IDM Mailing Archive

the way i see it, quite simply, if artists don't make a living from sales of hard copies of their work, they will ultimately have to return to life-eating day-jobs which will only destroy their potential. you can't be expected to create great music as well as catching the bus to work every morning...

quoted 76 lines From: "skism" <cazeone@ramdis.com>

>From: "skism" <cazeone@ramdis.com> >Reply-To: <cazeone@ramdis.com> >To: <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: RE: [idm] 2003: The Year the Music Industry Dies - Wired Magazine, >2/2003 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:03:24 -0000 > > >Didn't I read somewhere that the Industries loss in sales was actually due >to >a drop in production, which they tried to cover up in order to have some >ammunition for the war against p2p? > >But in the end I can't see the Industry disappearing anytime soon... Their >revenues are still huge so the worst I can see happening is a little belt >tightening or maybe the odd merger and acquisition here and there. > >What's great about capitalism is that it gives an opportunity for small >more efficient companies to adapt to new circumstances where the larger >companies are too bloated and inefficient to change in time to deal with >them. But I guess the music industry is a little different due to the >fact that it's dealing with peoples taste (or lack of), so who knows.. > >But even if they did all go bust it wouldn't be much of a problem for >most of the people on this list, who i'm sure buy much of their music >in specialist stores stocked full of independant music? > >...skism > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brett Dietsch [mailto:elph@lawngnome.org] > > Sent: 17 January 2003 17:40 > > To: seeklektek > > Cc: idm@hyperreal.org > > Subject: Re: [idm] 2003: The Year the Music Industry Dies - Wired > > Magazine, 2/2003 > > > > > > > > On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 12:24 PM, seeklektek wrote: > > > > > > The article, in Wired's Feb.2003 issue, on newsstands now, opens with >a > > > prediction by the late Timothy White, > > > editor of Billboard, that the Music Industry will die in 2003. Aw, > > > gee: > > > wouldn't that be too bad?! ;) > > > > probably, yeah it would be. > > dont get me wrong, im not a big fan of labels and everything, but they > > are a semi-necessary evil. > > if noone buys the cd's and everyone pirates them, the companies no > > longer have any reason to put out cd's, which in turn means noone has > > cd's to pirate, which reinstates the need for cd distribution, > > which.... well.. go back to the beginning. > > > > hell yes, i pirate music. i also buy what i like and trash what i > > dont. most people just pirate music. im not pulling a moral high > > ground pose here, but seriously.. if the industry goes away, any hope > > at decent distribution will also go away. > > > > i _LIKE_ having access to artists all over the world, being able to > > find almost any genre of music, and lots that i've never heard of. no > > industry, no distribution, less choices. > > > > now, if only the industry would play nice.. > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

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quoted 5 lines the way i see it, quite simply, if artists don't make a living from sales of

> the way i see it, quite simply, if artists don't make a living from sales of > hard copies of their work, they will ultimately have to return to > life-eating day-jobs which will only destroy their potential. > you can't be expected to create great music as well as catching the bus to > work every morning...

This will *mostly* only happen to the artists that deserve it. Let's try to loosly categorize recording artists (this isn't exhaustive): I. Untalented Artists i. No image - These artists don't have any sales anyway, so it doesn't matter. Plus, they're untalented, so they don't deserve to make a living off music. ii. Appealing image a. bad production/little ambition/little luck - No sales and no record companies means that these artists, who sometimes get rich, will flounder. And deservingly so. b. good production/ambitious/lucky - Even with minimal record sales, a few of these artists will make it and drive us nuts. But that's how the world works. They will have huge stadium shows, appear on MTV, and have their 15 minutes of fame. Perhaps they will make slightly less money in the pure digital music world, but it doesn't matter, because many will lose it all anyway by the age of 29. II. (somewhat or very) Talented Artists i. Mainstream appeal (U2, Madonna, Radiohead, Bjork, etc.) - Will continue to make loads of money by touring, movie soundtracks, etc. They are barely hurt by dropping record sales. ii. Nonmainstream appeal a. Strong fan base (Boards of Canada, Aphex Twin, Tortoise, etc) - Will make money with touring, or if they don't tour much, with album sales etc. because their fans are obsessive and will buy anything they release. They will make a complete living off this, but can't expect to be extremely well-off because, after all, they appeal to a *relatively* small group of people. b. Experimental w/ little fan support (countless examples) - Here's the tricky one. They don't appeal to many people, but their existence is crucial because it makes music interesting and progressive (standard e.g. Neu! wasn't popular but influenced music dramatically). However, these type of people fall into two (perhaps not mutually exclusive) categories: 1. Come from wealthy families, don't need to worry about day to day living. - Obviously record sales don't hurt these people, until Daddy pulls the plug, and perhaps they've made it by then. If not, well at least they had the chance. 2. Are so passionate about music, that they will take sacrifice everything to be able to make it. - The really great artists fall here. Some get lucky and eventually make it. Others don't. But whether there is music pirating or not isn't going to stop them from making music. If they are truly talented, their work will eventually get discovered, and then they can tour, be happy, and move into category I.ii.a. Otherwise, they will tragically disappear. But such disappearance isn't new - being an artist has always had that risk. And in my opinion, this risk will actually *decrease* once recording companies fall away, because the public won't be as hand-fed their music as in the past. But this is but a prediction. So who gets hurt who might not anyway with decreasing record sales? No category that I can think of. As I said, this isn't exhaustive, so if people come up with new categories, I'm all game. -marco --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines So who gets hurt who might not anyway with decreasing record sales? No

>So who gets hurt who might not anyway with decreasing record sales? No >category that I can think of. As I said, this isn't exhaustive, so if >people come up with new categories, I'm all game. >

Simple. The artists can gain by going directly to their fan base, right? The pop stars are still making money, because they're all about the merchandising, right? So it's the people releasing the information in the first place -- the spin doctors, PR people, scouts, and middle-management that stand to lose everything. Their jobs are created around the music "industry" remaining just that -- assembly line, predictable music that they can create a demand for. And they're the ones who aren't even in to making or really listening to music. They're in it because it's a business. They know that regardless of what changes, the artists and listers are still going to be there for each other, and that listeners would be happy to pay artists directly. And that's why they employ such silly scare tactics as "$ lost to pirates, yar." derek -- eggytoast.com -------------- commerce soon: eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

It seems to me that a large percentage of the Electronic music listened to by this list is produced by people with propper jobs, doesn't seem to affect the quality. While having more time to spend at something can obviously only be a good thing it doesnt seem to be essential. skism

quoted 111 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: cath animon [mailto:cathanimon@hotmail.com] > Sent: 17 January 2003 18:10 > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: RE: [idm] 2003: The Year the Music Industry Dies - Wired > Magazine, 2/2003 > > > > the way i see it, quite simply, if artists don't make a living > from sales of > hard copies of their work, they will ultimately have to return to > life-eating day-jobs which will only destroy their potential. > you can't be expected to create great music as well as catching > the bus to > work every morning... > > > > > >From: "skism" <cazeone@ramdis.com> > >Reply-To: <cazeone@ramdis.com> > >To: <idm@hyperreal.org> > >Subject: RE: [idm] 2003: The Year the Music Industry Dies - > Wired Magazine, > >2/2003 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:03:24 -0000 > > > > > >Didn't I read somewhere that the Industries loss in sales was > actually due > >to > >a drop in production, which they tried to cover up in order to have some > >ammunition for the war against p2p? > > > >But in the end I can't see the Industry disappearing anytime > soon... Their > >revenues are still huge so the worst I can see happening is a little belt > >tightening or maybe the odd merger and acquisition here and there. > > > >What's great about capitalism is that it gives an opportunity for small > >more efficient companies to adapt to new circumstances where the larger > >companies are too bloated and inefficient to change in time to deal with > >them. But I guess the music industry is a little different due to the > >fact that it's dealing with peoples taste (or lack of), so who knows.. > > > >But even if they did all go bust it wouldn't be much of a problem for > >most of the people on this list, who i'm sure buy much of their music > >in specialist stores stocked full of independant music? > > > >...skism > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Brett Dietsch [mailto:elph@lawngnome.org] > > > Sent: 17 January 2003 17:40 > > > To: seeklektek > > > Cc: idm@hyperreal.org > > > Subject: Re: [idm] 2003: The Year the Music Industry Dies - Wired > > > Magazine, 2/2003 > > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 12:24 PM, seeklektek wrote: > > > > > > > > The article, in Wired's Feb.2003 issue, on newsstands now, > opens with > >a > > > > prediction by the late Timothy White, > > > > editor of Billboard, that the Music Industry will die in 2003. Aw, > > > > gee: > > > > wouldn't that be too bad?! ;) > > > > > > probably, yeah it would be. > > > dont get me wrong, im not a big fan of labels and everything, but they > > > are a semi-necessary evil. > > > if noone buys the cd's and everyone pirates them, the companies no > > > longer have any reason to put out cd's, which in turn means noone has > > > cd's to pirate, which reinstates the need for cd distribution, > > > which.... well.. go back to the beginning. > > > > > > hell yes, i pirate music. i also buy what i like and trash what i > > > dont. most people just pirate music. im not pulling a moral high > > > ground pose here, but seriously.. if the industry goes away, any hope > > > at decent distribution will also go away. > > > > > > i _LIKE_ having access to artists all over the world, being able to > > > find almost any genre of music, and lots that i've never heard of. no > > > industry, no distribution, less choices. > > > > > > now, if only the industry would play nice.. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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From: "cath animon" Subject: RE: [idm] 2003: The Year the Music Industry Dies - Wired Magazine, 2/2003

quoted 1 line the way i see it, quite simply, if artists don't make a living from sales

> the way i see it, quite simply, if artists don't make a living from sales

of

quoted 4 lines hard copies of their work, they will ultimately have to return to

> hard copies of their work, they will ultimately have to return to > life-eating day-jobs which will only destroy their potential. > you can't be expected to create great music as well as catching the bus to > work every morning...

It can be fairly assumed that most of the creators of music discussed on this list are not making their living in the now-dying music industry. Dntel needs 'the music industry' to survive? Astrobotnia needs 'the music industry' to survive? The Residents need 'the music industry' to survive? Phthalo needs 'the music industry' to survive? Kompakt Koln need 'the music industry' to survive? David Toop needs 'the music industry' to survive? Aphex Twin needs 'the music industry' to survive?????????? Puhleeeeeeeeeeeze! Pete Townsend needs the music industry to survive, that's Who needs it. Avril Lavigne needs to get a job anyway, a real job. Alicia Keys can wait tables, I'm sure. Let Puffy try workin' at the Car Wash: it's about time that he come clean, anyhow. Fuck BMG and EMI: long live the indies! .o0O}seeklektek{O0o. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 01:38 PM, seeklektek wrote:

quoted 29 lines From: "cath animon"

> > From: "cath animon" > Subject: RE: [idm] 2003: The Year the Music Industry Dies - Wired > Magazine, > 2/2003 > > > >> the way i see it, quite simply, if artists don't make a living from >> sales > of >> hard copies of their work, they will ultimately have to return to >> life-eating day-jobs which will only destroy their potential. >> you can't be expected to create great music as well as catching the >> bus to >> work every morning... > > > It can be fairly assumed that most of the creators of music > discussed on this list are not making their living in the now-dying > music industry. > > Dntel needs 'the music industry' to survive? > Astrobotnia needs 'the music industry' to survive? > The Residents need 'the music industry' to survive? > Phthalo needs 'the music industry' to survive? > Kompakt Koln need 'the music industry' to survive? > David Toop needs 'the music industry' to survive? > Aphex Twin needs 'the music industry' to survive??????????

these are established artists. what about those who arent yet established? how will they get their name out? touring? that'd work, thats how it used to be done. bbuuut.... how would they support themselves while touring? with the money they get paid for touring! and how would they buy new gear? with the money they get paid for touring! and.. how would they get from place to place? with the money they get paid for touring! and how much do unknown people make while touring? ALMOST NOTHING. get the picture? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

The majority of our roster don't have day jobs and actually make a reasonable living. If "labels" cease to operate they then will need a day job or will be spending so much time trying to figure out how to sell their music to make a living that they will in effect have a new day job...as their own record label. Or perhaps their next record could be underwritten by Nike...that would be so much more appealing then an evil record label. People on our levels don't make money touring (or very little). Labels will always be around. Maybe the scope of what we do will change, but let's face it. There's a lot of sucky music out there. Labels do act as a quality filter for the most part (whether you agree with the choices or not...if you don't, start your own label and show the world). I'm talking small indie labels here. It needs to be constantly adressed there is 2 levels on discussion here. Jeff

quoted 69 lines From: Brett Dietsch <elph@lawngnome.org>

> From: Brett Dietsch <elph@lawngnome.org> > Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:47:04 -0500 > To: "seeklektek" <eclectic@attbi.com> > Cc: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: [idm] 2003: The Year the Music Industry Dies - Wired Magazine, > 2/2003 > > > On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 01:38 PM, seeklektek wrote: > >> >> From: "cath animon" >> Subject: RE: [idm] 2003: The Year the Music Industry Dies - Wired >> Magazine, >> 2/2003 >> >> >> >>> the way i see it, quite simply, if artists don't make a living from >>> sales >> of >>> hard copies of their work, they will ultimately have to return to >>> life-eating day-jobs which will only destroy their potential. >>> you can't be expected to create great music as well as catching the >>> bus to >>> work every morning... >> >> >> It can be fairly assumed that most of the creators of music >> discussed on this list are not making their living in the now-dying >> music industry. >> >> Dntel needs 'the music industry' to survive? >> Astrobotnia needs 'the music industry' to survive? >> The Residents need 'the music industry' to survive? >> Phthalo needs 'the music industry' to survive? >> Kompakt Koln need 'the music industry' to survive? >> David Toop needs 'the music industry' to survive? >> Aphex Twin needs 'the music industry' to survive?????????? > > these are established artists. > what about those who arent yet established? > > how will they get their name out? > > touring? > > that'd work, thats how it used to be done. > bbuuut.... > how would they support themselves while touring? > with the money they get paid for touring! > > and how would they buy new gear? > with the money they get paid for touring! > > and.. how would they get from place to place? > with the money they get paid for touring! > > and how much do unknown people make while touring? > ALMOST NOTHING. > > > get the picture? > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 02:08 PM, Jeff/Ninja Tune wrote:

quoted 21 lines The majority of our roster don't have day jobs and actually make a

> The majority of our roster don't have day jobs and actually make a > reasonable living. If "labels" cease to operate they then will need a > day > job or will be spending so much time trying to figure out how to sell > their > music to make a living that they will in effect have a new day job...as > their own record label. Or perhaps their next record could be > underwritten > by Nike...that would be so much more appealing then an evil record > label. > People on our levels don't make money touring (or very little). Labels > will > always be around. Maybe the scope of what we do will change, but let's > face > it. There's a lot of sucky music out there. Labels do act as a quality > filter for the most part (whether you agree with the choices or > not...if you > don't, start your own label and show the world). I'm talking small > indie > labels here. It needs to be constantly adressed there is 2 levels on > discussion here.

DONT LISTEN TO HIM HE'S THE ENEMY HE WORKS FOR A LABEL RUN AND HIDE. >:-D --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:08:31 -0500 Jeff/Ninja Tune <jeff@ninjatune.net> wrote:

quoted 25 lines The majority of our roster don't have day jobs and

>The majority of our roster don't have day jobs and >actually make a >reasonable living. If "labels" cease to operate they then >will need a day >job or will be spending so much time trying to figure out >how to sell their >music to make a living that they will in effect have a >new day job...as >their own record label. Or perhaps their next record >could be underwritten >by Nike...that would be so much more appealing then an >evil record label. >People on our levels don't make money touring (or very >little). Labels will >always be around. Maybe the scope of what we do will >change, but let's face >it. There's a lot of sucky music out there. Labels do act >as a quality >filter for the most part (whether you agree with the >choices or not...if you >don't, start your own label and show the world). I'm >talking small indie >labels here. It needs to be constantly adressed there is >2 levels on >discussion here.

Jeff, do you mind if I cut and paste this to Slashdot/Fark/wherever the next time people post that music should be free, and that bands all make money touring? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

for my filters i use several radio dj-s works just fine my interests are cross label __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 4 lines Jeff, do you mind if I cut and paste this to Slashdot/Fark/wherever

>Jeff, do you mind if I cut and paste this to Slashdot/Fark/wherever >the next time people post that music should be free, and that bands >all make money touring? >

tying in the copyright debacle of wednesday, you could add this, too, from a journal I'm working on today: "When properly balanced," [Siva] Vaidhyanathan contends, " copyright allows users to enjoy the benefits of cultural proliferation at relatively low cost through a limited state-granted monopoly. Libraries help that process by letting the wealthy subsidize information for the poor. And a thin, leaky copyright system allows people to comment on copyrighted works, make copies for teaching and research, and record their favorite programs for later viewing. Eventually, a copyright runs out, and the work enters the "public domain" for all of us to enjoy at an even lower cost. But when constructed recklessly [to protect the publisher and not the free flow of information,] copyright can once again be an instrument of censorship. " -- I really like this job sometimes :) derek -- eggytoast.com -------------- commerce soon: eggtastic.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Subject: Re: [idm] 2003: The Year the Music Industry Dies - Wired Magazine, 2/2003

quoted 8 lines On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 01:38 PM, seeklektek wrote:

> On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 01:38 PM, seeklektek wrote: > > Dntel needs 'the music industry' to survive? > > Astrobotnia needs 'the music industry' to survive? > > The Residents need 'the music industry' to survive? > > Phthalo needs 'the music industry' to survive? > > Kompakt Koln need 'the music industry' to survive? > > David Toop needs 'the music industry' to survive? > > Aphex Twin needs 'the music industry' to survive??????????

From: "Brett Dietsch"

quoted 1 line these are established artists.

> these are established artists.

Established in 'the music industry'????????? Established by the establishment of the music industry? No way. .o0O}seeklektek{O0o. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

No, you're right, it usually isn't that way. But I think that it is for most of the people we hear about and love. And remember that I said that there's underlying talent in this category. If you keep up the good work, pray to God everyday, and buy a new T-Ford, as long as you have underlying goodness, well, yes, perhaps it *will* happen to you. Or perhaps not. It's based on luck as well.

quoted 9 lines And to Marco Carbone:

> And to Marco Carbone: > "If they are truly talented, their work will eventually get discovered, and > then they can tour, be happy, and move into category I.ii.a." > > This was just about the most stupid thing I ever heard. So if you just keep > up the good work, pray to God everyday and buy a new T-Ford it will all > happen to you... Kind of like "New Family-video"... > > No dis-respect actually but it just isn't that way I guess...

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