IDM Mailing Archive

First of all congratulations to Warp for giving this venture a try. I believe that Warp is taking a first step into the right direction in distributing music over the internet. iTunes has been on the block for a while now but I for one will not buy into ANY sort of DRM scheme period! Why on earth anybody would pay for music that is worse than CD quality and severely restricts the end-users usage is beyond me. Kudos to Warp for keeping the content DRM free. Now to the bad news. Warp is more than misleading with their statements in the FAQ. Bleep.com is not the only store offering high quality MP3 files over the net. In fact allofmp3.com has probably the best quality music files for purchase at the moment. On the fly encoding, MP3 up to 384kb/sec, lame standard, extreme and insane, AAC, MPC, WMA, OGG they got it all. And the price is certainly unbelievable too. A mere $5 for 500mb. I could download all the Autechre CDs they have for five bucks. Nonetheless I appreciate Warps efforts and hope this venture will work out for them. -MarcW --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Just out of curiosity, is allofmp3 really legit? I find it very hard to believe that someone like Sony (or even Warp for that matter) would allow these people to make Sony material available for download, especially sans-DRM. Especially when they're going to be opening up their own download store sometime in the near future. And my guess, given Sony's history with ATRAC and MD restrictions, is that material you download from them will have some serious copy limitation and other bullshit. Maybe Russian law gets allofmp3 around this somehow? Later, Alan Quoting rephlex@pubnix.org:

quoted 29 lines First of all congratulations to Warp for giving this venture a try. I

> First of all congratulations to Warp for giving this venture a try. I > believe that Warp is taking a first step into the right direction in > distributing music over the internet. iTunes has been on the block for a > while now but I for one will not buy into ANY sort of DRM scheme period! > Why on earth anybody would pay for music that is worse than CD quality > and > severely restricts the end-users usage is beyond me. Kudos to Warp for > keeping the content DRM free. Now to the bad news. Warp is more than > misleading with their statements in the FAQ. Bleep.com is not the only > store offering high quality MP3 files over the net. In fact allofmp3.com > has probably the best quality music files for purchase at the moment. On > the fly encoding, MP3 up to 384kb/sec, lame standard, extreme and > insane, > AAC, MPC, WMA, OGG they got it all. And the price is certainly > unbelievable too. A mere $5 for 500mb. I could download all the Autechre > CDs they have for five bucks. > > Nonetheless I appreciate Warps efforts and hope this venture will work > out > for them. > > -MarcW > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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The Russian government has been getting a lot of crap lately for not enforcing intellectual property rights at all. Hence......... V, ~Rick Strom http://www.rick-strom.com http://www.glowdot.com -----Original Message----- From: Alan R. Lucas [mailto:arlucas@telerama.com] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 8:06 PM To: rephlex@pubnix.org Cc: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] Bleep... my 2 cents Just out of curiosity, is allofmp3 really legit? I find it very hard to believe that someone like Sony (or even Warp for that matter) would allow these people to make Sony material available for download, especially sans-DRM. Especially when they're going to be opening up their own download store sometime in the near future. And my guess, given Sony's history with ATRAC and MD restrictions, is that material you download from them will have some serious copy limitation and other bullshit. Maybe Russian law gets allofmp3 around this somehow? Later, Alan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I'm certainly not a lawyer and know nothing about russian copyright law so all I can go by is the info that is provided on their site which states the following: All the materials in the MediaServices projects are available for distribution through Internet according to license # LS-3M-03-79 of the Russian Multimedia and Internet Society. Under the license terms, MediaServices pays license fees for all the materials subject to the Law of the Russian Federation "On Copyright and Related Rights". All the materials are available solely for personal use and must not be used for further distribution, resale or broadcasting. There are a number of discussions on various message boards discussing the legality of this service in the US. As of right now I don't think there is a definite answer. Anyway, all I wanted to point out with my post was that Warps statement of being the only website offering high quality MP3s is plain wrong. While the legality of allofmp3 in the US may be questionable they certainly have done a great job offering the content in a multitude of formats. -MarcW On Sat, 17 Jan 2004, Alan R. Lucas wrote:

quoted 50 lines Just out of curiosity, is allofmp3 really legit? I find it very hard to

> Just out of curiosity, is allofmp3 really legit? I find it very hard to > believe that someone like Sony (or even Warp for that matter) would allow > these people to make Sony material available for download, especially > sans-DRM. Especially when they're going to be opening up their own download > store sometime in the near future. And my guess, given Sony's history with > ATRAC and MD restrictions, is that material you download from them will have > some serious copy limitation and other bullshit. Maybe Russian law gets > allofmp3 around this somehow? > > Later, > Alan > > Quoting rephlex@pubnix.org: > > > First of all congratulations to Warp for giving this venture a try. I > > believe that Warp is taking a first step into the right direction in > > distributing music over the internet. iTunes has been on the block for a > > while now but I for one will not buy into ANY sort of DRM scheme period! > > Why on earth anybody would pay for music that is worse than CD quality > > and > > severely restricts the end-users usage is beyond me. Kudos to Warp for > > keeping the content DRM free. Now to the bad news. Warp is more than > > misleading with their statements in the FAQ. Bleep.com is not the only > > store offering high quality MP3 files over the net. In fact allofmp3.com > > has probably the best quality music files for purchase at the moment. On > > the fly encoding, MP3 up to 384kb/sec, lame standard, extreme and > > insane, > > AAC, MPC, WMA, OGG they got it all. And the price is certainly > > unbelievable too. A mere $5 for 500mb. I could download all the Autechre > > CDs they have for five bucks. > > > > Nonetheless I appreciate Warps efforts and hope this venture will work > > out > > for them. > > > > -MarcW > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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If they're not a legit service (i.e. if they're ripping off other labels/artists etc... [i know, i know, that's an IF]), then I don't really think that you can really compare them to Warp. I sent an email to Warp to see what they have to say. If they answer, and say it's okay for me to quote them, I'll let you know. There are lots of websites that offer high quality mp3s. But you're stealing if you download from most of them. ;) Later, Alan Quoting rephlex@pubnix.org:

quoted 15 lines There are a number of discussions on various message boards discussing

> There are a number of discussions on various message boards discussing > the > legality of this service in the US. As of right now I don't think there > is > a definite answer. Anyway, all I wanted to point out with my post was > that > Warps statement of being the only website offering high quality MP3s is > plain wrong. While the legality of allofmp3 in the US may be > questionable > they certainly have done a great job offering the content in a multitude > of formats. > > -MarcW > >

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At 12:44 AM 1/18/2004, you wrote:

quoted 7 lines There are a number of discussions on various message boards discussing the

>There are a number of discussions on various message boards discussing the >legality of this service in the US. As of right now I don't think there is >a definite answer. Anyway, all I wanted to point out with my post was that >Warps statement of being the only website offering high quality MP3s is >plain wrong. While the legality of allofmp3 in the US may be questionable >they certainly have done a great job offering the content in a multitude >of formats.

I think the legality is exactly the reason Warp makes the claim that they do -- the questionable legality makes it so you really can't publicize such a site, and the fact that it comes across like any other "warez" site (700mb of apps delivered to your door for $10!) rather than a music site is pretty sketchy. I mean, you can donate to the BitTorrent people, then donate to the big catalogs of sites, but just because you can then download FLAC albums doesn't exactly make it a "music store" (or legal ;D) Still, the thing that does it for me is that Warp is really up-front about how much the artist gets. If I knew artists got absolutely nothing, I wouldn't really give a damn about buying music. Warp says "artist gets half of what you buy," which is really a great thing to know, and piques my interest for their service. Much more than other sites that hide it (or, like allofmp3, don't give anything to artists). derek -- eggytoast.com -- eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 05:31 PM 1/18/2004, you wrote:

quoted 12 lines I would really like to know how you can make such a statement. Do you have

>I would really like to know how you can make such a statement. Do you have >anything to back that claim up ? How do you know that site is not paying >some RIAA like organisation in Russia that makes selling the content legal >in Russia ? In Germnay for example it is perfectly legal for somebody to >buy a CD, make a copy and give it to somebody else for free. The artists >still gets paid. How ? Every recordable medium in Germany is taxed. This >tax is collected by the GEMA (a RIAA like organisation) and gets back to >the record industry and the artists. I couldn't agree more with you that >Warp is doing the right thing by giving half of their proceeds to the >artists. This alone makes me want to use their service. The two reasons >why I'll never buy anything from iTunes is that they use DRM and that 99% >of the money paid goes to the record companies not the artist.

According to their "about us" page (here: http://stat.allofmp3.com/help.shtml?terms=on&help=on), they state that they use some obscure russian license for distributing work. A search for that license and its details leads nowhere, except here: --- 'All the materials in the MediaServices projects are available for distribution through Internet according to license # LS-3 -02-36 of the Russian Multimedia and Internet Society. Under the license terms, MediaServices pays license fees for all the materials subject to the Law of the Russian Federation "On Copyright and Related Rights". All the materials are available solely for personal use and must not be used for further distribution, resale or broadcasting.' All I could come up with when I googled "Russian Multimedia and Internet Society" (quotes ensuring it search for that term exactly) were pages asking if allofmp3.com was legit, leading me to agree with mroop, zippy and ac-x. The site isn't legal and by purchasing music from this site you are giving your money to Russian criminals exploiting artists rather than American criminals exploiting artists. --- From this site:http://www.boycottriaa.com/article/8725 Especially telling is the first line of the first page above states: You agree with the fact that you are not able to use and even to download audio and video materials from Allofmp3.com catalogue if it is in the conflict with legislation of your country. Allofmp3.com Administration is unable to control all Allofmp3.com users, therefore the users are responsible for usage of the materials represented on the Site. Which basically means that if you are a russian citizen, you're in the clear, but you need to research this apparently non-existent law from this group known as the "russian multimedia and internet society," whom exist solely through allofmp3.com and a few sister sites. Do they get paid? No doubt. Does that money ever get outside of those people's mitts? Doubtful, and I believe the burden of proof is on those who claim it *is* something, not those who throw it into doubt. -- eggytoast.com -- eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines artists. This alone makes me want to use their service. The two reasons

>artists. This alone makes me want to use their service. The two reasons >why I'll never buy anything from iTunes is that they use DRM and that 99% >of the money paid goes to the record companies not the artist.

I by no means want to appear to endorse iTunes, but if you refuse to buy from iTunes because most of the money goes to the company, you might want to consider never buying a CD again. The terms are quite similar. I had a deal with a rather large American label with massive worldwide distribution wherein every $20 CD sold earned me a whopping $1.10... that's around 5% to the artist. Yeah, I didn't think that sounded right at all, until I found out I actually had a pretty sweet deal right there, compared to others. Expect less. And compilations? The absolute BEST royalty I've received for a comp. was $0.10, and that was from Universal. I got an offer from a label recently who are now focusing on iTunes as a large part of their distribution scheme. The offer was a lot better than any album offer I've had, ever. But ultimately, I don't see anyone knocking iTunes over in a mad rush to buy anyone's mp3s, let alone the music of little old Rick Strom.... V, ~Rick Strom http://www.rick-strom.com http://www.glowdot.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Somebody said:

quoted 2 lines The two reasons why I'll never buy anything from iTunes is

> The two reasons why I'll never buy anything from iTunes is > >that they use DRM

Excuse my ignorance on this one, but would you please explain what DRM is? Yet *another* compression format??? I * --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 07:55 AM 1/19/2004, you wrote:

quoted 7 lines Somebody said:

>Somebody said: > > > The two reasons why I'll never buy anything from iTunes is > > >that they use DRM > >Excuse my ignorance on this one, but would you please explain what >DRM is? Yet *another* compression format???

It's "digital rights management." It's any form of file encoding (compressed or not) that has some inherent limitations on what a user can do with the file. Generally DRM for music files makes it so you can't decode the file into something else, or open them up in a sound editor, or whatever. Of course, they're all easily bypassed by simply burning the audio to CD (something that's usually excluded from most DRM, as users expect to be able to make backups). Stuff like those CDs that can't be played in a computer are the same thing. It's all pretty stupid, if you ask me. Make music consumers more aware, make the industry less prick-full, and you'll convert more people to not steal your music than archaic limitations and software. derek -- eggytoast.com -- eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 2 lines Excuse my ignorance on this one, but would you please explain what

> Excuse my ignorance on this one, but would you please explain what > DRM is? Yet *another* compression format???

I kinda felt compelled to reply "crap", but here's the official explanation by microsoft. Which still means "crap" anyway. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/wm7/drm/faq.aspx#General1 Microsoft isn't the unique power behind DRM, don't get me wrong. But they're one of the major companies pushing it, and they're the ones more worthy of my middle finger appreciation. fred / enoughrecords --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

here's a general question for the list: if there were a copy-protection code for CDs or mp3s that left sound quality and your own personal convenience of use totally unaffected, would you support it? if not, why not? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

[EggyToast <eggy@eggtastic.com>]

quoted 4 lines How would it work that it could possibly leave everyone's convenience

> How would it work that it could possibly leave everyone's convenience > unaffected and still protect copyright? I'm not finished with a CD > until I've OGG'd it to my harddrive, and if I can do that the > copyright is pretty poo-poo!

Well, obviously, they would have to be DRMed OGGs. -- :: atomly :: [ atomly@atomly.com : www.atomly.com ... [ atomiq records : po box 805319 chicago il 60680 : 312.804.5389 ... [ e-mail atomly-news-subscribe@atomly.com for atomly info and updates ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 12:09 PM 1/19/2004, you wrote:

quoted 7 lines [EggyToast <eggy@eggtastic.com>]

>[EggyToast <eggy@eggtastic.com>] > > How would it work that it could possibly leave everyone's convenience > > unaffected and still protect copyright? I'm not finished with a CD > > until I've OGG'd it to my harddrive, and if I can do that the > > copyright is pretty poo-poo! > >Well, obviously, they would have to be DRMed OGGs.

I don't think there's anything in the OGG format that woudl allow for DRM. Is there? derek -- eggytoast.com -- eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

You can wrap DRM round any format you like, so you would have an ecrypted file that could only be used by certain software but inside the music is stored in ogg.

quoted 24 lines At 12:09 PM 1/19/2004, you wrote:

> At 12:09 PM 1/19/2004, you wrote: > >> [EggyToast <eggy@eggtastic.com>] >> > How would it work that it could possibly leave everyone's convenience >> > unaffected and still protect copyright? I'm not finished with a CD >> > until I've OGG'd it to my harddrive, and if I can do that the >> > copyright is pretty poo-poo! >> >> Well, obviously, they would have to be DRMed OGGs. > > > I don't think there's anything in the OGG format that woudl allow for > DRM. Is there? > > derek > > -- > eggytoast.com -- eggtastic.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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chthonic streams wrote:

quoted 5 lines here's a general question for the list:

> here's a general question for the list: > > if there were a copy-protection code for CDs or mp3s that left sound > quality and your own personal convenience of use totally unaffected, > would you support it? if not, why not?

I could accept DRM if the following things were true: --It was guaranteed that I would be able to listen to the music for the rest of my life, even if I upgraded my gear every five years, had a couple of hard drive crashes, and switched OSes from time to time. --I could still make copies of individual tracks to make mix CDs for people. --It would work completely transparently for me, and for legitimate shared usage (such as in libraries). --I could transfer my interest in the copy to anyone, anytime (including for example, selling it to a used record store in a form that they could easily resell). --It would expire after a reasonable period, so that future generations wouldn't have to maintain antiquated software and/or hack the encryption in order to listen to music of our time. --I could back it up and still use it if my original copy was lost or stolen. How a DRM system could do all this and still prevent piracy, short of mind-reading, I don't know. But those are my minimum requirements. -- THE DOUBTFUL PALACE Free exquisite music http://www.doubtfulpalace.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

that implies that you know what every artist's contract with their label is. Plenty of artists up on I-Tunes are getting the same share the label is. The Warp thing is interesting. A bit expensive, but it will be interesting to see how it pans out. Jeff

quoted 8 lines From: EggyToast <eggy@eggtastic.com>

> From: EggyToast <eggy@eggtastic.com> > Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:13:18 -0500 > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] Bleep... my 2 cents > > The two reasons >> why I'll never buy anything from iTunes is that they use DRM and that 99% >> of the money paid goes to the record companies not the artist.

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At 11:15 AM 1/19/2004, you wrote:

quoted 5 lines that implies that you know what every artist's contract with their label is.

>that implies that you know what every artist's contract with their label is. >Plenty of artists up on I-Tunes are getting the same share the label is. > >The Warp thing is interesting. A bit expensive, but it will be interesting >to see how it pans out.

I didn't say the quote below, although I did respond to that thread. DRM doesn't bother me with iTunes, and although I did say that artists get about 7-10 cents on the dollar for songs sold on average, I'm sure that there are a few artists who have better deals with their artists. Still, since Apple has nothing at all to do with the music outside of distributing, they end up with the lion's share of the money. Which is why I inherently like the Warp approach more. I'd rather the label and artist split the $1.35 minus expenses instead of both getting $.10 ;D derek

quoted 15 lines Jeff

>Jeff > > > From: EggyToast <eggy@eggtastic.com> > > Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:13:18 -0500 > > To: idm@hyperreal.org > > Subject: Re: [idm] Bleep... my 2 cents > > > > The two reasons > >> why I'll never buy anything from iTunes is that they use DRM and that 99% > >> of the money paid goes to the record companies not the artist. > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

-- eggytoast.com -- eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org