IDM Mailing Archive

Andy Don't unsubscribe. "Life" is a rollercoaster ride of emotions, love and loss. What can/should unite us ALL is our love of IDM and the arts. Even if there is dissenting opinions voiced on this list, it is only a sign of people voicing their concerns from what "they believe." We ALL believe IDM is wonderful. So, lets take it from there. Peace --- Andrea Bardelli Danieli <abardelli@freesurf.ch> wrote:

quoted 113 lines I thought I would refrain from commenting on what

> > I thought I would refrain from commenting on what > happened on my loved idm > list music list, but people have gone too far for me > not to react, sorry. > > As Brian said, more than 50% seems to be from the US > here, so there is much > concern. Think we haven't noticed this, in the past? > Of course this list is > mostly made of people in the US. I remember comments > about "we invented the > internet", and "let's bomb the fuckers" in the past, > with all the nineties > wars that made many a civilian victim. > > Before you start flinging rude nationalistic > comments at me, or consider > unsbscribing me from the list, think about what Rob > Salit just noted: > > >I just wanted to make a point that this tragedy > doesn't only affect us here > >in the US. When an attack like this occurs, all of > the countries that > >support us in NATO are involved. And it is also a > point to say that if it > >can happen here, it can happen anywhere, anytime. > The last place that I'd > >want to be right now is in any country that could > be related to the attacks. > >We're gonna launch some serious action. This is > far from over. > > We in Europe have always had to live with the > consequences of the > aggressive US policies in the world. This time, it > hit America first, but > as the planes will inevitably take off from europe > to bomb the middle east, > we will take most of the aggro, as usual (tension in > airports and city > centres, military surveillance heightened in > sensitive areas, etc., and > what is more, a clear and very very likely threat of > military retaliation > from the middle east, because the US are far, but > europe is nice and nearer > to bomb and attack). I am Italian, our country is > right in the middle of > the Mediterranean (I know this doesn't mean a lot to > people in the US, look > it up in a map, and you'll understand) and Italy is > FULL of American and > NATO bases. This is where planes take off when they > go bombing Iraq, Serbia > etc. This is where many nuclear bombs from the > former eastern countries > were pointed at. And it has already happened in the > past that we were > attacked from our geographic neighbours (Libya, for > instance). What's more, > Italy has a horrendous history of civilian tragedies > of which the US were > directly responsible of: civilian planes being shot > down "by mistake" while > trying to shoot down libyan planes at night (1980), > people being killed by > US planes that were "playing" in alpine valleys > (1999), bombs on trains, in > squares, banks etc., for which justice courts found > out the CIA to be > partly responsible, etc etc. > And we are ALLIES. What a fucking laugh. Now we > should also put up with > Bush, it seems. You gotta be kidding. > > Believe me, these days are tragic ones for us all, > the consequences of what > happened will be borne by all of us, but the > europeans will take much of > the aggro though. As usual. > > Well this time I am writing because what I least > want on my beloved music > list is the nationalistic reactions I have seen. > They are totally out of > place, and they can only irritate people in Europe, > who have borne MOST of > the tragedies in the western world (but not as much > as the 3rd world...). A > point of view like Mr.Hackett's isn't even > considered on the list, it just > gets "bombed" like American reactionaries like to > bomb anything that moves > and doesn't say "I love the US". Think twice before > you shoot, it's us you > are shooting. > > Now you can unsubscribe me Mr Rachielles, I actually > felt like > unsubscribing myself even before (during the Serbian > war, for instance), > but I have always resisted. Since this > WTC/NYC/Pentagon thing is just the > start of a major military and political crisis, I > hate to think what this > list will become. > > Sorry, > > Andy >

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Although I'm an American, I have also simply sat and watched what everyone has been saying until now. Andy's frustration is perfectly justified, and I think the people of the US who wish to blow up the Middle East should consider who started this modern state of perpetual war. Any clues? US. Although we are uncertain as to precicely who did this and for what reason, most people are already pointing to the Middle East, so that is where I shall begin. As historically famous hypocrites, it was no shock that after fighting to prevent the Nazi's from taking the lives of Jews in Europe, we turned the shiploads of Jewish refugees away when they reached our shores... imagine that: sitting on a cold, steel ship for weeks only to be TURNED BACK by the people who were supposed to be fighting for your freedom. Anyway, the absurd idea of involving the world in a very delicate theological matter was ours [by this, I mean proposing AND passing the UN Partition Plan, which simply kicked out of Palestine the Palestinies who, like so many others before and after, rightfully FOUGHT for their land]. And if you need other examples of times since then when we haven't given a shit about very similar problems in other parts of the world, feel free to ask. And to complicate matters even more, after kicking the Palestinies out of their land and dumping the refugee Jews in it, we then, following the Oslo Accord and Cold War, CONTINUED to interfere, this time on a more geoeconomic level. If we, as Americans, simply allowed the Jews to enter our land when they came over after WWII, or if we just stopped financing Israel's fight with Palestine and promoted a cooperative economy in the Middle East, things would be in a much better state right now. All of these talks that our Presidents have been heading are pointless. How can we talk about peace when we have a very large amount of money funneling into Israel? As we watched the twin towers crumble while standing in the middle of 5th Ave yesterday, I heard many many rude, racist comments about Muslims and Arabs. And while I was shocked at first, I soon realized that it MUST be this way. OF COURSE. WE are the United States. WE can do whatever we wish. It's really frightening and disgusting, but it also seems to be true. While I don't feel that anyone could ever be justified in doing what was done yesterday, if we are going to consider the attack as coming from the Middle East, as so many have already done, just consider how you would feel if the ENTIRE developed world tied your arms behind your back and repeatedly punched you in the stomach. 50 years from when it all began, with no sign of any success in regaining what was taken from you, wouldn't you be pretty upset? What do you think you'd do? Of course you'd try to talk. They have. But the Jewish state of Israel now has too strong a hold on the world and I fear that the Palestinians may never get their land back. Again, I think this attack was senseless and saveage, but before we talk about taking military action against entire peoples, consider how it began... consider who else will be effected [as Andy has stated]. The United States has a very childish attitude. It's always, 'Me, Me, Me.' Best M...

quoted 79 lines From: Andrea Bardelli Danieli <abardelli@freesurf.ch>

>From: Andrea Bardelli Danieli <abardelli@freesurf.ch> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: [idm] American disaster >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:37:06 +0200 > > >I thought I would refrain from commenting on what happened on my loved idm >list music list, but people have gone too far for me not to react, sorry. > >As Brian said, more than 50% seems to be from the US here, so there is much >concern. Think we haven't noticed this, in the past? Of course this list is >mostly made of people in the US. I remember comments about "we invented the >internet", and "let's bomb the fuckers" in the past, with all the nineties >wars that made many a civilian victim. > >Before you start flinging rude nationalistic comments at me, or consider >unsbscribing me from the list, think about what Rob Salit just noted: > >>I just wanted to make a point that this tragedy doesn't only affect us >>here >>in the US. When an attack like this occurs, all of the countries that >>support us in NATO are involved. And it is also a point to say that if it >>can happen here, it can happen anywhere, anytime. The last place that I'd >>want to be right now is in any country that could be related to the >>attacks. >>We're gonna launch some serious action. This is far from over. > >We in Europe have always had to live with the consequences of the >aggressive US policies in the world. This time, it hit America first, but >as the planes will inevitably take off from europe to bomb the middle east, >we will take most of the aggro, as usual (tension in airports and city >centres, military surveillance heightened in sensitive areas, etc., and >what is more, a clear and very very likely threat of military retaliation >from the middle east, because the US are far, but europe is nice and nearer >to bomb and attack). I am Italian, our country is right in the middle of >the Mediterranean (I know this doesn't mean a lot to people in the US, look >it up in a map, and you'll understand) and Italy is FULL of American and >NATO bases. This is where planes take off when they go bombing Iraq, Serbia >etc. This is where many nuclear bombs from the former eastern countries >were pointed at. And it has already happened in the past that we were >attacked from our geographic neighbours (Libya, for instance). What's more, >Italy has a horrendous history of civilian tragedies of which the US were >directly responsible of: civilian planes being shot down "by mistake" while >trying to shoot down libyan planes at night (1980), people being killed by >US planes that were "playing" in alpine valleys (1999), bombs on trains, in >squares, banks etc., for which justice courts found out the CIA to be >partly responsible, etc etc. >And we are ALLIES. What a fucking laugh. Now we should also put up with >Bush, it seems. You gotta be kidding. > >Believe me, these days are tragic ones for us all, the consequences of what >happened will be borne by all of us, but the europeans will take much of >the aggro though. As usual. > >Well this time I am writing because what I least want on my beloved music >list is the nationalistic reactions I have seen. They are totally out of >place, and they can only irritate people in Europe, who have borne MOST of >the tragedies in the western world (but not as much as the 3rd world...). A >point of view like Mr.Hackett's isn't even considered on the list, it just >gets "bombed" like American reactionaries like to bomb anything that moves >and doesn't say "I love the US". Think twice before you shoot, it's us you >are shooting. > >Now you can unsubscribe me Mr Rachielles, I actually felt like >unsubscribing myself even before (during the Serbian war, for instance), >but I have always resisted. Since this WTC/NYC/Pentagon thing is just the >start of a major military and political crisis, I hate to think what this >list will become. > >Sorry, > >Andy > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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abardelli@freesurf.ch wrote:

quoted 3 lines people of the US

>people of the US >who wish to blow up the Middle East should consider who started this modern >state of perpetual war. Any clues? US.

quoted 5 lines we turned the

>> we turned the >shiploads of Jewish refugees away when they reached our shores. >> >>Anyway, the absurd idea of involving the world in a very delicate >theological matter was ours

You don't think there was a Jewish/Palestinian conflict when the British controlled Palestine? You don't think the will of many Jews to create a nation in their historic homeland (in the wake of the holocaust) played any role in the creation of Israel? It seems questionable to suggest that Israel happened because the U.S. (deplorably) turned away refugee ships. I just think that there's a lot of reactionary thinking of one sort or another right now, and it's no more correct to say that all the Arabs are to blame than it is to say that the United States is responsible for all the problems in the Middle East. k --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org