=| - Mark Twain |=| (:)==\__\/===(:)(:)===================================================(:)

1994-02-03 00:03David Kellyi'm not real worried right now about cd's driving vinyl out of circulation simply because

From:: David Kelly <kellyd@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>
Date:: Wed, 02 Feb 94 19:03:02 EST
Subject:: Re: The death of the industry?

i'm not real worried right now about cd's driving vinyl out of circulation simply because you can't get what you need on cds.. even when a track you want to use IS available on cd it's rather hard to find in most cases, here at least.. and don't bring up compilations because a) the majority of the music on compilations is old by the time the comp is released, b) compilation companies invariably put on the wrong mix or the mix i won't use, c) comp companies also usually put on only one song from any specific 12" but the most impressive/useful stuff is often the "other" mixes, the less obvious ones.. i *have* used both vinyl and cds and i *do* think it is easier to spin with cds, but the music is just not on cd yet, at least not where i am.. when it becomes easier to find stuff on cd than on vinyl, that's when you'll see people switching over in droves, but we're a long way away from that right now..

The death of the industry?