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There is no exact definition for this, but I would say 3 5 minute songs = an ep. Technically, a 'single' is ONE song (or a/b side), but ep means 'extended play', so a single which is an extended mix could be an ep. These terms are left over from the days of 7" vs. 12"s, when most (but not all - I recall 7" eps in the 1950s which played at 33.3 rpm) things fit into easier categories. Still, when we're talking digital media, I refer to a single as one/two tracks which are either normal LP edits (if they come from an LP, which is where we get the notion of 'single'). And to muddy it up further, for example, the new Bass Communion LP is 2 tracks, totaling about 40 minutes of music. Then you have Pub's "Single" which clocks in at just under 70 minutes. :-) jeff steven roeder wrote:

quoted 16 lines do you consider three roughly 5 minute songs to be an ep or a single? i

>do you consider three roughly 5 minute songs to be an ep or a single? i >always thought of it like this: > >1-3 single > >4-7 ep > >8 - whatever else fits on the record full length > >anymore - into double record territory > >have i got it all wrong? is a single restricted to one song and >a b-side / remix and thats it? > > >

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According to my understanding of Uk Chart Regulations (according to the BPI) The following fit the defintion of a single; if I remember rightly from the time I worked in record shops and also reading music week. All other formats are not eligible to inclusion in the 'singles chart', but I don't think too many of us here are expecting to break th top 40 in a hurry! You might qualify for the 'Budget Albums chart'(i think is what its called) instead! (as did rock band 3 Colours Red with their Paralyse Ep in 1998, which at four songs, found themselves no.1 in the budget albums chart.) i)Three tracks or less on a 5" or 3" CD (must not exceed 25 minutes in total) ii)A DVD single featuring 1 Video track and no more than 2 audio tracks iii)Digital Download iv)7" v)12" not exceeding 25 minutes total vi)Cassette Only three of the above formats are eligible for inclusion in the UK charts, as specified by record company.Sorry if im wrong, but thats my understanding of it Graham __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 13 lines There is no exact definition for this, but I would say 3 5 minute

>There is no exact definition for this, but I would say 3 5 minute >songs = an ep. >Technically, a 'single' is ONE song (or a/b side), but ep means >'extended play', so a single which is an extended mix could be an ep. >These terms are left over from the days of 7" vs. 12"s, when most >(but not all - I recall 7" eps in the 1950s which played at 33.3 >rpm) things fit >into easier categories. Still, when we're talking digital media, I >refer to a single as one/two tracks which are either normal LP edits >(if they come from an LP, which is where we get the notion of >'single'). And to muddy it up further, for example, the new Bass >Communion LP is 2 tracks, totaling about 40 minutes of music. >Then you have Pub's "Single" which clocks in at just under 70 minutes. :-)

i would tend to factor in progam length as well as the title and importance of the tracks when considering the difference as well. for example, a 7" or 12" single, or even a CD equivalent, could contain 3 songs instead of 2 (especially in the latter two cases), but usually two things are true: the title of the first track is the title of the entire release, and the other 2 tracks are shorter. i would also consider it a single if one or more of the other tracks is simply a remix/alternate version of the first one. actually, i think that goes for even if there are more than 3 tracks total, such as depeche mode singles that have 5+ different remixers tackling the same song, plus maybe an acoustic demo version. on the other hand, if the 3 tracks are of equal importance and length, and the release has a title different from any of the tracks, then i'd consider it an EP, especially if none of the tracks appear on a full-length album, and the release is intended to stand on its own rather than promote an existing or upcoming album. also, a total time of 20-30 minutes feels more like an EP than a single, which is usually less than that (of course, the orb's "blue room" is the most famous example of that being broken). certainly there are exceptions or hybrids of thoseexamples that exist, but that's what i think are the basic criteria. d.

quoted 22 lines steven roeder wrote:

>steven roeder wrote: > >>do you consider three roughly 5 minute songs to be an ep or a single? i >>always thought of it like this: >> >>1-3 single >> >>4-7 ep >> >>8 - whatever else fits on the record full length >>anymore - into double record territory >> >>have i got it all wrong? is a single restricted to one song and >>a b-side / remix and thats it? >> >> > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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quoted 9 lines on a full-length album, and the release is intended

> on a full-length album, and the release is intended > to stand on its > own rather than promote an existing or upcoming > album. also, a total > time of 20-30 minutes feels more like an EP than a > single, which is > usually less than that (of course, the orb's "blue > room" is the most > famous example of that being broken).

At the time of release of Blue Room (1992), the Uk chart regulkations were a little less tringnt than they are now: i)four seperate tracks up to 25 mi nutes in length or ii)Up to EIGHT mixes of the same track totalling less than 40 minutes maximum. As Blue Room was a solitary mix of a single track lasting 39m58s (the two extra seconds required for the CD runoff time at the beginning and end), it thus qualified as a single under the then current regulations (with its companion 2nd cd). Since the rules changed, it would now be classified as an album in its own right. Graham __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

according to SOCAN any thing less the 45 mins of music is not considered a full length... so I tend to follow the standards of the folks at socan since they provide me with money for airplay and grants to record records ... so to me any thing less then 45 mins is an ep and 46 mins and above is a full length... how ever this is candian standards... On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, steven roeder wrote:

quoted 21 lines do you consider three roughly 5 minute songs to be an ep or a single? i

> do you consider three roughly 5 minute songs to be an ep or a single? i > always thought of it like this: > > 1-3 single > > 4-7 ep > > 8 - whatever else fits on the record full length > > anymore - into double record territory > > have i got it all wrong? is a single restricted to one song and > a b-side / remix and thats it? > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Outgun.com free e-mail @ www.outgun.com > Check out our Premium services - POP3 downloading, e-mail forwarding, and 25MB mailboxes! > > Powered by Outblaze >

================================ naw/neil wiernik artist site: www.naw.phoniq.net releases available on: www.noisefactoryrecords.com www.pertin-nce.com projects: www.vagueterrain.net www.phoniq.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On 1/13/06, steven roeder <crashsick@outgun.com> wrote:

quoted 14 lines do you consider three roughly 5 minute songs to be an ep or a single? i

> > do you consider three roughly 5 minute songs to be an ep or a single? i > always thought of it like this: > > 1-3 single > > 4-7 ep > > 8 - whatever else fits on the record full length > > anymore - into double record territory > > have i got it all wrong? is a single restricted to one song and > a b-side / remix and thats it?

I've always looked at is as more of a remix vs. new songs thing. In my head a single typically has the original version, maybe an original b-side and then remixes of at least the title track but possibly more songs as well. An EP is made up primarily of new tracks. I think of Aphex Twin's Ventolin as a double single, even though it's usually called an EP. Donkey Rhubarb is an EP, even though it's shorter in length. i0

thuis is a single http://www.archive.org/details/seriouslymynameistheproducerandthisistheworkhttpwwwgrepfunetacidmeatsockacidsd110flpogg On 1/13/06, steven roeder <crashsick@outgun.com> wrote:

quoted 22 lines do you consider three roughly 5 minute songs to be an ep or a single? i

> do you consider three roughly 5 minute songs to be an ep or a single? i > always thought of it like this: > > 1-3 single > > 4-7 ep > > 8 - whatever else fits on the record full length > > anymore - into double record territory > > have i got it all wrong? is a single restricted to one song and > a b-side / remix and thats it? > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Outgun.com free e-mail @ www.outgun.com > Check out our Premium services - POP3 downloading, e-mail forwarding, and 25MB mailboxes! > > Powered by Outblaze > >

-- pete lastname meatsock@gmail.com www.grep-fu.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Well - following those guidelines, a good chunk of the MORR catalogue doesn't make it to full length! I think that before one adopts one of another guidelines what what one is calling what, a good look at the platform for which said guideline is designed to 'service' is in order. To some degree, categories are arbitrary constructions. Obviously, definitions need to be rethought in light of changing media and changing mediums. The boundaries which distinguished record size and length, as well as the guidelines which determined what would be marketed or playlisted as this or that may need to be rethought for those who really aren't interested in Billboard charts or runtimes. Nothing is simple any more. Well, it never was, really. Maybe it's not as easy to pretend. :-) jeff -------------- Original message ----------------------

quoted 7 lines according to SOCAN any thing less the 45 mins of music is not

> according to SOCAN any thing less the 45 mins of music is not > considered a full length... > so I tend to follow the standards of the folks at socan since they > provide me with money > for airplay and grants to record records ... so to me any thing less then > 45 mins is an ep and 46 mins and above is a full length... > how ever this is candian standards...

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Given those guidelines, a significant chunk of the MORR catalogue must be redubbed as eps! I think that before one adopt this or that guideline, one has to look at the usefulness of that guideline for the needs at hand. Obviously, evolving technology, changing mediums and media have shed light on the arbitrary nature of categories designed to address certain needs and specific epochs. I'm not sure how useful the guidelines which determine Billboard playlists, radio formatting or marketing rules are in light of music which will rarely find its way into any of the aforementioned arenas - just as I'm not certain the older and just as arbitrary categories that are based on the physical size of the media apply to music which often exists only on drives in cyberspace. Nothing is simple these days. Actually, it never was. Maybe it's just less easy to pretend. jeff -------------- Original message ----------------------

quoted 8 lines according to SOCAN any thing less the 45 mins of music is not

> > according to SOCAN any thing less the 45 mins of music is not > considered a full length... > so I tend to follow the standards of the folks at socan since they > provide me with money > for airplay and grants to record records ... so to me any thing less then > 45 mins is an ep and 46 mins and above is a full length... > how ever this is candian standards...

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Damn - I didn't think the first one sent...and with all those typos. :-( --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I apologies; I did not intend to sound quite so standoff-ish, or to challenge your relationship with SOCAN. I understand that I am a bit naive/idealistic, But calling something an EP just because it's under 45 minutes just doesn't sit well with me. ------------------------------------- http://myosound.com http://clouds-out.myosound.com On Jan 13, 2006, at 12:09 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote:

quoted 83 lines cory Im not disputing you but as a muscian I tend to want to follow

> > cory Im not disputing you but as a muscian I tend to want to follow > the standard for the folks that are giving me money for my music... > > > On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, Cory O'Brien wrote: > >> But what about punk rock records that have 24 tracks and are only 35 >> minutes? Are they an ep? >> >> I tend to think like this: >> >> Single = 1 or 2 songs with any number of remixes or supporting tracks. >> >> EP = 3-5 tracks that are not a coherent release. They are usually >> tracks that don't fit on an LP >> but are still release worthy. >> >> LP = 1-99 tracks that ARE a coherent release, and/or convey a >> specific meaning or intention. >> My acid test for an LP is whether or not I can sit down and listen to >> the whole thing in one sitting, >> And walk away feeling like I've experienced something (good or bad is >> a whole 'nother thing). >> >> Cory >> >> ------------------------------------- >> http://myosound.com >> http://clouds-out.myosound.com >> >> >> On Jan 13, 2006, at 11:30 AM, Neil Wiernik wrote: >> >>> according to SOCAN any thing less the 45 mins of music is not >>> considered a full length... >>> so I tend to follow the standards of the folks at socan since they >>> provide me with money for airplay and grants to record records ... >>> so to me any thing less then 45 mins is an ep and 46 mins and above >>> is a full length... >>> how ever this is candian standards... >>> On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, steven roeder wrote: >>>> do you consider three roughly 5 minute songs to be an ep or a >>>> single? i >>>> always thought of it like this: >>>> 1-3 single >>>> 4-7 ep >>>> 8 - whatever else fits on the record full length >>>> anymore - into double record territory >>>> have i got it all wrong? is a single restricted to one song and >>>> a b-side / remix and thats it? >>>> -- >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Outgun.com free e-mail @ www.outgun.com >>>> Check out our Premium services - POP3 downloading, e-mail >>>> forwarding, and 25MB mailboxes! >>>> Powered by Outblaze >>> ================================ >>> naw/neil wiernik >>> artist site: >>> www.naw.phoniq.net >>> releases available on: >>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com >>> www.pertin-nce.com >>> projects: >>> www.vagueterrain.net >>> www.phoniq.net >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >> > > ================================ > naw/neil wiernik > artist site: > www.naw.phoniq.net > releases available on: > www.noisefactoryrecords.com > www.pertin-nce.com > projects: > www.vagueterrain.net > www.phoniq.net >

well take that up with socan www.socan.ca Im just a canadian musican ... On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, Cory O'Brien wrote:

quoted 96 lines I apologies; I did not intend to sound quite so standoff-ish, or to challenge

> I apologies; I did not intend to sound quite so standoff-ish, or to challenge > your relationship with SOCAN. > I understand that I am a bit naive/idealistic, But calling something an EP > just because it's under 45 minutes > just doesn't sit well with me. > > > > ------------------------------------- > http://myosound.com > http://clouds-out.myosound.com > > On Jan 13, 2006, at 12:09 PM, Neil Wiernik wrote: > >> >> cory Im not disputing you but as a muscian I tend to want to follow the >> standard for the folks that are giving me money for my music... >> >> >> On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, Cory O'Brien wrote: >> >>> But what about punk rock records that have 24 tracks and are only 35 >>> minutes? Are they an ep? >>> >>> I tend to think like this: >>> >>> Single = 1 or 2 songs with any number of remixes or supporting tracks. >>> >>> EP = 3-5 tracks that are not a coherent release. They are usually tracks >>> that don't fit on an LP >>> but are still release worthy. >>> >>> LP = 1-99 tracks that ARE a coherent release, and/or convey a specific >>> meaning or intention. >>> My acid test for an LP is whether or not I can sit down and listen to the >>> whole thing in one sitting, >>> And walk away feeling like I've experienced something (good or bad is a >>> whole 'nother thing). >>> >>> Cory >>> >>> ------------------------------------- >>> http://myosound.com >>> http://clouds-out.myosound.com >>> >>> >>> On Jan 13, 2006, at 11:30 AM, Neil Wiernik wrote: >>> >>>> according to SOCAN any thing less the 45 mins of music is not considered a >>>> full length... >>>> so I tend to follow the standards of the folks at socan since they provide >>>> me with money for airplay and grants to record records ... so to me any >>>> thing less then 45 mins is an ep and 46 mins and above is a full length... >>>> how ever this is candian standards... >>>> On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, steven roeder wrote: >>>>> do you consider three roughly 5 minute songs to be an ep or a single? i >>>>> always thought of it like this: >>>>> 1-3 single >>>>> 4-7 ep >>>>> 8 - whatever else fits on the record full length >>>>> anymore - into double record territory >>>>> have i got it all wrong? is a single restricted to one song and >>>>> a b-side / remix and thats it? >>>>> -- >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Outgun.com free e-mail @ www.outgun.com >>>>> Check out our Premium services - POP3 downloading, e-mail forwarding, and >>>>> 25MB mailboxes! >>>>> Powered by Outblaze >>>> ================================ >>>> naw/neil wiernik >>>> artist site: >>>> www.naw.phoniq.net >>>> releases available on: >>>> www.noisefactoryrecords.com >>>> www.pertin-nce.com >>>> projects: >>>> www.vagueterrain.net >>>> www.phoniq.net >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >>> >> >> ================================ >> naw/neil wiernik >> artist site: >> www.naw.phoniq.net >> releases available on: >> www.noisefactoryrecords.com >> www.pertin-nce.com >> projects: >> www.vagueterrain.net >> www.phoniq.net >> >

================================ naw/neil wiernik artist site: www.naw.phoniq.net releases available on: www.noisefactoryrecords.com www.pertin-nce.com projects: www.vagueterrain.net www.phoniq.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i think i like this train of thought over the rest. especialy the second part. i don't care about charting or any other nonsense. i just don't want to give the wrong impression when presenting the work to the listener. for some reason its just ingrained in me that anything less then 4 songs is a single. i need to kick that. im trying to figure out where i get that idea. i guess anti has three songs and even states on the cd that its a ep. this is a good thing. thanks steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "chthonic streams" To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] is 3 songs an ep or a single? Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:13:41 -0500 i would tend to factor in progam length as well as the title and importance of the tracks when considering the difference as well. for example, a 7" or 12" single, or even a CD equivalent, could contain 3 songs instead of 2 (especially in the latter two cases), but usually two things are true: the title of the first track is the title of the entire release, and the other 2 tracks are shorter. i would also consider it a single if one or more of the other tracks is simply a remix/alternate version of the first one. actually, i think that goes for even if there are more than 3 tracks total, such as depeche mode singles that have 5+ different remixers tackling the same song, plus maybe an acoustic demo version. on the other hand, if the 3 tracks are of equal importance and length, and the release has a title different from any of the tracks, then i'd consider it an EP, especially if none of the tracks appear on a full-length album, and the release is intended to stand on its own rather than promote an existing or upcoming album. also, a total time of 20-30 minutes feels more like an EP than a single, which is usually less than that (of course, the orb's "blue room" is the most famous example of that being broken). certainly there are exceptions or hybrids of thoseexamples that exist, but that's what i think are the basic criteria. d. -- _______________________________________________ Outgun.com free e-mail @ www.outgun.com Check out our Premium services - POP3 downloading, e-mail forwarding, and 25MB mailboxes! Powered by Outblaze