IDM Mailing Archive

+++ Notwist-Newsletter +++ On August 4th, Notwist will release a tiny soundtrack for the film \"Lichter\" of Hans-Christian Schmid. On alientransistor. The band`s own, new record label. Lichter will be available on vinyl (12\"), only. For further information: www.alientransistor.de Please notice the dates of \"Weilheim auf Achse\": 04.Sept Genf L`usine Couch Ms John Soda Notwist 05. Sept Genf L`usine Tied&Tickled Trio Lali Puna Console 01. Okt Berlin Columbiafrizz Ms John Soda Tied&Tickled Trio Console 02.Okt Berlin Columbiafrizz Couch Lali Puna Notwist 04. Okt Brüssel AB Ms John Soda Tied&Tickled Trio Console 05.Okt Brüssel AB Couch Lali Puna Notwist 06. Okt Hamburg Markthalle Ms John Soda Tied&Tickled Trio Console 07.Okt Hamburg Markthalle Couch Lali Puna Notwist 08. Okt Köln Stollwerk Ms John Soda Tied&Tickled Trio Console 09.Okt Köln Stollwerk Couch Lali Puna Notwist 15. Okt München Alabamahalle Ms John Soda Tied&Tickled Trio Console 16.Okt München Alabamahalle Couch Lali Puna Notwist 28. Okt Wien WUK Ms John Soda Tied&Tickled Trio Console 29.Okt Wien WUK Couch Lali Puna Notwist Viele Grüße von Notwist! Best regards from Notwist! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Hello! Here's a DJ mix I put together for a radio show in Dublin. It's more electro/breaks than IDM but there's probably something in there for everybody. I totally cheated and mixed it all on my PC rather than recording it live off the decks as I always mess something up that way. :) http://homepage.eircom.net/~audio1/spin.html (73 megs) Tracklisting: 1) Aphex Twin - Untitled (from Selected Ambient Works Vol II, CD1 I think) [Warp] 2) Anthony Rother - Darkness [Mikrolux] 3) Autechre - Vose In [Warp] 4) Los Hermanos - Quetzal [Los Hermanos] 5) Jega - Post Mid Arc [Planet Mu] 6) Phoenecia - Odd Job (Get Fresh) [Schematic] 7) Buckfunk 3000 - The Breaks [Language] 8) Luke Slater - All Exhale [Novamute] 9) Decal - Growler [Rotters Golf Club] 10) Si Futures - We Are Not A Rock Band (Buckfunk 3000 remix) [Novamute] 11) Aphex Twin - Meltphace6 [Warp] 12) Tipper - Donut (Radioactive Man's Pull Up remix) [Fuel] 13) Gold Chains - Nada (Kid 606's Hold On To Your Hardcore Rmx) [Pias] 14) Si Begg - Buss [Novamute] 15) Anthony Rother - Don't Stop The Beat [Psi49net] 16) Buckfunk 3000 - Utopia [Fuel] 17) DMX Krew - What's That Bass?! [Breakin'] 18) Antipop Consortium - Ghostlawns (LFO Rik Waller Mix) [Warp] 19) **Intermission** 20) Cex - Just Don't Bite It [Tigerbeat6] 21) Culture Cruncher - Booty Shaker [Noodles] 22) The Soft Pink Truth - Acting Crazy [Soundslike] 23) Drexciya - Wavejumper [Underground Resistance] 24) Jackal & Hyde - Get Down To My Technique (Dynamix II remix) [Hallucination] 25) Autechre - Drane [Warp] -skkatter (yeah I know there are five Si Begg tracks in there, I'm a fan alright? :)) ===== http://www.skkatter.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I wouldn't call that cheating at all, and not just because I mix with a PC either. Almost every single headliner-level DJ in the world has used the same method for their promos and other released mixes, so why can't unknowns do it too? If some promoter wants _proof_ you can mix live, give it to them, but otherwise, I think PCs are the way to go for the dexterity-challenged. It only provides more interesting possibilities than the alternative...if the asses are shaking, I think the end justifies the means. N. On 28 Jul 2003 skkatter@yahoo.com wrote:

quoted 8 lines Hello! Here's a DJ mix I put together for a radio show

> Hello! Here's a DJ mix I put together for a radio show > in Dublin. It's more electro/breaks than IDM but > there's probably something in there for everybody. I > totally cheated and mixed it all on my PC rather than > recording it live off the decks as I always mess > something up that way. :) > > http://homepage.eircom.net/~audio1/spin.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

couldn't disagree with you more. i consider a DJ mix more than the sum of its parts- it's a live recording of a performance. as soon as i find out a mix was done on the computer i completely lose interest in it. and part of the fun of studio mixes is doing it over until you get it the way you want it! :) dave --- "N. Graham Worthington" <nworth1@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:

quoted 34 lines I wouldn't call that cheating at all, and not just

> I wouldn't call that cheating at all, and not just > because I mix with a PC > either. Almost every single headliner-level DJ in > the world has used the > same method for their promos and other released > mixes, so why can't > unknowns do it too? If some promoter wants _proof_ > you can mix live, give > it to them, but otherwise, I think PCs are the way > to go for the > dexterity-challenged. It only provides more > interesting possibilities > than the alternative...if the asses are shaking, I > think the end > justifies the means. > > N. > > On 28 Jul 2003 skkatter@yahoo.com wrote: > > > Hello! Here's a DJ mix I put together for a radio > show > > in Dublin. It's more electro/breaks than IDM but > > there's probably something in there for everybody. > I > > totally cheated and mixed it all on my PC rather > than > > recording it live off the decks as I always mess > > something up that way. :) > > > > http://homepage.eircom.net/~audio1/spin.html > > >

---------------------------------------------------------------------

quoted 5 lines To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > idm-help@hyperreal.org >

===== Dave Marwick | DJ M Tenderloft / Faultline / Freebeats San Francisco __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

dj m said:

quoted 6 lines couldn't disagree with you more. i consider a DJ mix

> couldn't disagree with you more. i consider a DJ mix > more than the sum of its parts- it's a live recording > of a performance. as soon as i find out a mix was > done on the computer i completely lose interest in it. > and part of the fun of studio mixes is doing it over > until you get it the way you want it! :) dave

That is a good point. When it's done on a computer, it's more like a sum of the parts, rather than a separate entity given to life by a DJ. A far cry from Qbert. At least, most mixes. But then again most *mixes* are just that, mix tape things, and most people don't slather their own name all over everything. derek -- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ------ it's in your grocer's freezer --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I don't care, it is nice to listen to, that's all that matters to me. Good work Skkatter. <spam> http://pilchard.servemp3.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=367#367 </spam> With Kind regards Lee Stacey Email : lee@codeaudio.com Tel : +44 (0) 1444 870794 Mob : +44 (0) 7734 414385 -----Original Message----- From: EggyToast [mailto:eggy@eggtastic.com] Sent: 28 July 2003 22:18 To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [idm] Re: IDM-ish mix dj m said:

quoted 6 lines couldn't disagree with you more. i consider a DJ mix

> couldn't disagree with you more. i consider a DJ mix > more than the sum of its parts- it's a live recording > of a performance. as soon as i find out a mix was > done on the computer i completely lose interest in it. > and part of the fun of studio mixes is doing it over > until you get it the way you want it! :) dave

That is a good point. When it's done on a computer, it's more like a sum of the parts, rather than a separate entity given to life by a DJ. A far cry from Qbert. At least, most mixes. But then again most *mixes* are just that, mix tape things, and most people don't slather their own name all over everything. derek -- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ------ it's in your grocer's freezer --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 14/07/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 14/07/2003 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I think the old concept of a dj mix is (ideally) on the way out. Although i mix with vinyl, i think there's so many more tools for doing interesting digital mixes, that its bound to come into its own as a valid form of mixing. The physical aspects will be downplayed to a much higher appriciation for sequencing and editing. At least, i'd like to see some djs take things this way. I haven't really had the time, and don't have all the tools that i'd like to to do this. - cutups ----- Original Message ----- From: "EggyToast" <eggy@eggtastic.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [idm] Re: IDM-ish mix

quoted 9 lines dj m said:

> dj m said: > > couldn't disagree with you more. i consider a DJ mix > > more than the sum of its parts- it's a live recording > > of a performance. as soon as i find out a mix was > > done on the computer i completely lose interest in it. > > and part of the fun of studio mixes is doing it over > > until you get it the way you want it! :) dave > > That is a good point. When it's done on a computer, it's more like a sum

of

quoted 19 lines the parts, rather than a separate entity given to life by a DJ. A far cry

> the parts, rather than a separate entity given to life by a DJ. A far cry > from Qbert. > > At least, most mixes. But then again most *mixes* are just that, mix tape > things, and most people don't slather their own name all over everything. > > derek > -- > eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com > ------ > it's in your grocer's freezer > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

well yeah, i use finalscratch and cdj as well as vinyl but these tools still require live mixing. i was referring only to "protools mixes" that aren't recorded live in one go. --- cutups <cutup@andythepooh.com> wrote:

quoted 61 lines I think the old concept of a dj mix is (ideally) on

> I think the old concept of a dj mix is (ideally) on > the way out. Although i mix with vinyl, i think > there's > so many more tools for doing interesting digital > mixes, > that its bound to come into its own as a valid form > of mixing. > The physical aspects will be downplayed to a much > higher > appriciation for sequencing and editing. > > At least, i'd like to see some djs take things this > way. > I haven't really had the time, and don't have all > the tools > that i'd like to to do this. > > - cutups > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "EggyToast" <eggy@eggtastic.com> > To: <idm@hyperreal.org> > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 5:17 PM > Subject: Re: [idm] Re: IDM-ish mix > > > > dj m said: > > > couldn't disagree with you more. i consider a > DJ mix > > > more than the sum of its parts- it's a live > recording > > > of a performance. as soon as i find out a mix > was > > > done on the computer i completely lose interest > in it. > > > and part of the fun of studio mixes is doing it > over > > > until you get it the way you want it! :) dave > > > > That is a good point. When it's done on a > computer, it's more like a sum > of > > the parts, rather than a separate entity given to > life by a DJ. A far cry > > from Qbert. > > > > At least, most mixes. But then again most *mixes* > are just that, mix tape > > things, and most people don't slather their own > name all over everything. > > > > derek > > -- > > eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com > > ------ > > it's in your grocer's freezer > > > > > > > > >

---------------------------------------------------------------------

quoted 9 lines To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: > idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > >

---------------------------------------------------------------------

quoted 5 lines To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > idm-help@hyperreal.org >

===== Dave Marwick | DJ M Tenderloft / Faultline / Freebeats San Francisco __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 02:46 PM 7/28/2003 -0700, you wrote:

quoted 4 lines well yeah, i use finalscratch and cdj as well as vinyl

>well yeah, i use finalscratch and cdj as well as vinyl >but these tools still require live mixing. i was >referring only to "protools mixes" that aren't >recorded live in one go.

I just think that if you're sitting at a computer and can do it all with as much time as you want, what's stopping you from chopping things up a bit more and actually making your own songs? Not you in particular, just in general. -- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ----- it's in your grocer's freezer --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Yeah, that's sort of my point too. If you're already sitting in front of a computer and using these tools, what's stopping you from spending a little more time and making it that much more "yours?" I mean, people are really impressed when a DJ, such as Qbert or Kid Koala, can take records and spin/cut them live on turntables and make new tracks out of them. Mostly because it's a lot of skill involved and it's all live. Vs. in the studio where you're sitting there and can make everything just right. If you can make it just right, why not skip the whole "mixing two people's songs together" and go right to "chopping up their stuff to make some original-type music, a la amon tobin" ? derek At 04:28 PM 7/28/2003 -0700, dj m wrote:

quoted 37 lines not quite sure what your point is but yeah i think

>not quite sure what your point is but yeah i think >that's the exciting thing about CDJ, FS, traktor etc: >the ease with which one can go from authoring music to >having a product ready for DJing. > >--- EggyToast <eggy@eggtastic.com> wrote: > > At 02:46 PM 7/28/2003 -0700, you wrote: > > >well yeah, i use finalscratch and cdj as well as > > vinyl > > >but these tools still require live mixing. i was > > >referring only to "protools mixes" that aren't > > >recorded live in one go. > > > > I just think that if you're sitting at a computer > > and can do it all with as > > much time as you want, what's stopping you from > > chopping things up a bit > > more and actually making your own songs? > > > > Not you in particular, just in general. > > > > -- > > eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com > > ----- > > it's in your grocer's freezer > > > > >===== >Dave Marwick | DJ M >Tenderloft / Faultline / Freebeats >San Francisco > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

-- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ----- it's in your grocer's freezer --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Go for it duder. I have considered doing a mix like that in Acid, but I did one mix and decided I couldn't take all the tweaking on tempos to get shit lined up. One of these days I'll put that up -- it's my Cornwarning Allstars Mix. On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, EggyToast wrote:

quoted 14 lines Yeah, that's sort of my point too. If you're already sitting in front of a

> Yeah, that's sort of my point too. If you're already sitting in front of a > computer and using these tools, what's stopping you from spending a little > more time and making it that much more "yours?" > > I mean, people are really impressed when a DJ, such as Qbert or Kid Koala, > can take records and spin/cut them live on turntables and make new tracks > out of them. Mostly because it's a lot of skill involved and it's all > live. Vs. in the studio where you're sitting there and can make everything > just right. If you can make it just right, why not skip the whole "mixing > two people's songs together" and go right to "chopping up their stuff to > make some original-type music, a la amon tobin" ? > > derek >

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On 28 Jul 2003 dj m <djm_freebeats@yahoo.com> wrote:

quoted 6 lines couldn't disagree with you more. i consider a DJ mix

> couldn't disagree with you more. i consider a DJ mix > more than the sum of its parts- it's a live recording > of a performance. as soon as i find out a mix was > done on the computer i completely lose interest in it. > and part of the fun of studio mixes is doing it over > until you get it the way you want it! :) dave

"as soon as i find out a mix was done on the computer i completely lose interest in it." Are you implying you are less than perfect at detecting if a mix was done on a computer through listening alone? If so, what does that say about your decision-making process? Call me old fashioned, but I have always decided what music interested me by my own subjective emotional and intellectual response to the audio itself. I have never decided what interested me by evaluating how it got from the artist's or DJ's head into my ears. Maybe, if I heard the best track _ever_ and then found out the sample material was derived from the sounds of dying children, or some really cute puppy dogs getting run through a meat grinder, or something else involving uninvited violence, I might change my mind on that position. N. PS Whoever has that tagline that says "when dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases" (or something like that) -- you're dead on, mate. NP : DJ Jazzy Jeff - The Magnificent PPS Why do I bother trying to convince people to broaden their horizons, it'll only make the slsk queues longer. :D

quoted 17 lines --- "N. Graham Worthington" <nworth1@gl.umbc.edu>

> --- "N. Graham Worthington" <nworth1@gl.umbc.edu> > wrote: > > I wouldn't call that cheating at all, and not just > > because I mix with a PC > > either. Almost every single headliner-level DJ in > > the world has used the > > same method for their promos and other released > > mixes, so why can't > > unknowns do it too? If some promoter wants _proof_ > > you can mix live, give > > it to them, but otherwise, I think PCs are the way > > to go for the > > dexterity-challenged. It only provides more > > interesting possibilities > > than the alternative...if the asses are shaking, I > > think the end > > justifies the means.

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I bet this kind of debate took place in the realm of music recording as well when studio production started to take off and a "recording" became more than a live capture of what went down in a studio. I can respect that point of view, and "live" tracks can have something special going for them that's hard to invoke in a track which is assembled and manipulated in a studio. That doesn't make the studio method less valid or interesting, just different. On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, N. Graham Worthington wrote:

quoted 31 lines On 28 Jul 2003 dj m <djm_freebeats@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 28 Jul 2003 dj m <djm_freebeats@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > couldn't disagree with you more. i consider a DJ mix > > more than the sum of its parts- it's a live recording > > of a performance. as soon as i find out a mix was > > done on the computer i completely lose interest in it. > > and part of the fun of studio mixes is doing it over > > until you get it the way you want it! :) dave > > "as soon as i find out a mix was done on the computer i completely lose > interest in it." > > Are you implying you are less than perfect at detecting if a mix was done > on a computer through listening alone? If so, what does that say about > your decision-making process? > > Call me old fashioned, but I have always decided what music interested me > by my own subjective emotional and intellectual response to the audio > itself. I have never decided what interested me by evaluating how it got > from the artist's or DJ's head into my ears. > > Maybe, if I heard the best track _ever_ and then found out the sample > material was derived from the sounds of dying children, or some really > cute puppy dogs getting run through a meat grinder, or something else > involving uninvited violence, I might change my mind on that position. > > N. > > PS Whoever has that tagline that says "when dogma enters the brain, all > intellectual activity ceases" (or something like that) -- you're dead on, > mate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Dan Haskovec said:

quoted 7 lines I bet this kind of debate took place in the realm of music recording as

> I bet this kind of debate took place in the realm of music recording as > well when studio production started to take off and a "recording" > became more than a live capture of what went down in a studio. I can > respect that point of view, and "live" tracks can have something > special going for them that's hard to invoke in a track which is > assembled and manipulated in a studio. That doesn't make the studio > method less valid or interesting, just different.

I think it also depends on what you were listening for in the music. For example, if you listen to a band because you find the guitar playing fantastic, yet discover that all of the guitar on the album is a paid studio musician, you're going to feel gyped. Not because the music is worse, but because what you expected -- that the artists on the record were the ones playing the instruments -- turned out to be rather false. So it makes sense that someone could feel the same way about a DJ, too. If you buy a DJ mix, you buy it under the impression that it's done on the fly. Complex time signatures matching up just right and super-long crossfades coupled with quick cuts and a wide use of samples is *really* impressive when it's done live. When it's done in a studio, it's just music, since you can tinker with it until it's perfect. If you were expecting a mix showing someone's turntable skills, it's a bit of a let down. Cos there's something to be said about appreciating music for the technical skill or "talent" behind it. I'd imagine people on the IDM list would have a firsthand understanding of that concept ;D --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Eggy wrote: I think it also depends on what you were listening for in the music. For example, if you listen to a band because you find the guitar playing fantastic, yet discover that all of the guitar on the album is a paid studio musician, you're going to feel gyped. Not because the music is worse, but because what you expected -- that the artists on the record were the ones playing the instruments -- turned out to be rather false. Zach replies: There is a vocal bit on one of the tracks on the relatively new DJ shadow album. To paraphrase it, it says "It's not you that have betrayed your ideals but your ideals that have betrayed you". I think this discussion perfectly illustrates that point. If you truely enjoyed the way something sounds and then you find that it wasn't produced in the way you thought it was and you no longer enjoy it then it is not reality that is screwing you, reality has allways been as it is (completly indifferent to what you would like to belive), but it is your belifs about the way things "should" be that are fucking you over. Love based on quality of product not procedure. Now, I can see one saying "oh my god it is amazing that that was done by someone outside of a studio" or whatever the case may be. But this is a awe of technique, which can be paired with, but shouldn't be confused with product itself. I see nothing wrong with admiring either one indvidualy, or both together. zach _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 19 lines There is a vocal bit on one of the tracks on the relatively new DJ

> There is a vocal bit on one of the tracks on the relatively new DJ > shadow album. To paraphrase it, it says "It's not you that have > betrayed your ideals but your ideals that have betrayed you". I think > this discussion perfectly illustrates that point. > > If you truely enjoyed the way something sounds and then you find that > it wasn't produced in the way you thought it was and you no longer > enjoy it then it is not reality that is screwing you, reality has > allways been as it is (completly indifferent to what you would like to > belive), but it is your belifs about the way things "should" be that > are fucking you over. > > Love based on quality of product not procedure. > > Now, I can see one saying "oh my god it is amazing that that was done > by someone outside of a studio" or whatever the case may be. But this > is a awe of technique, which can be paired with, but shouldn't be > confused with product itself. I see nothing wrong with admiring either > one indvidualy, or both together.

Yeah, I agree. And if someone loves something for the procedure -- for example, liking squarepusher simply because it's fast and hectic rather than the quality bass playing and funky breaks, or likes autechre because of the weird noises rather than the subtle musicalities --they're going to be upset when/if they discover that the procedure they love is either really easy to do, or not really the people in question. Arguably, if you love music just for the music, then you don't really care who made it or what made it -- you just like how it's done. Which is why I think there's such a divide between liking Boards of Canada or not among fans of electronic music -- there isn't much there that's technically impressive, but the songs are just so damn good ;D derek -- eggytoast.com - eggtastic.com ------ it's in your grocer's freezer --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org