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[idm] why small labels die

13 messages · 13 participants · spans 1 day · search this subject
◇ merged from 4 subjects: r.i.p. mego · r.i.p. neo ouija (..and merck/piehead/component) ??? · r.i.p. small labels · why small labels die
2006-01-10 16:37[idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
├─ 2006-01-10 16:42mantrakid Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
├─ 2006-01-10 16:48thorsten sideb0ard Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
│ └─ 2006-01-10 17:26cutups RE: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
├─ 2006-01-10 16:59Alan Lucas Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
└─ 2006-01-10 17:16Walkman Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
└─ 2006-01-11 00:04nat hawks Re: [idm] r.i.p. MEGO
2006-01-10 17:22kiya iamacopier babzani Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
└─ 2006-01-10 19:32Adam Piontek Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
└─ 2006-01-11 06:09Scarcelight Recordings Re: [idm] r.i.p. SMALL LABELS
└─ 2006-01-11 08:10Enquiries Re: [idm] r.i.p. SMALL LABELS
└─ 2006-01-11 08:41Rick Strom [idm] why small labels die
2006-01-11 17:00David @ Audiobulb Re: [idm] why small labels die
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2006-01-10 16:37pietrobot@digitalnimbus.comhere's the latest label to close-up: NEO OUIJA :: http://neoouija.co.uk/neo so, here's the
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Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:37:56 -0500
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[idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
permalink · <1136911076.43c3e2e4c2324@webmail.digitalnimbus.com>
here's the latest label to close-up: NEO OUIJA :: http://neoouija.co.uk/neo so, here's the count in the last month: 1. merck: http://m3rck.net 2. piehead: http://pieheadrecords.com 3. component: http://componentrecords.com 4. neo ouija: http://neoouija.co.uk/neo @_@ pietro. :: DIGITAL::NIMBUS :: Electronic Audio Freakquencies KUCI 88.9 FM, Friday Nights 12-3am (PST) http://digitalnimbus.com :: http://kuci.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2006-01-10 16:42mantrakidI think its a marketing scheme and theyre actually forming one giant mega label like voltr
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mantrakid
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Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:42:26 -0700
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Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
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[idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
permalink · <43C3E3F2.9030105@neferiu.com>
I think its a marketing scheme and theyre actually forming one giant mega label like voltron with the single goal of eliminating pop country music once and for all. pietrobot@digitalnimbus.com wrote:
quoted 28 lines here's the latest label to close-up:>here's the latest label to close-up: > >NEO OUIJA :: http://neoouija.co.uk/neo > >so, here's the count in the last month: > >1. merck: http://m3rck.net >2. piehead: http://pieheadrecords.com >3. component: http://componentrecords.com >4. neo ouija: http://neoouija.co.uk/neo > >@_@ > >pietro. >:: >DIGITAL::NIMBUS :: Electronic Audio Freakquencies >KUCI 88.9 FM, Friday Nights 12-3am (PST) >http://digitalnimbus.com :: http://kuci.org > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > >
-- www.neferiu.com <http://www.neferiu.com> www.neferiu.com calgary *·* alberta 403*·*852*·*6801 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2006-01-10 16:48thorsten sideb0ard> so, here's the count in the last month: > > 1. merck: http://m3rck.net > 2. piehead: htt
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thorsten sideb0ard
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Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:48:10 +0000
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Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
Reply to:
[idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
permalink · <isvyoa.m2c93q@webmail.livedns.co.uk>
quoted 6 lines so, here's the count in the last month:> so, here's the count in the last month: > > 1. merck: http://m3rck.net > 2. piehead: http://pieheadrecords.com > 3. component: http://componentrecords.com > 4. neo ouija: http://neoouija.co.uk/neo
Thats really scary, i didnt realise all them were closing shop. wow. Plus Grooves magazine as well (as a print entity anyway). All american as well, i wonder how much that has to do with it. I find the US market for Electronic Music completely non-existent these days. Whereas we are doing really well in the UK, Europe and Japan, i've not had any correspondence with my US distributor for about six months, i.e. they dropped my lame selling ass. I now only do a little bit of US press these days, to people i know who are interested in our material. As for trying to find new distribution - well, you can forget it. Yet paradoxically, i usually sell 6 times as many mp3 downloads (electronic) via the US itunes as i do anywhere else in the world. Its either that the US market has moved ahead of everyone else and adopted digital download as their preferred Distribution means, or else iTunes is filling the gap that the other distributors and stores are leaving open. thor --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2006-01-10 17:26cutupsNeo Ouija isn't American I don't believe. But still...i do see a lot of people buying (or
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cutups
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Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:26:24 -0500
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RE: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
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Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
permalink · <20060110170817.D6E2027D51B@smtp-ext-02.mx.pitdc1.expedient.net>
Neo Ouija isn't American I don't believe. But still...i do see a lot of people buying (or stealing) digital only copies...more than ever before. --- WRECKED electronic music mailorder http://wrecked-distro.com -----Original Message----- From: thorsten sideb0ard [mailto:thorsten@highpointlowlife.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:48 AM To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
quoted 6 lines so, here's the count in the last month:> so, here's the count in the last month: > > 1. merck: http://m3rck.net > 2. piehead: http://pieheadrecords.com > 3. component: http://componentrecords.com > 4. neo ouija: http://neoouija.co.uk/neo
Thats really scary, i didnt realise all them were closing shop. wow. Plus Grooves magazine as well (as a print entity anyway). All american as well, i wonder how much that has to do with it. I find the US market for Electronic Music completely non-existent these days. Whereas we are doing really well in the UK, Europe and Japan, i've not had any correspondence with my US distributor for about six months, i.e. they dropped my lame selling ass. I now only do a little bit of US press these days, to people i know who are interested in our material. As for trying to find new distribution - well, you can forget it. Yet paradoxically, i usually sell 6 times as many mp3 downloads (electronic) via the US itunes as i do anywhere else in the world. Its either that the US market has moved ahead of everyone else and adopted digital download as their preferred Distribution means, or else iTunes is filling the gap that the other distributors and stores are leaving open. thor --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2006-01-10 16:59Alan LucasOn 1/10/06, pietrobot@digitalnimbus.com <pietrobot@digitalnimbus.com> wrote: > here's the
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Alan Lucas
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Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:59:22 -0500
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Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
Reply to:
[idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
permalink · <5e21321c0601100859o2fa1b6d6j5f23319f188e79e1@mail.gmail.com>
On 1/10/06, pietrobot@digitalnimbus.com <pietrobot@digitalnimbus.com> wrote:
quoted 4 lines here's the latest label to close-up:> here's the latest label to close-up: > > NEO OUIJA :: http://neoouija.co.uk/neo >
Sucks. I always dug most of the stuff that came out on Neo. I hope that Lee is OK and will still be able to do stuff as Metamatics/Norken/etc... 3JakAndDive was one of my faves of 2005. Aw poop. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2006-01-10 17:16Walkmanthat is the saddest news i've heard this year. i somehow dont believe its because of the i
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Walkman
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Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:16:49 +0200 (EET)
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Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
Reply to:
[idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
permalink · <1494.213.197.142.102.1136913409.squirrel@www.parkas.lt>
that is the saddest news i've heard this year. i somehow dont believe its because of the illness... Walkman www.sutemos.net
quoted 27 lines here's the latest label to close-up:> here's the latest label to close-up: > > NEO OUIJA :: http://neoouija.co.uk/neo > > so, here's the count in the last month: > > 1. merck: http://m3rck.net > 2. piehead: http://pieheadrecords.com > 3. component: http://componentrecords.com > 4. neo ouija: http://neoouija.co.uk/neo > > @_@ > > pietro. > :: > DIGITAL::NIMBUS :: Electronic Audio Freakquencies > KUCI 88.9 FM, Friday Nights 12-3am (PST) > http://digitalnimbus.com :: http://kuci.org > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2006-01-11 00:04nat hawksto add to the list... http://www.warprecords.com The esteemed and brilliant label Mego has
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nat hawks
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Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:04:03 -0500
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Re: [idm] r.i.p. MEGO
Reply to:
Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
permalink · <BAY110-F3160EC68DDE3C0BC61A0B5CD240@phx.gbl>
to add to the list... http://www.warprecords.com The esteemed and brilliant label Mego has shut up shop at the end of 2005. Don't worry however as it's reopening as Mego Editions. However,this means LAST CHANCE TO BUY current Mego stock at Warpmart before alot of it disappears forever. Go to the browse tab and select Mego to see which titles we have in stock. We will gradually take things off the site and will have no mego stock by the end of the month, so be quick. Mego Editions First Release will be mid January Regards Mart
quoted 46 lines From: "Walkman" <walkman@sutemos.net>>From: "Walkman" <walkman@sutemos.net> >Reply-To: walkman@sutemos.net >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ??? >Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:16:49 +0200 (EET) > >that is the saddest news i've heard this year. >i somehow dont believe its because of the illness... > >Walkman >www.sutemos.net > > > here's the latest label to close-up: > > > > NEO OUIJA :: http://neoouija.co.uk/neo > > > > so, here's the count in the last month: > > > > 1. merck: http://m3rck.net > > 2. piehead: http://pieheadrecords.com > > 3. component: http://componentrecords.com > > 4. neo ouija: http://neoouija.co.uk/neo > > > > @_@ > > > > pietro. > > :: > > DIGITAL::NIMBUS :: Electronic Audio Freakquencies > > KUCI 88.9 FM, Friday Nights 12-3am (PST) > > http://digitalnimbus.com :: http://kuci.org > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2006-01-10 17:22kiya iamacopier babzani> All american as well, i wonder how much that has to do with it. I find the US > market f
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kiya iamacopier babzani
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thorsten sideb0ard ,
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Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:22:20 -0800
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Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
permalink · <008b01c6160a$6a7e8b80$230056d1@gqhlamec>
quoted 3 lines All american as well, i wonder how much that has to do with it. I find the US> All american as well, i wonder how much that has to do with it. I find the US > market for Electronic Music completely non-existent these days. Whereas we are > doing really well in the UK, Europe and Japan,
i totally agree. indie rock killed idm in america. discuss. -kiya --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2006-01-10 19:32Adam Piontekkiya iamacopier babzani wrote: >>All american as well, i wonder how much that has to do wi
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Adam Piontek
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Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:32:22 -0500
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Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
Reply to:
Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
permalink · <43C40BC6.3020405@damek.org>
kiya iamacopier babzani wrote:
quoted 7 lines All american as well, i wonder how much that has to do with it. I find the US>>All american as well, i wonder how much that has to do with it. I find the US >>market for Electronic Music completely non-existent these days. Whereas we are >>doing really well in the UK, Europe and Japan, > > i totally agree. > indie rock killed idm in america. > discuss.
Maybe. Sorta. IDM is still not for everyone, most people like bands with recognizable instruments. Browse Amazon and you see heavily Pitchfork/Indierock influenced lists of favorites. I also think the economy here in the US has something to do with it. Doesn't anyone else see a link between the popularity of electronic/computer music and the dot-com boom? Now that it's bust, people who would be doing such things have less time/money to do so. But the people who would be picking up guitars and forming bands are still trying to be rock stars. Mind you, I'm not establishing a qualitative judgement between these different camps, just wondering if a booming economy favors one more than the other. -Adam damek.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2006-01-11 06:09Scarcelight Recordingsanyone thought about there being a connection between mp3 downloading and inability (by la
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Scarcelight Recordings
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Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:09:51 -0800 (PST)
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Re: [idm] r.i.p. SMALL LABELS
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Re: [idm] r.i.p. NEO OUIJA (..and merck/piehead/component) ???
permalink · <20060111060951.55721.qmail@web60316.mail.yahoo.com>
anyone thought about there being a connection between mp3 downloading and inability (by labels) to sale physical product ? we've been saying in the scarcelight newsletter for awhile now that IF you like what you hear when downloading then please buy a hardcopy, it enables labels to continue releasing music. certainly NOT saying that its all there is to it, but it certainly seems to have some part. --- Adam Piontek <adam@damek.org> wrote:
quoted 40 lines kiya iamacopier babzani wrote:> kiya iamacopier babzani wrote: > >>All american as well, i wonder how much that has > to do with it. I find the US > >>market for Electronic Music completely > non-existent these days. Whereas we are > >>doing really well in the UK, Europe and Japan, > > > > i totally agree. > > indie rock killed idm in america. > > discuss. > > Maybe. Sorta. IDM is still not for everyone, most > people like bands > with recognizable instruments. Browse Amazon and > you see heavily > Pitchfork/Indierock influenced lists of favorites. > > I also think the economy here in the US has > something to do with it. > Doesn't anyone else see a link between the > popularity of > electronic/computer music and the dot-com boom? Now > that it's bust, > people who would be doing such things have less > time/money to do so. > > But the people who would be picking up guitars and > forming bands are > still trying to be rock stars. > > Mind you, I'm not establishing a qualitative > judgement between these > different camps, just wondering if a booming economy > favors one more > than the other. > > -Adam > damek.org > >
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2006-01-11 08:10Enquiries> anyone thought about there being a connection between > mp3 downloading and inability (b
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Enquiries
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Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:10:28 +0000
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Re: [idm] r.i.p. SMALL LABELS
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Re: [idm] r.i.p. SMALL LABELS
permalink · <BFEA6DF4.19304%enquiries@eleventhvolume.com>
quoted 9 lines anyone thought about there being a connection between> anyone thought about there being a connection between > mp3 downloading and inability (by labels) to sale > physical product ? > > we've been saying in the scarcelight newsletter for > awhile now > that IF you like what you hear when downloading then > please buy a hardcopy, it enables labels to continue > releasing music.
Have you heard about Jane Siberry's approach? Her website, complete with open letter regarding "self-determined pricing" can be found at http://www.sheeba.ca/ Cheers, Colin. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2006-01-11 08:41Rick Strom>> anyone thought about there being a connection between >> mp3 downloading and inability
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Rick Strom
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Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:41:26 -0800 (PST)
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[idm] why small labels die
Reply to:
Re: [idm] r.i.p. SMALL LABELS
permalink · <33236.68.171.55.65.1136968886.squirrel@68.171.55.65>
quoted 3 lines anyone thought about there being a connection between>> anyone thought about there being a connection between >> mp3 downloading and inability (by labels) to sale >> physical product ?
I'm really surprised no one has pointed out that a lot of these dying labels have absolutely horrid business sense, and in many cases had become so incestuous it was ridiculous. Hardly an album pressed and offered up for sale anymore isn't by the label owner or one of his former schoolmates. I had typed up a long analysis for this list of the current state of things, back around August or so, but I ended up just sending it off to a friend instead. But among the things I griped about were a number of the labels we expect to bring us great music we'd probably not otherwise be privy to instead delivering the masturbatory crap they or their friends put together. Simultaneously, I saw an audience who had fallen into the same label-lust that the old big labels used to profit from endlessly, and still do I suppose. Discussion on this list and elsewhere seldom involved an artist who wasn't released on one of those precious labels, even though the artists who couldn't get a Merck or Neo Ouija or Skam or certainly Warp to hear them were doing great great stuff. What I predicted was that at some point it would have to give. At some point, the audience would get tired of it, and the labels, too swolen with "god damn we're k3wl" ego would fail to adjust. Want to hear that new XX Records release? Fuck it, their last 5 sucked, I'll download it first. Why take a chance? That's not a very clever prediction. That's exactly what happened with Big Music, just on a much smaller scale. Have a listen to some of the netradio you know about. Sistrum System has gotten really, _really_ good lately, and it didn't surprise me to see that something like 95% of the playlist is coming from netlabels -- free music that couldn't, for whatever reason, find a label to get behind it. Even the Russian music is blowing away the officially released stuff. Russian music! Who would have guessed? Cliqhop has been great too, too. Glowdot is the only one playing the label shit, and its old stuff, and even then that's only because I haven't updated it in 6 months, maybe more. There just hasn't been anything of interest to me. And the netlabel stuff is out there for download, so why stream it really? (especially when Systrum is doing such a good job). The short point is, I guess, let's not fall into that "mp3 killed..." excuse. Its no more true of idm than it was of Brittney Spears. If you feel like the labels are putting out quality albums, you want to support it. You buy it. I always have. If its shit, though.... I'm just done paying for so-and-so's friend's new album. No more. (I am sad to see Merck go, though) -- V, ~Rick Strom Glowdot Productions On Glowfoto: http://users.glowfoto.com/Strom ============================ Photo: http://www.glowfoto.com Music: http://www.glowdot.com Strom: http://www.rick-strom.com Code: http://www.stromcode.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2006-01-11 17:00David @ Audiobulbaudiobulb is still alive and kicking and from a roster of 15 people - i had only met one o
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David @ Audiobulb
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Date:
Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:00:01 -0000
Subject:
Re: [idm] why small labels die
permalink · <005601c616d1$39b29a60$19e1a850@BEPPC>
audiobulb is still alive and kicking and from a roster of 15 people - i had only met one of them when we started out i have now had the privaledge of meeting 5! the ideas was always to get artists from diff corners of the world & therefore develop a set of sounds that had similarities - but cultural differences add to interesting artistic differences.... it is an important point though.... please support the labels you like through purchases when you can.... we often sell CDs at a much lower price than shops or the majors..... the more you support - the more a label like audiobulb and others can develop - take risks - try new things and bring on new artists..... personally i would hate the dynamics of having to release the music of a "mate" - you lose perspective and objectivity.... you have to put out what you love - because the music moves you.... david @ audiobulb www.audiobulb.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Strom" <rick@glowdot.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:41 AM Subject: [idm] why small labels die
quoted 71 lines anyone thought about there being a connection between>>> anyone thought about there being a connection between >>> mp3 downloading and inability (by labels) to sale >>> physical product ? > > I'm really surprised no one has pointed out that a lot of these dying > labels have absolutely horrid business sense, and in many cases had become > so incestuous it was ridiculous. Hardly an album pressed and offered up > for sale anymore isn't by the label owner or one of his former > schoolmates. > > I had typed up a long analysis for this list of the current state of > things, back around August or so, but I ended up just sending it off to a > friend instead. But among the things I griped about were a number of the > labels we expect to bring us great music we'd probably not otherwise be > privy to instead delivering the masturbatory crap they or their friends > put together. Simultaneously, I saw an audience who had fallen into the > same label-lust that the old big labels used to profit from endlessly, and > still do I suppose. Discussion on this list and elsewhere seldom involved > an artist who wasn't released on one of those precious labels, even though > the artists who couldn't get a Merck or Neo Ouija or Skam or certainly > Warp to hear them were doing great great stuff. > > What I predicted was that at some point it would have to give. At some > point, the audience would get tired of it, and the labels, too swolen with > "god damn we're k3wl" ego would fail to adjust. > > Want to hear that new XX Records release? Fuck it, their last 5 sucked, > I'll download it first. Why take a chance? > > That's not a very clever prediction. That's exactly what happened with > Big Music, just on a much smaller scale. > > Have a listen to some of the netradio you know about. Sistrum System has > gotten really, _really_ good lately, and it didn't surprise me to see that > something like 95% of the playlist is coming from netlabels -- free music > that couldn't, for whatever reason, find a label to get behind it. Even > the Russian music is blowing away the officially released stuff. Russian > music! Who would have guessed? Cliqhop has been great too, too. Glowdot > is the only one playing the label shit, and its old stuff, and even then > that's only because I haven't updated it in 6 months, maybe more. There > just hasn't been anything of interest to me. And the netlabel stuff is > out there for download, so why stream it really? (especially when Systrum > is doing such a good job). > > The short point is, I guess, let's not fall into that "mp3 killed..." > excuse. Its no more true of idm than it was of Brittney Spears. If you > feel like the labels are putting out quality albums, you want to support > it. You buy it. I always have. If its shit, though.... > > I'm just done paying for so-and-so's friend's new album. No more. > > (I am sad to see Merck go, though) > > -- > V, > ~Rick Strom > Glowdot Productions > On Glowfoto: http://users.glowfoto.com/Strom > ============================ > Photo: http://www.glowfoto.com > Music: http://www.glowdot.com > Strom: http://www.rick-strom.com > Code: http://www.stromcode.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > >
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