IDM Mailing Archive

i've heard this notion brought up before, and i thought i'd post about it: is there anybody out there (labels, or artists) that's selling music in a purely digital (mp3?) format? like for example - having a server that people buy a subscription to gain access to all the releases on mp3 (high quality of course). perhaps you could offer special releases for "free" (on vinyl, or tshirts, etc) to subscribers that you mail to them, as an incentive to subscribe rather than just get the releases 2nd hand filesharing. i know tracker groups do this in a way, although the ones i always followed gave their music away. of course there alot of issues with this model, and there might be a better one. but it would seem like something that would involve little risk to set up, as opposed to printing tons of cds. plus it might address the fact that more and more people listen to digital formats when it comes down to it. and it allows them to feel satisfied that their money is going to the artists more directly. - cutups

quoted 9 lines but it would seem like something that would involve

> but it would seem like something that would involve > little risk to set up, as opposed > to printing tons of cds. plus it might address the > fact that more and more people listen > to digital formats when it comes down to it. and it > allows them to feel satisfied that > their money is going to the artists more directly. > > - cutups

one problem i see is that most people tend to d/l the same things. for instance, take a look on soulseek at most peoples' shared files and you're probably likely to see things extracted from the same narrow pool of interests with perhaps a few unexpecteds. i love music, i make music, blah blah blah... but when it comes down to it, if something has ONLY been released on mp3 i won't usually check it out unless it's a friend or it's got some unusual amount of hype attatched to it. a couple of days ago i decided to go the other way on this and check out some of the mp3 labels online, and without naming names and setting aside issues personal taste, it seems to me that there's a reason this stuff hasn't been released. i can enjoy something that is a little amateurish or derivative in a live setting because in that environment i can be engaged and reactive, but when i'm just listening at home i'd rather listen to something that's worth it's salt. 2cents, gregory __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Well there are label services like http://www.emusic.com There is the MP3 subscription of http://www.badorb.com and there are purely free releases like those from http://www.mono211.com and http://www.subverseco.com as well as a miriad of others. I'm not sure how the above differs from the question you asked below but I can confirm that there are plenty of ways to receive MP3s for free as well as for money. Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music > Digital Culture ----- Original Message ----- From: "cutups" <cutup@andythepooh.com> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 4:37 PM Subject: [idm] mp3/subscription service i've heard this notion brought up before, and i thought i'd post about it: is there anybody out there (labels, or artists) that's selling music in a purely digital (mp3?) format? like for example - having a server that people buy a subscription to gain access to all the releases on mp3 (high quality of course). perhaps you could offer special releases for "free" (on vinyl, or tshirts, etc) to subscribers that you mail to them, as an incentive to subscribe rather than just get the releases 2nd hand filesharing. i know tracker groups do this in a way, although the ones i always followed gave their music away. of course there alot of issues with this model, and there might be a better one. but it would seem like something that would involve little risk to set up, as opposed to printing tons of cds. plus it might address the fact that more and more people listen to digital formats when it comes down to it. and it allows them to feel satisfied that their money is going to the artists more directly. - cutups --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I hear you on that issue. I think of course, to be successful you'd have to make a good poduct, no doubt. As it is, releasing mp3s costs nothing, and so artists who may not be that great can do it as easily as artists that are good. But set that aide - if there were mp3s for sale of tunes that you would have bought on cd (or vinyl, or whatever format you buy) would you buy them? Or does it feel like you are paying for something with no substance? Or other issues. I can see many, but i'm trying to work out, the potential issues that come up - cutups

quoted 8 lines i can enjoy something that is a little amateurish or

> i can enjoy something that is a little amateurish or > derivative in a live setting because in that > environment i can be engaged and reactive, but when > i'm just listening at home i'd rather listen to > something that's worth it's salt. > > 2cents, > gregory

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At 10:02 PM 7/15/2002 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 10 lines I hear you on that issue. I think of course, to be successful

>I hear you on that issue. I think of course, to be successful >you'd have to make a good poduct, no doubt. As it is, releasing >mp3s costs nothing, and so artists who may not be that great >can do it as easily as artists that are good. > >But set that aide - if there were mp3s for sale of tunes >that you would have bought on cd (or vinyl, or whatever format you buy) >would you buy them? Or does it feel like you are paying for something >with no substance? Or other issues. I can see many, but >i'm trying to work out, the potential issues that come up

Well, what's the advantage to buying only mp3's, when you can purchase the cd and make your own mp3's?? Sure, you get the mp3's instantaneously, but why not do a joint service? mp3's AND the cd? Or, if you purchase the mp3's, you can buy the cd at a drastically discounted rate. Personally, it seems sort of stupid to buy/download mp3's only to then burn them on to a CD either as a backup, mp3 copy, and especially ironic to then burn an audio cd from them :) Especially if the mp3's cost the same as the cd... And what I find even more interesting is that most "idm" does its best when its looked at from a "whole album" point of view. There really aren't any hits in idm, at least not enough to warrant looking at artists on a song by song basis. So you wouldn't even buy individual mp3's, but rather an entire album, which gets us back to where we started :) derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines And what I find even more interesting is that most "idm" does its best when

> And what I find even more interesting is that most "idm" does its best when > its looked at from a "whole album" point of view. There really aren't any > hits in idm, at least not enough to warrant looking at artists on a song by > song basis. So you wouldn't even buy individual mp3's, but rather an > entire album, which gets us back to where we started :)

Actually IDM _would_ have 'hits' if DJs played it (more often): radio, clubs or elsewhere... IDM doesn't have singles and hits by and large because everybody just buys albums altogether. The nature of music is in indiv. songs. How many compilations are out there again? I think looking at artists on a song by song basis is the way to go, except in a live context, where the art of showmanship makes it more engaging (+ pragmatic). If I'm listening to recordings I'd just as well hear only the ones that 'stick' with me rather than sit through 5-6 so-so tracks in between. Anybody who has an MP3 player of their own knows this. Given the option, five nines of the human pop would always listen to individual tunes as opposed to albums, because there are remarkably few records that really hold up to extended review track after track. On the other hand, I find that the more I listen to an 'album' of music, the more I find certain songs more difficult to listen to than they would be in an isolated context, simply because they don't compare as well to the 'standouts'. Selling MP3s is a ridiculous concept unless each customer has an individual crypto key to open and hear the tracks they buy. This being inconceivable w/in the current market structure, I still think the OG business model of making money on ticket sales, merch and the occasional hardcopy is the way to go. More tangents for everybody, Tom --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

At 10:43 PM 7/15/2002 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 16 lines And what I find even more interesting is that most "idm" does its best when

> > And what I find even more interesting is that most "idm" does its best when > > its looked at from a "whole album" point of view. There really aren't any > > hits in idm, at least not enough to warrant looking at artists on a song by > > song basis. So you wouldn't even buy individual mp3's, but rather an > > entire album, which gets us back to where we started :) > >Actually IDM _would_ have 'hits' if DJs played it (more often): radio, clubs >or elsewhere... IDM doesn't have singles and hits by and large because >everybody just buys albums altogether. The nature of music is in indiv. >songs. How many compilations are out there again? > >I think looking at artists on a song by song basis is the way to go, except >in a live context, where the art of showmanship makes it more engaging (+ >pragmatic). If I'm listening to recordings I'd just as well hear only the >ones that 'stick' with me rather than sit through 5-6 so-so tracks in >between.

Ah, this point is where you and I differ. I don't *like* buying albums where there are even 2 or 3 so-so songs. That's why my cd collection is easy to store and organize (it's only around 300ish instead of 3000ish); I'm just more picky about what I buy. I really hate buying a CD where I'm forced to skip half the songs because they're boring, dull, or annoying, and why would I want to support an artist that only makes music I like 1/4th of the time? :D Arguably, the reason you support an artist is because you want to both thank them for their current work and support their future releases. If they're not making music you enjoy, what's the point? But, like I said, I'm probably pickier than you about it and haven't been purchasing as much IDM because there's been more filler albums lately. I've always been against artists releasing "hits," even back when I listened to more popular music, and I'd hate to see idm go the path of the "killer track with filler." derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

->Actually IDM _would_ have 'hits' if DJs played it (more often): radio, -clubs ->or elsewhere... [Adesh say's] Are you kidding, IDM what have hits if people actually went out to hear djs play idm and then not go home and bitch about how much better an experience it would have been at home via their headphones. The reason you don't hear idm in clubs is because not very many people can get into it in a club setting and the people that do like it would rather be at home. There are plenty of IDM hits, Keynell for instance is a perfect example. Adesh http://www.recordcamp.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 5 lines Well, what's the advantage to buying only mp3's, when you can purchase the

> Well, what's the advantage to buying only mp3's, when you can purchase the > cd and make your own mp3's?? > > Sure, you get the mp3's instantaneously, but why not do a joint > service? mp3's AND the cd? Or, if you purchase the mp3's, you can buy

the

quoted 1 line cd at a drastically discounted rate.

> cd at a drastically discounted rate.

What i was thinking that there is no CD. Its just released on mp3. The media itself costs something, mailing it and printing labels costs something - just eliminate it. Alot of people just download mp3s and burn them as it is, and never listen to CDs. This would just be streamling the process. Also couple that will a reduced cost to download the mp3s as opposed to buying the CD - AND the whole operation would be artist owned, so the money's going right to them.

quoted 1 line Personally, it seems sort of stupid to buy/download mp3's only to then

> Personally, it seems sort of stupid to buy/download mp3's only to then

burn

quoted 1 line them on to a CD either as a backup, mp3 copy, and especially ironic to

> them on to a CD either as a backup, mp3 copy, and especially ironic to

then

quoted 1 line burn an audio cd from them :) Especially if the mp3's cost the same as

> burn an audio cd from them :) Especially if the mp3's cost the same as

the

quoted 1 line cd...

> cd...

Right...i think you could avoid the burning them onto the CD phase too, unless you're looking for a backup. Of course with any cd...there's a chance its going to be damaged....

quoted 1 line And what I find even more interesting is that most "idm" does its best

> And what I find even more interesting is that most "idm" does its best

when

quoted 2 lines its looked at from a "whole album" point of view. There really aren't any

> its looked at from a "whole album" point of view. There really aren't any > hits in idm, at least not enough to warrant looking at artists on a song

by

quoted 2 lines song basis. So you wouldn't even buy individual mp3's, but rather an

> song basis. So you wouldn't even buy individual mp3's, but rather an > entire album, which gets us back to where we started :)

That might be true...its hard to say. I know i don't often listen to whole albums, but i think i listen to whole "idm" albums more than other genres. But that's not to say you couldn't download a whole album. Also...that arguement is a matter of taste. There's got to be other people who could do without some album songs... I'm not even trying to be a booster for this idea, i'm just trying to work out what people would see as the problems. - cutups --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 1 line Selling MP3s is a ridiculous concept unless each customer has an

> Selling MP3s is a ridiculous concept unless each customer has an

individual

quoted 4 lines crypto key to open and hear the tracks they buy. This being inconceivable

> crypto key to open and hear the tracks they buy. This being inconceivable > w/in the current market structure, I still think the OG business model of > making money on ticket sales, merch and the occasional hardcopy is the way > to go.

I agree on the technology part of it...you'd have to do something else to encourage people to actually pay for it. Limiting how you can replay it is too hard to deal with. Like you mention merch...possibly giving away "free" merch (tshirts etc) to subscribers over the long haul.... However - I guess what i'm getting at is - is it more ridiculous than selling cds, where you have to actually make something, when some percent (i don't know how high), just rip the cd and listen to it on their computer. Or never buy it and just listen to it on their computer. Perhaps giving some $'s to the artist this way would make more sense to people who normally just download stuff for free, or think too little money goes to the artists from normal cd sales... - cutups --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Sup Cutups! Glad to see SOMEONE is trying to still have some dialogue around here... Personally, I'm not that in favor of the idea. See, I really like THINGS. I like to hold them, look at them, make them. I think that the idea of a MP3 subscription works very well with the idea of the internet/information as a utility (ie: like water, heat, elect.) And I like the idea that an artist could get paid for exactly how much usage they would get, but there's something a bit off about the non-material nature of this proess. Does this process alreday exist? -yes. Do many people burn MP3's almost exclusively? -Yes. I just don't prefer it... But we all need more t-shirts!!! So get crackin'on those Wrecked designs ASAP! Donna S.

quoted 24 lines I agree on the technology part of it...you'd have to do something

>I agree on the technology part of it...you'd have to do something >else to encourage people to actually pay for it. Limiting how you can >replay it is too hard to deal with. Like you mention merch...possibly >giving >away "free" merch (tshirts etc) to subscribers over the long haul.... > >However - I guess what i'm getting at is - is it more ridiculous than >selling cds, >where you have to actually make something, when some percent >(i don't know how high), just rip the cd and listen to it on their >computer. >Or never buy it and just listen to it on their computer. > >Perhaps giving some $'s to the artist this way would make more sense >to people who normally just download stuff for free, or think too little >money goes to the artists from normal cd sales... > >- cutups > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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The biggest problem with selling mp3 is that you have to pay a huge fee to the MPEG Group, while if you sell ogg vorbis files you keep all the money. By the way if you sell your own cd's you're also supposed to pay royalties to the company that holds the cd patents. The ogg vorbis format is the only royalty free digital format. Even cd's aren't royalty free, and if you sell enough independently this nasty company called "Discovision" will sue you, all they do is defend the pantents on cds and sue artists and record companies. What I'm trying is signing up for BMI and releasing my mp3s on Vitaminic, since they pay per playback to BMI or ASCAP members, so everyone can download for free and I can still collect composer's fees. On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, donna summer wrote:

quoted 62 lines Sup Cutups!

> Sup Cutups! > Glad to see SOMEONE is trying to still have some dialogue around here... > > Personally, I'm not that in favor of the idea. See, I really like THINGS. I > like to hold them, look at them, make them. I think that the idea of a MP3 > subscription works very well with the idea of the internet/information as a > utility (ie: like water, heat, elect.) And I like the idea that an artist > could get paid for exactly how much usage they would get, but there's > something a bit off about the non-material nature of this proess. Does this > process alreday exist? -yes. Do many people burn MP3's almost exclusively? > -Yes. > > I just don't prefer it... > > But we all need more t-shirts!!! So get crackin'on those Wrecked designs > ASAP! > > Donna S. > > > > > > > >I agree on the technology part of it...you'd have to do something > >else to encourage people to actually pay for it. Limiting how you can > >replay it is too hard to deal with. Like you mention merch...possibly > >giving > >away "free" merch (tshirts etc) to subscribers over the long haul.... > > > >However - I guess what i'm getting at is - is it more ridiculous than > >selling cds, > >where you have to actually make something, when some percent > >(i don't know how high), just rip the cd and listen to it on their > >computer. > >Or never buy it and just listen to it on their computer. > > > >Perhaps giving some $'s to the artist this way would make more sense > >to people who normally just download stuff for free, or think too little > >money goes to the artists from normal cd sales... > > > >- cutups > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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quoted 1 line Personally, I'm not that in favor of the idea. See, I really like THINGS.

> Personally, I'm not that in favor of the idea. See, I really like THINGS.

I

quoted 1 line like to hold them, look at them, make them. I think that the idea of a

> like to hold them, look at them, make them. I think that the idea of a

MP3

quoted 1 line subscription works very well with the idea of the internet/information as

> subscription works very well with the idea of the internet/information as

a

quoted 3 lines utility (ie: like water, heat, elect.) And I like the idea that an artist

> utility (ie: like water, heat, elect.) And I like the idea that an artist > could get paid for exactly how much usage they would get, but there's > something a bit off about the non-material nature of this proess. Does

this

quoted 2 lines process alreday exist? -yes. Do many people burn MP3's almost exclusively?

> process alreday exist? -yes. Do many people burn MP3's almost exclusively? > -Yes.

I agree with your opinion. Personally, i like the material nature of buying music. I buy pretty much 100% vinyl because i love it. Not because i think it sounds better, and not always because of the art (although sometimes), but because i like the objects, the art, the textures, the media, the sound....the whole package. BUT....one comment made me think of this - i have friends trying to put out records and saving money to do so. They can't, off the bat, afford to put out records. So amoungst another discussion it came up that why doesn't he just skip the media, because people want to just listen to the mp3s in the end. Admittedly, this came up amoungst a few dorks who don't buy vinyl, and buy cds mostly to rip them and listen on their computer/stereo rigs.

quoted 5 lines I just don't prefer it...

> > I just don't prefer it... > > But we all need more t-shirts!!! So get crackin'on those Wrecked designs > ASAP!

i've got some but i don't know if there's interest :P maybe after the site is revamped totally. i'm also looking at doing some vinyl....lots of projects - cutups --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

quoted 3 lines i've got some but i don't know if there's interest :P

>i've got some but i don't know if there's interest :P >maybe after the site is revamped totally. i'm also looking at doing >some vinyl....lots of projects

Woo Wooo! We need more crazy fucked up 200bpm stuff on vinyl! We need more T-Shirts! Woo Woo! DS _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org