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Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?

26 messages · 16 participants · spans 8 days · search this subject
2003-12-04 05:28dave_dunstan [idm] best of 2003 ?
2003-12-04 06:31cutups Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
├─ 2003-12-04 06:32dave_dunstan Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
│ └─ 2003-12-04 08:49Scarcelight Recordings Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
│ └─ 2003-12-04 13:41chthonic streams Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
└─ 2003-12-11 22:12Pinkelton Wicham Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
2003-12-04 15:36robert stanton [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
2003-12-04 16:05Aaron D Meyers Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
2003-12-04 16:08Albers, Brian A. RE: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
2003-12-04 16:24Aaron D Meyers RE: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
2003-12-04 17:12chthonic Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
└─ 2003-12-04 18:28dave_dunstan Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
├─ 2003-12-04 18:34Sebastien Dalphond RE: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
│ └─ 2003-12-04 22:07Anne Whillance RE: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
│ └─ 2003-12-05 02:47Jocelyn Whiteford RE: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
└─ 2003-12-04 18:41vis-you Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
└─ 2003-12-04 19:02vis-you Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
└─ 2003-12-04 21:29andrew jones Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
2003-12-04 18:25seeklektek Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
2003-12-04 19:17folk devil [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
2003-12-11 22:15cutups Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
2003-12-11 22:40chthonic Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
└─ 2003-12-11 23:08Pinkelton Wicham Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
2003-12-11 22:49cutups Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
2003-12-11 22:58chthonic Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
└─ 2003-12-11 23:25wownflutter Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
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2003-12-04 05:28dave_dunstanIs it too early to start talking best of 03? -- ------------------------------------------
From:
dave_dunstan
To:
Date:
Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:28:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject:
[idm] best of 2003 ?
permalink · <Pine.LNX.4.44.0312032327480.7846-100000@westhost48.westhost.net>
Is it too early to start talking best of 03? -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-04 06:31cutups----- Original Message ----- From: "dave_dunstan" <dominodigital@dominodigital.com> To: <i
From:
cutups
To:
Date:
Thu, 4 Dec 2003 01:31:46 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
permalink · <07d101c3ba30$4b60d6a0$6400a8c0@wrecked>
----- Original Message ----- From: "dave_dunstan" <dominodigital@dominodigital.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 12:28 AM Subject: [idm] best of 2003 ?
quoted 2 lines Is it too early to start talking best of 03?> > Is it too early to start talking best of 03?
Give it about 3 more weeks. - geoff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-04 06:32dave_dunstanmy mistake. carry on! dave On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, cutups wrote: > > ----- Original Message --
From:
dave_dunstan
To:
cutups
Cc:
Date:
Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:32:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
Reply to:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
permalink · <Pine.LNX.4.44.0312040032240.5565-100000@westhost48.westhost.net>
my mistake. carry on! dave On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, cutups wrote:
quoted 19 lines ----- Original Message -----> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "dave_dunstan" <dominodigital@dominodigital.com> > To: <idm@hyperreal.org> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 12:28 AM > Subject: [idm] best of 2003 ? > > > > > > Is it too early to start talking best of 03? > > Give it about 3 more weeks. > > - geoff > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2003-12-04 08:49Scarcelight Recordingsnot idm but, then again what is album of the year! Hecker: Sun Pandamonium honorable menti
From:
Scarcelight Recordings
To:
Date:
Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:49:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
Reply to:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
permalink · <20031204084946.6591.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com>
not idm but, then again what is album of the year! Hecker: Sun Pandamonium honorable mention: Desormais: iambroken.... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-04 13:41chthonic streams>: >Desormais: iambroken.... i second this! incredible stuff. d. -- http://www.chthonicstr
From:
chthonic streams
To:
Date:
Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:41:09 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
Reply to:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
permalink · <p05210600bbf4e9d521e5@[64.63.223.234]>
quoted 2 lines :>: >Desormais: iambroken....
i second this! incredible stuff. d. -- http://www.chthonicstreams.com http://www.dreamintodust.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-11 22:12Pinkelton Wichamspeaking of which - anybody up for attempting to set up a rudementary voting booth (or hav
From:
Pinkelton Wicham
To:
Date:
Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:12:19 -0800
Subject:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
Reply to:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
permalink · <3FD8EBC3.2010907@pinkwerks.com>
speaking of which - anybody up for attempting to set up a rudementary voting booth (or have a pre-built one) - some php/cgi whatever thing. i know some of the folks around here run websights... though i enjoy sifting the content out of the list as much as everyone it'd be nice to have something a little more tech. -pink cutups wrote:
quoted 6 lines Is it too early to start talking best of 03?>>Is it too early to start talking best of 03? > > > Give it about 3 more weeks. > > - geoff
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2003-12-04 15:36robert stantonHello list, I think that the 'best of 2003' concept is not a productive thread topic, and
From:
robert stanton
To:
Date:
Thu, 04 Dec 2003 09:36:08 -0600
Subject:
[idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <BAY1-F47XRPmcarcR4Z00008727@hotmail.com>
Hello list, I think that the 'best of 2003' concept is not a productive thread topic, and as such would advise list-members to forgo writing one. As some of you may recall, I once ran a site devoted towards 'reviewing' electronic music and was very much a part of the whole 'rating albums' schema. Since that has ended, however, I have had time to reflect on the status of music in contemporary society and have found that even in the 'underground,' it is viewed as and expected to be an industry. This should not be surprising considering that 'popular' music is an industry that we are constantly exposed on a daily basis; what transpires, then, is a connection with music as pertaining to some 'industry,' whatever it may be. The purpose of most music 'reviewing' today is to provide, then, a consumptive schema for what is being reviewed; what ultimately comes to the fore is whether or not the album is worth purchasing. Partly as a result of this, critical interpretation is limited or ignored altogether, and the significance of any one piece of music is dissolved into exchange value instead of use value. 'Best of' lists must be viewed in this context as they are, typically, lists of recommendations to purchase based upon someone else's abstract notions of worth. The most one usually receives is an artist and album, along with a sentence or two of why the album is 'good,' which essentially translates into why it should be consumed. Thus, 'best of' lists are nothing more than advertising (as much as we would like to believe they are expressions of personal aesthetic) and contribute to a standardization of music. This occurs because the small descriptions become templates for further production (this word was chosen explicitly for its meaning) of music in the future. In popular music, a conservatism develops regardless of artistic endeavors in part because of the limited forms allowed by the culture industry; all else is regarded as 'alien' and thus 'not good.' Of course this effect is minimal in the lesser-known musics as they are less dominated by a hierarchy of public opinion and culture industry dissemination; still, we can see the early fragments of this developing here as well, as many yearn for the 'good old days.' This is why I feel 'best of' lists are not useful in the least, and a new way of expressing opinion must be created. I would like to present the idea of a collective listening and discussion of albums that members feel are excellent (not necessarily exclusively from this year). While I am not sure what the exact result of this would be, it most likely would disrupt the pattern of 'this is good so consume' mentality, bring participating listmembers closer, and potentially return thoughtful listening and discussion to the music. If enough are interested, I will be happy to set up the framework for such an endeavor (others would be welcomed to lead, of course). Regards, Robert _________________________________________________________________ Don?t worry if your Inbox will max out while you are enjoying the holidays. Get MSN Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-04 16:05Aaron D Meyers> 'Best of' lists must be viewed in this context as they are, > typically, lists > of reco
From:
Aaron D Meyers
To:
robert stanton
Cc:
Date:
Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:05:23 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <13701ab136f2bf.136f2bf13701ab@homemail.nyu.edu>
quoted 5 lines 'Best of' lists must be viewed in this context as they are,> 'Best of' lists must be viewed in this context as they are, > typically, lists > of recommendations to purchase based upon someone else's abstract > notions of > worth.
How about instead we view it in the context of we do this every year and a lot of people like it and find out about really good releases they might have overlooked in the last 12 months? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-04 16:08Albers, Brian A.Or it's just a fun way to let the other list members know what releases we've enjoyed this
From:
Albers, Brian A.
To:
robert stanton ,
Date:
Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:08:08 -0800
Subject:
RE: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <93A9F34BCE80564DAE950EE870B00D3A0FAE21@SDIMAIL01.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com>
Or it's just a fun way to let the other list members know what releases we've enjoyed this year. Damn, dude, it's not rocket science. Hello list, I think that the 'best of 2003' concept is not a productive thread topic, and as such would advise list-members to forgo writing one. As some of you may recall, I once ran a site devoted towards 'reviewing' electronic music and was very much a part of the whole 'rating albums' schema. Since that has ended, however, I have had time to reflect on the status of music in contemporary society and have found that even in the 'underground,' it is viewed as and expected to be an industry. This should not be surprising considering that 'popular' music is an industry that we are constantly exposed on a daily basis; what transpires, then, is a connection with music as pertaining to some 'industry,' whatever it may be. The purpose of most music 'reviewing' today is to provide, then, a consumptive schema for what is being reviewed; what ultimately comes to the fore is whether or not the album is worth purchasing. Partly as a result of this, critical interpretation is limited or ignored altogether, and the significance of any one piece of music is dissolved into exchange value instead of use value. 'Best of' lists must be viewed in this context as they are, typically, lists of recommendations to purchase based upon someone else's abstract notions of worth. The most one usually receives is an artist and album, along with a sentence or two of why the album is 'good,' which essentially translates into why it should be consumed. Thus, 'best of' lists are nothing more than advertising (as much as we would like to believe they are expressions of personal aesthetic) and contribute to a standardization of music. This occurs because the small descriptions become templates for further production (this word was chosen explicitly for its meaning) of music in the future. In popular music, a conservatism develops regardless of artistic endeavors in part because of the limited forms allowed by the culture industry; all else is regarded as 'alien' and thus 'not good.' Of course this effect is minimal in the lesser-known musics as they are less dominated by a hierarchy of public opinion and culture industry dissemination; still, we can see the early fragments of this developing here as well, as many yearn for the 'good old days.' This is why I feel 'best of' lists are not useful in the least, and a new way of expressing opinion must be created. I would like to present the idea of a collective listening and discussion of albums that members feel are excellent (not necessarily exclusively from this year). While I am not sure what the exact result of this would be, it most likely would disrupt the pattern of 'this is good so consume' mentality, bring participating listmembers closer, and potentially return thoughtful listening and discussion to the music. If enough are interested, I will be happy to set up the framework for such an endeavor (others would be welcomed to lead, of course). Regards, Robert _________________________________________________________________ Don’t worry if your Inbox will max out while you are enjoying the holidays. Get MSN Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-04 16:24Aaron D MeyersOk... I'll go. I REALLY fucking love the Kill Memory Crash EP on Ghostly. Definitely one o
From:
Aaron D Meyers
To:
Date:
Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:24:40 -0500
Subject:
RE: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <137fea6137aeac.137aeac137fea6@homemail.nyu.edu>
Ok... I'll go. I REALLY fucking love the Kill Memory Crash EP on Ghostly. Definitely one of the best releases of the year for me. Its like the perfect combination of dancey industrial and electro with nuanced IDM production flourishes. The vocals alternate between creepy monotone and vocoded robospeak. It sounds great when played LOUDLY. I've played it for some friends who are casual electronic music fans and their eyes always light-up the first couple seconds in. So yea... really great stuff... I look forward to seeing these guys live whenever that happens. -Aaron --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-04 17:12chthonicthe only way in which i agree with this is that pure "lists" without any exposition do not
From:
chthonic
To:
Date:
Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:12:31 -0800
Subject:
Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <200312040912.AA641402192@chthonicstreams.com>
the only way in which i agree with this is that pure "lists" without any exposition do nothing to help. some description, and even links to soundclips would be helpful. i don't think best-of lists need to be ranked or rated. simply "this stuff came out this year, this is what it sounds like, this is why i like it". ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "robert stanton" <industrialrobot@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 09:36:08 -0600
quoted 3 lines Hello list,>Hello list, > >I think that the 'best of 2003' concept is not a productive thread
topic,
quoted 3 lines and as such would advise list-members to forgo writing one.>and as such would advise list-members to forgo writing one. > >As some of you may recall, I once ran a site devoted towards
'reviewing'
quoted 1 line electronic music and was very much a part of the whole 'rating>electronic music and was very much a part of the whole 'rating
albums'
quoted 1 line schema. Since that has ended, however, I have had time to>schema. Since that has ended, however, I have had time to
reflect on the
quoted 1 line status of music in contemporary society and have found that even>status of music in contemporary society and have found that even
in the
quoted 1 line 'underground,' it is viewed as and expected to be an industry.>'underground,' it is viewed as and expected to be an industry.
This should
quoted 1 line not be surprising considering that 'popular' music is an industry>not be surprising considering that 'popular' music is an industry
that we
quoted 1 line are constantly exposed on a daily basis; what transpires, then, is>are constantly exposed on a daily basis; what transpires, then, is
a
quoted 1 line connection with music as pertaining to some 'industry,' whatever>connection with music as pertaining to some 'industry,' whatever
it may be.
quoted 2 lines The purpose of most music 'reviewing' today is to provide, then, a>The purpose of most music 'reviewing' today is to provide, then, a >consumptive schema for what is being reviewed; what ultimately
comes to the
quoted 1 line fore is whether or not the album is worth purchasing. Partly as a>fore is whether or not the album is worth purchasing. Partly as a
result of
quoted 2 lines this, critical interpretation is limited or ignored altogether, and the>this, critical interpretation is limited or ignored altogether, and the >significance of any one piece of music is dissolved into exchange
value
quoted 3 lines instead of use value.>instead of use value. > >'Best of' lists must be viewed in this context as they are, typically,
lists
quoted 1 line of recommendations to purchase based upon someone else's>of recommendations to purchase based upon someone else's
abstract notions of
quoted 1 line worth. The most one usually receives is an artist and album,>worth. The most one usually receives is an artist and album,
along with a
quoted 1 line sentence or two of why the album is 'good,' which essentially>sentence or two of why the album is 'good,' which essentially
translates
quoted 1 line into why it should be consumed. Thus, 'best of' lists are nothing>into why it should be consumed. Thus, 'best of' lists are nothing
more than
quoted 1 line advertising (as much as we would like to believe they are>advertising (as much as we would like to believe they are
expressions of
quoted 1 line personal aesthetic) and contribute to a standardization of music.>personal aesthetic) and contribute to a standardization of music.
This
quoted 1 line occurs because the small descriptions become templates for>occurs because the small descriptions become templates for
further
quoted 1 line production (this word was chosen explicitly for its meaning) of>production (this word was chosen explicitly for its meaning) of
music in the
quoted 1 line future. In popular music, a conservatism develops regardless of>future. In popular music, a conservatism develops regardless of
artistic
quoted 1 line endeavors in part because of the limited forms allowed by the>endeavors in part because of the limited forms allowed by the
culture
quoted 1 line industry; all else is regarded as 'alien' and thus 'not good.' Of>industry; all else is regarded as 'alien' and thus 'not good.' Of
course
quoted 1 line this effect is minimal in the lesser-known musics as they are>this effect is minimal in the lesser-known musics as they are
less dominated
quoted 1 line by a hierarchy of public opinion and culture industry>by a hierarchy of public opinion and culture industry
dissemination; still,
quoted 1 line we can see the early fragments of this developing here as well,>we can see the early fragments of this developing here as well,
as many
quoted 1 line yearn for the 'good old days.' This is why I feel 'best of' lists are>yearn for the 'good old days.' This is why I feel 'best of' lists are
not
quoted 1 line useful in the least, and a new way of expressing opinion must be>useful in the least, and a new way of expressing opinion must be
created.
quoted 2 lines I would like to present the idea of a collective listening and> >I would like to present the idea of a collective listening and
discussion of
quoted 1 line albums that members feel are excellent (not necessarily>albums that members feel are excellent (not necessarily
exclusively from
quoted 1 line this year). While I am not sure what the exact result of this would>this year). While I am not sure what the exact result of this would
be, it
quoted 2 lines most likely would disrupt the pattern of 'this is good so consume'>most likely would disrupt the pattern of 'this is good so consume' >mentality, bring participating listmembers closer, and potentially
return
quoted 1 line thoughtful listening and discussion to the music. If enough are>thoughtful listening and discussion to the music. If enough are
interested,
quoted 1 line I will be happy to set up the framework for such an endeavor>I will be happy to set up the framework for such an endeavor
(others would
quoted 6 lines be welcomed to lead, of course).>be welcomed to lead, of course). > >Regards, >Robert > >__________________________________________________
_______________
quoted 1 line Don’t worry if your Inbox will max out while you are enjoying the>Don’t worry if your Inbox will max out while you are enjoying the
holidays.
quoted 8 lines Get MSN Extra Storage! >Get MSN Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2003-12-04 18:28dave_dunstanI'll admit right now, I am shamelessly looking for stuff to check out, cramming everyone's
From:
dave_dunstan
To:
chthonic
Cc:
Date:
Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:28:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject:
Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
Reply to:
Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <Pine.LNX.4.44.0312041225070.31090-100000@westhost48.westhost.net>
I'll admit right now, I am shamelessly looking for stuff to check out, cramming everyone's regurgitated opinions into my musical taste brutally and flagrantly! Oh I have no soul! ha, not. I have been working like an idiot night and day for some stupid dot com and my IDM landscape right now is basically the latest Warp stuff, that Murcof record (which I love) and some old Ulrich Schnauss, and I have had no chance to check out other stuff ... Actually I don't have a favorite IDM, that's why I'm asking you guys. I think my favorite album of 2003 (overall) was the new Outkast! Thanks, dave On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, chthonic wrote:
quoted 117 lines the only way in which i agree with this is that pure "lists" without> > the only way in which i agree with this is that pure "lists" without > any exposition do nothing to help. some description, and even > links to soundclips would be helpful. > > i don't think best-of lists need to be ranked or rated. simply "this > stuff came out this year, this is what it sounds like, this is why i like > it". > > > ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > From: "robert stanton" <industrialrobot@hotmail.com> > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 09:36:08 -0600 > > >Hello list, > > > >I think that the 'best of 2003' concept is not a productive thread > topic, > >and as such would advise list-members to forgo writing one. > > > >As some of you may recall, I once ran a site devoted towards > 'reviewing' > >electronic music and was very much a part of the whole 'rating > albums' > >schema. Since that has ended, however, I have had time to > reflect on the > >status of music in contemporary society and have found that even > in the > >'underground,' it is viewed as and expected to be an industry. > This should > >not be surprising considering that 'popular' music is an industry > that we > >are constantly exposed on a daily basis; what transpires, then, is > a > >connection with music as pertaining to some 'industry,' whatever > it may be. > >The purpose of most music 'reviewing' today is to provide, then, a > >consumptive schema for what is being reviewed; what ultimately > comes to the > >fore is whether or not the album is worth purchasing. Partly as a > result of > >this, critical interpretation is limited or ignored altogether, and the > >significance of any one piece of music is dissolved into exchange > value > >instead of use value. > > > >'Best of' lists must be viewed in this context as they are, typically, > lists > >of recommendations to purchase based upon someone else's > abstract notions of > >worth. The most one usually receives is an artist and album, > along with a > >sentence or two of why the album is 'good,' which essentially > translates > >into why it should be consumed. Thus, 'best of' lists are nothing > more than > >advertising (as much as we would like to believe they are > expressions of > >personal aesthetic) and contribute to a standardization of music. > This > >occurs because the small descriptions become templates for > further > >production (this word was chosen explicitly for its meaning) of > music in the > >future. In popular music, a conservatism develops regardless of > artistic > >endeavors in part because of the limited forms allowed by the > culture > >industry; all else is regarded as 'alien' and thus 'not good.' Of > course > >this effect is minimal in the lesser-known musics as they are > less dominated > >by a hierarchy of public opinion and culture industry > dissemination; still, > >we can see the early fragments of this developing here as well, > as many > >yearn for the 'good old days.' This is why I feel 'best of' lists are > not > >useful in the least, and a new way of expressing opinion must be > created. > > > >I would like to present the idea of a collective listening and > discussion of > >albums that members feel are excellent (not necessarily > exclusively from > >this year). While I am not sure what the exact result of this would > be, it > >most likely would disrupt the pattern of 'this is good so consume' > >mentality, bring participating listmembers closer, and potentially > return > >thoughtful listening and discussion to the music. If enough are > interested, > >I will be happy to set up the framework for such an endeavor > (others would > >be welcomed to lead, of course). > > > >Regards, > >Robert > > > >__________________________________________________ > _______________ > >Don’t worry if your Inbox will max out while you are enjoying the > holidays. > >Get MSN Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2003-12-04 18:34Sebastien Dalphond> Actually I don't have a favorite IDM, that's why I'm asking you guys. I > think my favor
From:
Sebastien Dalphond
To:
Date:
Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:34:23 -0500
Subject:
RE: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
Reply to:
Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <HKEGKANOIIDEPLIJFAHDOELNDAAA.dalphond@hybride.com>
quoted 2 lines Actually I don't have a favorite IDM, that's why I'm asking you guys. I> Actually I don't have a favorite IDM, that's why I'm asking you guys. I > think my favorite album of 2003 (overall) was the new Outkast!
Same here! Especially the Andre3000 CD. I only have one suggestion for the best of 2003, and it is David Kristian's Music from the Mermaid Room CD. It sounds old and new, true IDM. Can't wait for the Mermaid series (only in vinyl? hope not). poussinfrais --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-04 22:07Anne WhillanceI agree with you about David Kristian "Music from the Mermaid Room". If the rest of the se
From:
Anne Whillance
To:
Sebastien Dalphond ,
Date:
Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:07:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
RE: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
Reply to:
RE: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <20031204220725.62216.qmail@web60608.mail.yahoo.com>
I agree with you about David Kristian "Music from the Mermaid Room". If the rest of the series is anything like that CD, 2004 is going to be a good year. Kristian's music is warm and melodic, and is probably the most emotive I have heard this side of Ulrich Schnauss and Casino Versus Japan. Speaking of warmth and melody, I would also add Ulrich Schnauss' "A Strangely Isolated Place" and Plaid's "Spokes" as other contenders for the top releases of 2003. LFO's "Sheath" was a nice surprise too, and one of the best things to come out on Warp in a long time. Anne :) Sebastien Dalphond <dalphond@hybride.com> wrote:
quoted 2 lines Actually I don't have a favorite IDM, that's why I'm asking you guys. I> Actually I don't have a favorite IDM, that's why I'm asking you guys. I > think my favorite album of 2003 (overall) was the new Outkast!
Same here! Especially the Andre3000 CD. I only have one suggestion for the best of 2003, and it is David Kristian's Music from the Mermaid Room CD. It sounds old and new, true IDM. Can't wait for the Mermaid series (only in vinyl? hope not). poussinfrais --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
2003-12-05 02:47Jocelyn WhitefordI totally agree with you on those picks. We have some pretty similiar music tastes. I'd al
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Jocelyn Whiteford
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Anne Whillance , Sebastien Dalphond ,
Date:
Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:47:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
RE: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
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RE: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <20031205024725.10905.qmail@web21506.mail.yahoo.com>
I totally agree with you on those picks. We have some pretty similiar music tastes. I'd also like to throw in Snow Robots Volume 3 and Gridlock - Under, which is the 10th release in the Piehead Records 2003 Series. The new LFO album was a nice a treat, since I haven't been very happy with anything from Warp lately. The new Lowfish album, 1000 Corrections Per Second was great too. Anne Whillance <a_whillance@yahoo.com> wrote: I agree with you about David Kristian "Music from the Mermaid Room". If the rest of the series is anything like that CD, 2004 is going to be a good year. Kristian's music is warm and melodic, and is probably the most emotive I have heard this side of Ulrich Schnauss and Casino Versus Japan. Speaking of warmth and melody, I would also add Ulrich Schnauss' "A Strangely Isolated Place" and Plaid's "Spokes" as other contenders for the top releases of 2003. LFO's "Sheath" was a nice surprise too, and one of the best things to come out on Warp in a long time. Anne :) Sebastien Dalphond wrote:
quoted 2 lines Actually I don't have a favorite IDM, that's why I'm asking you guys. I> Actually I don't have a favorite IDM, that's why I'm asking you guys. I > think my favorite album of 2003 (overall) was the new Outkast!
Same here! Especially the Andre3000 CD. I only have one suggestion for the best of 2003, and it is David Kristian's Music from the Mermaid Room CD. It sounds old and new, true IDM. Can't wait for the Mermaid series (only in vinyl? hope not). poussinfrais --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
2003-12-04 18:41vis-youI haven't been able to purchase a lot of music this year... but my favorite purchases of t
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vis-you
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Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:41:03 -0600
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Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
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Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <69C24E43-2689-11D8-A93C-003065C7A25A@dreamingpig.com>
I haven't been able to purchase a lot of music this year... but my favorite purchases of the year have been Plaid's DialP and most anything I picked up from Ghostly... (love the Idol Tryouts comp..). I also liked Yoseph by Luke Vibert. but I'm a sucker for anything he does, really... been a fan since the early plug days. 2¢ -matT p.s. - ... a friend of mine just got in line behind Ben Folds and William Shatner at a local coffee house here called Fido's. I love this town. nashvegas, tn --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-04 19:02vis-youoh... and M83 is a nice find.... and Plaid's other release, Spokes... can't leave that one
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vis-you
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Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:02:01 -0600
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Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
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Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <57BDB68C-268C-11D8-A93C-003065C7A25A@dreamingpig.com>
oh... and M83 is a nice find.... and Plaid's other release, Spokes... can't leave that one out. -matT On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 12:41 PM, vis-you wrote:
quoted 24 lines I haven't been able to purchase a lot of music this year... but my> I haven't been able to purchase a lot of music this year... but my > favorite purchases of the year have been Plaid's DialP and most > anything I picked up from Ghostly... (love the Idol Tryouts comp..). I > also liked Yoseph by Luke Vibert. > > but I'm a sucker for anything he does, really... been a fan since the > early plug days. > > 2¢ > > -matT > p.s. - ... a friend of mine just got in line behind Ben Folds and > William Shatner at a local coffee house here called Fido's. I love > this town. > > > nashvegas, tn > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2003-12-04 21:29andrew jonesJohn Chantler Monoke the second otto track on suitable for all purpose jelinek's last one
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andrew jones
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Date:
Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:29:23 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
Reply to:
Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <EDB46ED2-26A0-11D8-9064-0003934AA8EE@mac.com>
John Chantler Monoke the second otto track on suitable for all purpose jelinek's last one on scape who knows. whatever i was sent. dino's xanaconversex impressed me. - a On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 02:02 PM, vis-you wrote:
quoted 40 lines oh... and M83 is a nice find.... and Plaid's other release, Spokes...> oh... and M83 is a nice find.... and Plaid's other release, Spokes... > can't leave that one out. > > -matT > > > On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 12:41 PM, vis-you wrote: > >> I haven't been able to purchase a lot of music this year... but my >> favorite purchases of the year have been Plaid's DialP and most >> anything I picked up from Ghostly... (love the Idol Tryouts comp..). >> I also liked Yoseph by Luke Vibert. >> >> but I'm a sucker for anything he does, really... been a fan since the >> early plug days. >> >> 2¢ >> >> -matT >> p.s. - ... a friend of mine just got in line behind Ben Folds and >> William Shatner at a local coffee house here called Fido's. I love >> this town. >> >> >> nashvegas, tn >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >> >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >
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2003-12-04 18:25seeklektek----- Original Message ----- From: "chthonic" <chthonic@chthonicstreams.com> i don't think
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seeklektek
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Date:
Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:25:43 -0800
Subject:
Re: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <0a3701c3ba94$07478680$dc64e40c@obelisk>
----- Original Message ----- From: "chthonic" <chthonic@chthonicstreams.com> i don't think best-of lists need to be ranked or rated. simply "this stuff came out this year, this is what it sounds like, this is why i like it". _________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ Top 23 of the past 2003 minutes (plus 11 others): Deadbeat vs. Stephen Beaupre - Crackhaus (Onitor) Crunch + Kima - Bit Hop Video Project (Colony) John Tejada - The Toiling of Idle Hands (Immigrant) Andy Vaz - Live in Tokyo (Soundvariation) Superlongevity 3 (Perlon) Plaid - DialP (Warp) Softland - One Is A Very Small Crowd (Spezial Material) Hakan Lidbo - From Stockholm With Love (AKA) Process - Spectra (Traum) Jeff Bennett - Puzzling Thoughts (Episode) B Recordings - Shine (Payola) Meam - The 'L' cd/dvd (Skam) Kiyo - Chaotech Odd Echo (Schematic) 'Talk To Her' - Pedro Almodóvar Dominique LaStrapes Keira Goerl Natasha Watley Lindsay Gardner Cat Osterman Ellen Allien - Berlinette (BPitch Control) The Modernist - Kangmei (Wonder) Carsten Jost - You Don't Need A Weatherman (Dial) Markus Guentner - Audio Island (Ware) R. Villalobos - Taka Taka (Cocoon Recordings) Paul Kalkbrenner - Zeit (BPitch Control) Josh Beckett Godzilla Matsui v/a - Von Uns (Oni.tor label compilation) Swimming Pool - Anything That Doesn't Move (Combination) A Rocket In Dub - If Music Could Talk (Italic) Thomas Brinkmann - It Never Was You video (max.ernst) Stewart Walker - Live Extracts (Persona) Akufen - Breezeblock mix 4.29.03 'Spirited Away' - Hayao Miyazaki http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/*seek*/ seek --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-04 19:17folk devilI understand you, but let's face it, idm has already been marketed to death, I mean it's g
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folk devil
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Date:
Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:17:57 -0800
Subject:
[idm] RE: best of 2003 ?
permalink · <BAY10-F39Pq2qJ5hSTG0000a2a1@hotmail.com>
I understand you, but let's face it, idm has already been marketed to death, I mean it's got a name hasn't it? ;] And PR agents agents hang around lists like these like flies around the proverbial. But there are some real heads in here and it's good to share thoughts, whilst we're still allowed to. ;] 'one' of my favourite albums of 2003 would be killing joke...nice to hear something that's very emotive and saying something. I am getting tired of vocal silence in music, including vocals that are just nonsensical, or music that's just downright non-communicative. above all to me, music needs to be emotive, not just the woo and awe of expensive software. that stuff's for network analysts! :]
quoted 65 lines From: "robert stanton" <industrialrobot@hotmail.com>>From: "robert stanton" <industrialrobot@hotmail.com> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: [idm] RE: best of 2003 ? >Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 09:36:08 -0600 > >Hello list, > >I think that the 'best of 2003' concept is not a productive thread topic, >and as such would advise list-members to forgo writing one. > >As some of you may recall, I once ran a site devoted towards 'reviewing' >electronic music and was very much a part of the whole 'rating albums' >schema. Since that has ended, however, I have had time to reflect on the >status of music in contemporary society and have found that even in the >'underground,' it is viewed as and expected to be an industry. This should >not be surprising considering that 'popular' music is an industry that we >are constantly exposed on a daily basis; what transpires, then, is a >connection with music as pertaining to some 'industry,' whatever it may be. > The purpose of most music 'reviewing' today is to provide, then, a >consumptive schema for what is being reviewed; what ultimately comes to the >fore is whether or not the album is worth purchasing. Partly as a result >of this, critical interpretation is limited or ignored altogether, and the >significance of any one piece of music is dissolved into exchange value >instead of use value. > >'Best of' lists must be viewed in this context as they are, typically, >lists of recommendations to purchase based upon someone else's abstract >notions of worth. The most one usually receives is an artist and album, >along with a sentence or two of why the album is 'good,' which essentially >translates into why it should be consumed. Thus, 'best of' lists are >nothing more than advertising (as much as we would like to believe they are >expressions of personal aesthetic) and contribute to a standardization of >music. This occurs because the small descriptions become templates for >further production (this word was chosen explicitly for its meaning) of >music in the future. In popular music, a conservatism develops regardless >of artistic endeavors in part because of the limited forms allowed by the >culture industry; all else is regarded as 'alien' and thus 'not good.' Of >course this effect is minimal in the lesser-known musics as they are less >dominated by a hierarchy of public opinion and culture industry >dissemination; still, we can see the early fragments of this developing >here as well, as many yearn for the 'good old days.' This is why I feel >'best of' lists are not useful in the least, and a new way of expressing >opinion must be created. > >I would like to present the idea of a collective listening and discussion >of albums that members feel are excellent (not necessarily exclusively from >this year). While I am not sure what the exact result of this would be, it >most likely would disrupt the pattern of 'this is good so consume' >mentality, bring participating listmembers closer, and potentially return >thoughtful listening and discussion to the music. If enough are >interested, I will be happy to set up the framework for such an endeavor >(others would be welcomed to lead, of course). > >Regards, >Robert > >_________________________________________________________________ >Don?t worry if your Inbox will max out while you are enjoying the holidays. > Get MSN Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2003-12-11 22:15cutupsIt seems like there should be some kind of poll script where users can add their own title
From:
cutups
To:
Date:
Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:15:25 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
permalink · <026401c3c034$46f57670$19f9640a@stargate.local>
It seems like there should be some kind of poll script where users can add their own titles. But if not i might be willing to write one. - geoff/cutups ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pinkelton Wicham" <idmspam@pinkwerks.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
quoted 15 lines speaking of which - anybody up for attempting to set up a rudementary> speaking of which - anybody up for attempting to set up a rudementary > voting booth (or have a pre-built one) - some php/cgi whatever thing. i > know some of the folks around here run websights... though i enjoy > sifting the content out of the list as much as everyone it'd be nice to > have something a little more tech. > > -pink > > cutups wrote: > >>Is it too early to start talking best of 03? > > > > > > Give it about 3 more weeks. > > > > - geoff
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2003-12-11 22:40chthonic>> speaking of which - anybody up for attempting to set up a rudementary >> voting booth (
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chthonic
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Date:
Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:40:00 -0800
Subject:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
permalink · <200312111440.AA467927314@chthonicstreams.com>
quoted 1 line speaking of which - anybody up for attempting to set up a>> speaking of which - anybody up for attempting to set up a
rudementary
quoted 1 line voting booth (or have a pre-built one) - some php/cgi whatever>> voting booth (or have a pre-built one) - some php/cgi whatever
thing. see, this gets too much into the "list" or "ranking" mentality of this kind of thing. personally, i don't care the order, or how many people voted for a particular release. i want to hear *why* people think something was the best. i want descriptions, i want comparisons, i want passion for music. let's hear it. and leave the sterile "top 10" lists to the likes of entertainment weakly or david letterbomb. d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-11 23:08Pinkelton WichamI feel you about the "sterile 'top 10'" part but that's your words. I was mearly suggestin
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Pinkelton Wicham
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,
Date:
Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:08:30 -0800
Subject:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
Reply to:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
permalink · <3FD8F8EE.4090002@pinkwerks.com>
I feel you about the "sterile 'top 10'" part but that's your words. I was mearly suggesting a better formated place for the conception of "best" or "most popular". (We can even add a field for 'why i like this'). I don't have time to investigate every piece of music that comes under the "idm" moniker these days (most of which is shit) and I'm more willing to purchase (read : take a risk on purchase) on something that a few others think is a "good" album. Besides i'm lazy and I like to look in as few places as possible. i can create mail filters but it still takes me loads of time to sift through it all... Though, thinking about it one could point and say the list is already the best forum I suppose. And in the long run I'm gonna try and spoof any voting system with false positives anyway ;-) --pink
quoted 2 lines see, this gets too much into the "list" or "ranking" mentality of this> see, this gets too much into the "list" or "ranking" mentality of this > kind of thing.
quoted 6 lines i want to hear *why* people> i want to hear *why* people > think something was the best. i want descriptions, i want > comparisons, i want passion for music. let's hear it. > > and leave the sterile "top 10" lists to the likes of entertainment > weakly or david letterbomb.
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2003-12-11 22:49cutups> see, this gets too much into the "list" or "ranking" mentality of this > kind of thing.
From:
cutups
To:
Date:
Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:49:22 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
permalink · <028401c3c039$053a6dd0$19f9640a@stargate.local>
quoted 8 lines see, this gets too much into the "list" or "ranking" mentality of this> see, this gets too much into the "list" or "ranking" mentality of this > kind of thing. personally, i don't care the order, or how many > people voted for a particular release. i want to hear *why* people > think something was the best. i want descriptions, i want > comparisons, i want passion for music. let's hear it. > > and leave the sterile "top 10" lists to the likes of entertainment > weakly or david letterbomb.
Good point, i'd rather read good reviews of stuff i missed this year. But i'd like to hear that anytime really. Why i think a web poll is a good idea though is to keep the list from getting flooded with alot of sterile top 10 lists like you mention, and put the pure numbers voting on a webpage. Good desciptions and comparisons should be posted on here anytime IMO. - cutups --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-11 22:58chthonicFrom: "cutups" <cutup@andythepooh.com> >> see, this gets too much into the "list" or "rank
From:
chthonic
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Date:
Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:58:59 -0800
Subject:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
permalink · <200312111458.AA331219300@chthonicstreams.com>
From: "cutups" <cutup@andythepooh.com>
quoted 1 line see, this gets too much into the "list" or "ranking" mentality of>> see, this gets too much into the "list" or "ranking" mentality of
this
quoted 2 lines kind of thing. personally, i don't care the order, or how many>> kind of thing. personally, i don't care the order, or how many >> people voted for a particular release. i want to hear *why*
people
quoted 2 lines think something was the best. i want descriptions, i want>> think something was the best. i want descriptions, i want >> comparisons, i want passion for music.
quoted 1 line Good point, i'd rather read good reviews of stuff i missed this>Good point, i'd rather read good reviews of stuff i missed this
year.
quoted 2 lines But i'd like to hear that anytime really.>But i'd like to hear that anytime really. >Why i think a web poll is a good idea though is to keep the list
from
quoted 2 lines getting flooded>getting flooded >with alot of sterile top 10 lists like you mention, and put the pure
numbers
quoted 2 lines voting on a webpage.>voting on a webpage. >Good desciptions and comparisons should be posted on here
anytime IMO. then i think people will just vote on the webpage, which people like me will never visit, unless someone posts the results to the list, which brings back the same problem. if there is no webpage, or simple survey, people can just say what they want about the releases. i agree it should happen year-round, but on the lists i've been on, sometimes it takes something like this to give the discussions a kick-start. this kind of thing is also an opportunity for reflection in hindsight, or to put each release in perpective with similar releases in the same time period. also, one's initial review or reaction to a release may be different in this context or simply after a few months have passed (e.g. april: "'draft 7.0' is the highlight of autechre's career." december: "it's better than 'confield' but not as good as 'amber'.") d. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2003-12-11 23:25wownflutterHey I love lists of favs One place that blew my mind was: http://www.aquariusrecords.org/c
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wownflutter
To:
Date:
Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:25:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
Reply to:
Re: [idm] best of 2003 ?
permalink · <20031211232515.59525.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
Hey I love lists of favs One place that blew my mind was: http://www.aquariusrecords.org/customerfaves2002.html Simple and clean...leaving me free to listen to their samples and see if any would really pull me. But, that would be difficult to do, unless someone was web minded and had the time. Cheers --- chthonic <chthonic@chthonicstreams.com> wrote:
quoted 66 lines From: "cutups" <cutup@andythepooh.com>> > From: "cutups" <cutup@andythepooh.com> > > >> see, this gets too much into the "list" or > "ranking" mentality of > this > >> kind of thing. personally, i don't care the > order, or how many > >> people voted for a particular release. i want to > hear *why* > people > >> think something was the best. i want > descriptions, i want > >> comparisons, i want passion for music. > > >Good point, i'd rather read good reviews of stuff i > missed this > year. > >But i'd like to hear that anytime really. > >Why i think a web poll is a good idea though is to > keep the list > from > >getting flooded > >with alot of sterile top 10 lists like you mention, > and put the pure > numbers > >voting on a webpage. > >Good desciptions and comparisons should be posted > on here > anytime IMO. > > then i think people will just vote on the webpage, > which people like > me will never visit, unless someone posts the > results to the list, > which brings back the same problem. if there is no > webpage, or > simple survey, people can just say what they want > about the > releases. > > i agree it should happen year-round, but on the > lists i've been on, > sometimes it takes something like this to give the > discussions a > kick-start. this kind of thing is also an > opportunity for reflection in > hindsight, or to put each release in perpective with > similar > releases in the same time period. > > also, one's initial review or reaction to a release > may be different in > this context or simply after a few months have > passed > (e.g. april: "'draft 7.0' is the highlight of > autechre's career." > december: "it's better than 'confield' but not as > good as 'amber'.") > > > d. > > > >
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quoted 5 lines To unsubscribe, e-mail:> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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