IDM Mailing Archive

More up, all CD: Sultan:Osman (FAX), Blu Tribunl (Akufen, Freeform, Rio-Off Artist - sealed), Dub Tribunl (AtomTM, Rip-Off Artist, etc.), Logreybeam (Type), But Then Again (Fehlmann, Jelinek, Deadbeat, etc. on ~scape), Triola (Kompakt), Robert Henke (aka Monolake), Machine Drum (Merck), Public Image, Melchior, R.H. Kirk, Michael Johnson, Geiom (Neo-Ouija), The Users and the Gadgets, Pan/Tone (new 2xCD), Ilkae (Merck), Snax (1/2 of Capt. Comatose), Toucaen, E*Rock (Audio Dregs), Balboa (sealed), Jamie Lidell (Warp), Propellor (Mark Spybey), P'Taah, Cool As Ice (ACR/New Order production), Mission Two (Nature comp., featuring Passarani, Phoenicia, D'archangelo, etc.), more. No reseves. Thanks! *http://tinyurl.com/6xfdo* OR http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQgotopageZ1QQsassZQ2ajpkleinQ2aQQsorecordsperpageZ25QQsosortorderZ1QQsosortpropertyZ1 seller id = *jpklein* --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

not really knowing . but I see a lot of auction posts coming up on the list .. ... just wondering if the trade of CD's is not making more money for owners of music than the original artists? in a model where 'free' P2P trading is changing the artists cycle and eating the theoretical sale of music how does this now compare to the trading of physical second hand material, in a environment where the penchant 'copy' is the the norm ? .simon -- ......... ............. ......................................... . . . ... .. .............. // \\ feed your culture --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

turnstyle wrote:

quoted 7 lines not really knowing . but I see a lot of auction posts coming

> > > not really knowing . but I see a lot of auction posts coming > up on the list .. > > ... just wondering if the trade of CD's is not making more > money for owners of music than the original artists?

I have no idea what the original artists make, nor what "most sellers" make, but since it's my post, I'll reply. I lose money - I almost never make it. If I do make money on a sale, it's *far* outweighed by what I lose on other sales, paypal costs, eBay fees, packaging costs, sometimes eating part of shipping costs, freebies tossed in, etc. I do it because I will lose less if I do it and if I didn't do it, there's no way I could afford to dump the silly amount I dump into "the industry" on a weekly basis. As I am and end-user, I don't get deals or discounts. I pay full price and sell for 6.99 start bids. If you don't believe it, follow the URLs and see for yourself. It is the very rare disc which nets what I pay - and when you factor in the costs associated with selling, it gets rarer. So to answer your question, I really doubt it.

quoted 3 lines in a model where 'free' P2P trading is changing the artists cycle

> > in a model where 'free' P2P trading is changing the artists cycle > and eating the theoretical sale of music

How is selling a used item merit a comparison with P2P trading? Looks like an apples to oranges analogy imo. In terms of legalities, there is no comparison. If I felt I was stealing money from the artists (I would argue the contrary), I wouldn't do it. You'd be surprised how many of the artists buy from me, I from them and even sometimes send me things with the intent of having me make copies to tuck in as freebies so they can get their stuff heard. Not trying to be defensive, just replying. And forgive me if I'm covering ground already tread; this is the first post I see in my inbox having just gotten home from work. jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Nov 5, 2004, at 4:32 PM, theREALmxyzptlk wrote:

quoted 25 lines turnstyle wrote:

> turnstyle wrote: > >> >> >> not really knowing . but I see a lot of auction posts coming >> up on the list .. >> >> ... just wondering if the trade of CD's is not making more >> money for owners of music than the original artists? > > I have no idea what the original artists make, nor what "most sellers" > make, but since it's my post, I'll reply. > I lose money - I almost never make it. If I do make money on a sale, > it's *far* outweighed by what I lose on other sales, paypal costs, > eBay fees, packaging costs, sometimes eating part of shipping costs, > freebies tossed in, etc. I do it because I will lose less if I do it > and if I didn't do it, there's no way I could afford to dump the silly > amount I dump into "the industry" on a weekly basis. As I am and > end-user, I don't get deals or discounts. I pay full price and sell > for 6.99 start bids. > If you don't believe it, follow the URLs and see for yourself. It is > the very rare disc which nets what I pay - and when you factor in the > costs associated with selling, it gets rarer. So to answer your > question, I really doubt it. >

...... and i would have to agree. I would also have to add that sometimes i like the appreciation of being able to share with others the opportunity to have access to the Music. np: The JAMs--"All You Need Is Love" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Seriously... If somebody has bought one of my records and they are done listening to it, or even if they just stuck it on their iPod and want to ditch the physical copy, I'd much rather have them sell it to somebody else than have it languish in their stacks for years with nobody listening to it. If I make $3 off Jeff buying my record I'm happy. If Jeff then sells it on E-Bay to somebody else, and the bidder likes the record enough to buy a copy of my *next* record, that's another $3 for me. Hopefully Jeff buys a copy of that one too. Maybe both of these guys sell their copies on E-Bay and the system expands geometrically. Why do I care if they are making a buck off it? It's better than just having the record disappear, and the larger the audience for my music gets, the happier I am. Besides, distributors take more profit than E-bay auctioneers, and a lot of the time they're gonna rip off the label way worse than somebody sharing mp3s or auctioning original media. I don't know where the crossover point is where an artist gets popular enough that the increase in exposure gained by multiple owners of a single unit manages to be counteracted by the loss of revenue. My guess is it's probably around the saturation level reached by shitty bands with one Big Hit on the radio, who everybody's heard of but nobody really likes, so they'd rather get a discount used copy of the one album with the hit (or download it from Limewire) and never shell out for another record. But I think if an artist isn't putting out work with enough quality to warrant casual listeners converting into paying customers, then they aren't earning their keep. Why blame the customer for refusing to subsidize a band who doesn't deserve to be paid? That said: go buy my record. (String Theory - Radiovalerian LP/CD on Wobblyhead Records!!!) Maybe Jeff has a copy up for auction on EBay... but my guess is he probably liked it enough to hang on to it ;) Josh PS: I saw a copy of our SMAK 12" go for like $50 on EBay once. I was thrilled. theREALmxyzptlk wrote:

quoted 52 lines turnstyle wrote:

> turnstyle wrote: > >> >> >> not really knowing . but I see a lot of auction posts coming >> up on the list .. >> >> ... just wondering if the trade of CD's is not making more >> money for owners of music than the original artists? > > > I have no idea what the original artists make, nor what "most sellers" > make, but since it's my post, I'll reply. > I lose money - I almost never make it. If I do make money on a sale, > it's *far* outweighed by what I lose on other sales, paypal costs, > eBay fees, packaging costs, sometimes eating part of shipping costs, > freebies tossed in, etc. I do it because I will lose less if I do it > and if I didn't do it, there's no way I could afford to dump the silly > amount I dump into "the industry" on a weekly basis. As I am and > end-user, I don't get deals or discounts. I pay full price and sell > for 6.99 start bids. > If you don't believe it, follow the URLs and see for yourself. It is > the very rare disc which nets what I pay - and when you factor in the > costs associated with selling, it gets rarer. So to answer your > question, I really doubt it. > >> >> in a model where 'free' P2P trading is changing the artists cycle >> and eating the theoretical sale of music > > > How is selling a used item merit a comparison with P2P trading? Looks > like an apples to oranges analogy imo. > In terms of legalities, there is no comparison. If I felt I was > stealing money from the artists (I would argue the contrary), I > wouldn't do it. > You'd be surprised how many of the artists buy from me, I from them > and even sometimes send me things with the intent of having me make > copies to tuck in as freebies so they can get their stuff heard. > Not trying to be defensive, just replying. And forgive me if I'm > covering ground already tread; this is the first post I see in my > inbox having just gotten home from work. > > > jeff > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

-- String Theory stringtheory@thornytigers.com http://thornytigers.com/stringtheory/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

// Seriously... If I make $3 off Jeff buying my record I'm happy. If Jeff then sells it on E-Bay to somebody else, and the bidder likes the record enough to buy a copy of my *next* record, that's another $3 for me. Hopefully Jeff buys a copy of that one too. // could you spill the beans on how one could make 3$ off a record? as a matter of fact, would you have any knowledge as to how to make even a dollar out of a record? are you directly selling your stuff to people, pressed with your own start-fund? //(ebay)// It's better than just having the record disappear, // you must have a very positive angle on things. i always thought if people list it up on ebay it means that they are extremely disappointed with the record, and do not want it to clutter their home. last i checked, people kept the buds and sold the duds. --- esa juhani ruoho http://www.lackluster.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

esa ruoho wrote:

quoted 12 lines //

> > // > Seriously... > If I make $3 off Jeff buying my record I'm happy. If Jeff then sells > it on E-Bay to somebody else, and the bidder likes the record enough > to buy a copy of my *next* record, that's another $3 for me. > Hopefully Jeff buys a copy of that one too. // > > could you spill the beans on how one could make 3$ off a record? > as a matter of fact, would you have any knowledge as to how > to make even a dollar out of a record? are you directly > selling your stuff to people, pressed with your own start-fund?

yeah, i was being way overly optimistic. i've never made $3 off a single sale actually ... that was just a hypothetical margin, because i don't know how much we make off our records (i'm a nerdy musician, not an accountant) ... we've actually only ever been paid at all for one record because only one record sold enough to make a profit. or actually only one record label had enough clout with distributors for them to actually pay the label for it. i won't name names, but i think anybody who has actually tried to distribute an electronic album in the USA knows who the rip-off artists are (or were).

quoted 8 lines //(ebay)//

> //(ebay)// > It's better than just having the record disappear, // > > you must have a very positive angle on things. i always > thought if people list it up on ebay it means that they > are extremely disappointed with the record, and do not > want it to clutter their home. last i checked, people > kept the buds and sold the duds.

yeah, that may often be the case ... but my point is that if somebody doesn't like it, i'd rather have them sell the record to somebody else who does enjoy it than have it gather dust in their stacks. josh -- String Theory stringtheory@thornytigers.com http://thornytigers.com/stringtheory/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

from stringlab@comcast.net // Seriously... If I make $3 off Jeff buying my record I'm happy. If Jeff then sells it on E-Bay to somebody else, and the bidder likes the record enough to buy a copy of my *next* record, that's another $3 for me. Hopefully Jeff buys a copy of that one too. // could you spill the beans on how one could make 3$ off a record? as a matter of fact, would you have any knowledge as to how to make even a dollar out of a record? are you directly selling your stuff to people, pressed with your own start-fund? //(ebay)// It's better than just having the record disappear, // you must have a very positive angle on things. i always thought if people list it up on ebay it means that they are extremely disappointed with the record, and do not want it to clutter their home. last i checked, people kept the buds and sold the duds. --- esa juhani ruoho http://www.lackluster.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

esa ruoho wrote:

quoted 8 lines you must have a very positive angle on things. i always

> > > you must have a very positive angle on things. i always > thought if people list it up on ebay it means that they > are extremely disappointed with the record, and do not > want it to clutter their home. last i checked, people > kept the buds and sold the duds. >

That's certainly not the case with me - nor with many other sellers I know. jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Nov 12, 2004, at 3:58 PM, theREALmxyzptlk wrote:

quoted 15 lines esa ruoho wrote:

> esa ruoho wrote: > >> >> >> you must have a very positive angle on things. i always >> thought if people list it up on ebay it means that they >> are extremely disappointed with the record, and do not >> want it to clutter their home. last i checked, people >> kept the buds and sold the duds. >> > That's certainly not the case with me - nor with many other sellers I > know. > > jeff >

Agreeing (with jeff); it's a great way to 'share' great music! np: Lackluster--Showcase --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

yeah, but everyones tastes are different, to a degree. Someone might be all happy to pick up that Quinoline Yellow you couldn't wait to get rid of, or you might be all excited about Plaid and someone else not so excited about them. So everyone wins. And fuck, someone bought it in the first place, so the artist got some money. What I wonder about is there are ebay fees, plus the shipping cost, how can you actually make much, if any money this way? I mean outside of shuffling around those oh so precious "mask" records... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Chispas De Muerte wrote:

quoted 13 lines yeah, but everyones tastes are different, to a degree.

>yeah, but everyones tastes are different, to a degree. >Someone might be all happy to pick up that Quinoline >Yellow you couldn't wait to get rid of, or you might >be all excited about Plaid and someone else not so >excited about them. So everyone wins. And fuck, >someone bought it in the first place, so the artist >got some money. What I wonder about is there are ebay >fees, plus the shipping cost, how can you actually >make much, if any money this way? I mean outside of >shuffling around those oh so precious "mask" records... > > >

Yes, there are eBay fees. They charge you to list an item (rates are based on the starting bid) and then they charge you a percentage of the final price on top of it. Paypal also charges you a percentage of each payment, which varies according to whether the payment was from a paypal balance, a credit card or a bank transfer; I believe they also charge more for international transactions. Both eBay and Paypal take a bigger chunk proportional to the amount for which the item sold. The packing supplies (envelopes/mailers, tape, bubble wrap, flats/boxes for LPs) have to be bought; a digital scale and tons of stamps come in handy. Anything over a pound or sent international (or w/ insurance, registered, etc.) has to be done across the post office counter, so there's lots of time in post office lines to consider. There's also the issue of people who bid things up and never pay or take 6 weeks to do it (and there are many), tying up the portion of your original purchase price you'd hoped to get back.I'm not even going to elaborate on the amount of time it takes to post new items, package, do email exchange, etc. This is not a whine, but it's the truth. You'd have to be insane to do this on a regular basis if you're only in it to make money unless you have some inside track on low-priced releases (which I haven't discovered!) or else you have a ton of highly sought collectors' items. If you happen to need to get some of your money back from your music-spending, there aren't a ton of viable alternatives. What are you going to get if you take them back to a store? $3 in store credit? I'd rather sell them on eBay and I'd rather buy on eBay from people I "know" than to browse the used bins (all of which I do, from time to time). Besides, I can find the occasional collectible on eBay more often than I can in the used bins. I might pay more for it on eBay, but when I want something related to music, I never have been known to exhibit the most reasonable behavior anyway. If this sounds like I'm rich, I'm not - trust me. I live paycheque to paycheque and in an apartment. If I could afford not to sell records, I wouldn't. You may love eBay, you may hate it. But for most sellers, it's not the cash cow which seems to populate the visions of those idly observing it. It's a lot of work - especially if you already have a job, an ongoing education and any kind of life.Consider this an explanation and not an apologia. Rant off. jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org