IDM Mailing Archive

"jason parent" <jasonparent@rogers.com> wrote:

quoted 3 lines and, in my opinion, the worst thing that could happen would be for the

>and, in my opinion, the worst thing that could happen would be for the >smaller labels to give up on sound quality in return for lower production >costs because it would give the majors a monopoly on my cd collection.

agreed. if one possibility is that CD's will not die but become a more "specialized" market like vinyl, then indies need to make CDs a VERY COOL THING. not in terms of status/brag/geek value (though that may factor in too), but in terms of quality, value, and physicality. one thing i see over and over in the posts from listmembers who still buy CDs (and even some of those who buy downloads or rip their CDs and file them away) is that people don't feel a strong connection to downloaded music. it's easy come, easy go (or easily ignored in some subfolder or backup drive). the physical connection is obviously important on some level, not just as a consumer to feel value, but as someone trying to in some way connect to the artist. i don't think anyone in their right mind believes the CD in their hand was literally touched/made by the people credited (unless it was, in the case of handmade limited editions). but i think this intangible feeling about a tangible object is an important angle to be addressed. this is one thing that has pissed me off a bit about a lot of CDs in recent years, especially minimal electronica. the CD design is basically a flat color with small amounts of helvetica type, perhaps a small vector graphic. the center and/or back panels of the insert may even be totally blank. artists like this may be trying to impart something specific with design like this, or perhaps it's just laziness, or that they don't really care about visual presentation. i think those sorts of attitudes have led to people feeling they are getting less or even to the point of not caring if the CD art is lost because what are they really losing? d. ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at chthonicstreams.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

You make a very valid point. CD's are, by their very nature, far less tactile, visceral objects than the lush beauty of a vinyl with a beautiful gatefold cover. I have a large collection of milk crates full of my beloved vinyl from ... well, very long ago ;-) and you'd have to really prise it off me with a gun against my head. But there are few CD's I have such a strong emotional attachment to, now that you bring this up. As much as I might love the actual music on the CD's, there is no longer that mother-hennish protective love that I have for my record collection. I also agree with your comments on font choice and ultra-minimal artwork. Gone are the days of beautiful fold-outs and little messages scratched into the run-out grooves (well, maybe vinyl is still there, but not quite to the extent of ALL music/ albums being released to that medium). I * On 26 Oct 2007 at 9:45, chthonic wrote:

quoted 9 lines this is one thing that has pissed me off a bit about a lot of CDs in

> this is one thing that has pissed me off a bit about a lot of CDs in > recent years, especially minimal electronica. the CD design is basically > a flat color with small amounts of helvetica type, perhaps a small vector > graphic. the center and/or back panels of the insert may even be totally > blank. artists like this may be trying to impart something specific with > design like this, or perhaps it's just laziness, or that they don't really > care about visual presentation. i think those sorts of attitudes have led > to people feeling they are getting less or even to the point of not caring > if the CD art is lost because what are they really losing?

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of course, the same argument can be made for vinyl packaging. i have a 3-record + 7" set of "minimal wave" music released by wierd records. the package on this is absolutely beautiful. the booklet reprints flyers and photos from "wierd" nights in NYC up to that time. it made me feel like i had a window in on something really interesting that i missed. the night has since been reactivated and i plan on going. the problem with vinyl is, i don't have a lot of time to sit and listen to something in my home. i ended up making a CDR of my favorite songs on the records. i've listened to it a few times, but find it lacking because it's just a dub to me, with no artwork. the difference between vinyl and CDs is that vinyl *can't* be portable in its natural state. CDs can, but the players are larger and the packaging is still often carried around. or the big thing in the 90s, people lugging around CD sleeve booklets. it's increased portability/convenience/laziness that has driven people to embrace ipods and mp3s - even though CDs have enough of several worlds (portability, tangibility, sound quality). something else people haven't thought of is the secondary market. even now, if a record or CD isn't up to snuff or just not as essential as paying rent, you can sell them used through any number of online (and some physical) outlets. if physical copies evaporate altogether, the possibility of getting a fraction of your investment back (including to pour back into new music purchases) evaporates as well. while the secondary market doesn't directly benefit the artist, it can be a barometer of their popularity. seeing that people are willing to pony up $$$ on ebay for an OOP nurse with wound or aphex disc can lead to reissues, new reviews, reassessment by the press and fans, possibly even live shows. ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Irene McC" <substar@telkomsa.net> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:05:43 +0200

quoted 34 lines You make a very valid point.

>You make a very valid point. > >CD's are, by their very nature, far less tactile, visceral objects than the lush >beauty of a vinyl with a beautiful gatefold cover. I have a large collection of >milk crates full of my beloved vinyl from ... well, very long ago ;-) and you'd >have to really prise it off me with a gun against my head. But there are few >CD's I have such a strong emotional attachment to, now that you bring this >up. As much as I might love the actual music on the CD's, there is no longer >that mother-hennish protective love that I have for my record collection. > >I also agree with your comments on font choice and ultra-minimal artwork. >Gone are the days of beautiful fold-outs and little messages scratched into >the run-out grooves (well, maybe vinyl is still there, but not quite to the >extent of ALL music/ albums being released to that medium). > >I >* > > >On 26 Oct 2007 at 9:45, chthonic wrote: > >> this is one thing that has pissed me off a bit about a lot of CDs in >> recent years, especially minimal electronica. the CD design is basically >> a flat color with small amounts of helvetica type, perhaps a small vector >> graphic. the center and/or back panels of the insert may even be totally >> blank. artists like this may be trying to impart something specific with >> design like this, or perhaps it's just laziness, or that they don't really >> care about visual presentation. i think those sorts of attitudes have led >> to people feeling they are getting less or even to the point of not caring >> if the CD art is lost because what are they really losing? > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------

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Definitely a valid point, but it's also one side of the Chicken or the Egg syndrome. The whole system itself is fucked to the point where people feel entitled to be able to download something for free - like they're owed it for having endured some past wrong that was so heinous that the only redemption is for them to take morality into their own hands. I for one remember movie (theatre) prices becoming ABSURDLY jacked up in my city, well before file sharing could have come close to how bad it is now. Why is it when i go into an HMV, i see more obscure label shit pushing $30 for 1 CD? Its been this way since I was in high school, yet in high school there was no way for me to track that same album down on the internet - that was unheard of... so what was the excuse there? Where were all the lost profits there? (oh right - it was because no one has ever heard of said $30, so that $30 cd was probably the only one sold in the entire city... ill get to that in a sec) It seems to me that INDUSTRY in general, whether it be the film industry, the record industry, whatever, has a fantastic scapegoat in filesharing and p2p networking, almost to the point where they (if they have any brains at all) exploit the best of both worlds: Expansive (and low cost compared to traditional methods) promotional potential through online marketing (essentially exposing this music to a wider audience than EVER possible before), with an over inflated price based on a hard-to-really-prove loss recovery system. (ie. We have to jack our prices because people owe us for the shit they got without paying.) The ironic thing is, if they truly are having to jack prices to recover profits lost at the hand of piracy, the ONLY people they are penalising are the people who are supporting them in the first place. I'm definitely pro-piracy to the degree of stating that this system that exists - that so many people want to fight to protect, and fight to retain justice in - is NOT working, and is NOT fair. When the big guys have to start closing the doors because it's getting that bad, maybe FINALLY an underground artist will have even the tiniest chance at becoming successful without having to suck the dick of a monster that could care less, just for a chance at a lucky break of a shot of success. Mantrakid -----Original Message----- From: tim@tundra-music.com [mailto:tim@tundra-music.com] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 10:52 PM To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: [idm] who still buys CDs - tangible evidence I still buy CDs and vinyl all the time - I buy DVDs - I buy books - I buy computer games. What will eventuate of your purely digital music collection ? I mean once all your HD's fail and your ipod croaks and you get sick of spooled DVDr's / blu ray discs full of backed up music. What with Oink being taken down this issue has come to the fore again - were there many Oink people on the list? Personally I thought it was invaluable in that it was an impressive archive of music reaching back to the 1950's etc - but also found that old bulletin board mentality amongst users - in that they have some bloated sense of status due to a ratio system and feeling some kind of vague importance for having been the first person to leak an unreleased record or upload something they have just bought. This arrogance used to be reserved only for the smug assholes 10 yrs ago who ran record shops and felt so superior for sitting on the other side of the counter. I saw my releases on Oink quite often and didn't really think anything more than it being publicity - and we all have to have faith that if someone likes something enough they will at least consider buying it ... unfortunately the truth is that most people have just become inherently lazy about anything and everthing in life. The scary thing is that the layperson has accepted that it is morally ok to download anything from the internet because 'everyone else does' - it is just group mentality - if you jump an intersection on a red light - most people will just follow blindly because the person infront is doing the same. In a country like Australia the results of people downloading all of their forms of entertainment illegitimately from the internet can be seen by the insane pricing of games / DVDs / music - also movie ticket prices are phenomenal. I ain't no tight arse on my moral high horse, but this whole debate is a huge litmus indicator showing more about the general fibre of society currently .. people really don't give a fuck about the long term effects of fulfilling their own little selfish wants and needs in the short term. Tim K. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

By scapegoat, i mean "they"re always putting the blame on the fact that illegal downloads are the result in a decrease in music purchases.... If you ask me, i'd personally say it's the tsunami of incredibly shitty music that is resulting in a decrease in music purchases. Ironic that a band like radiohead would be the one's releasing their CD for free online, when they're one of a handful of 'major' bands that i would actually drop cash on. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org