IDM Mailing Archive

<rant> Well I'm sure glad I didn't spend $400 on an MP3 jukebox ! What about that whole aspect of the debate? There are products being sold on the market today for playing MP3's. If CD's are built to disable this then isn't it disabling another sector of the marketplace as well? Are we to assume that the only people creating MP3's are those with 'original content'. Could they fill up 2gigs on a jukebox with it? WTF? What's the point? Personally, although I love the access to such a wide range of music I'm getting really sick of the lack of fidelity in a 128kbps MP3. It does not sound rich. It sounds dull. To me it is just a high-quality preview. If I actually like the album I'll just go out and buy it. </rant> Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul ----- Original Message ----- From: Mxyzptlk To: Howard Shih Cc: idm@hyperreal.org Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [idm] copy protection Well, they're either poorly mastered or copy protected. They won't rip well at all or even track for playing on the cd-rom. Some great stuff on the label, btw. jeff At 02:21 PM 8/14/2001, Howard Shih wrote: >On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote: > > Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the > > Elektrolux label are copy-protected. > >I thought it was only that country guy you've never heard of >until now... Charley Pride that had his cd 'copy-protected'. > >hs

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Static Beats wrote:

quoted 13 lines <rant>

> <rant> > Well I'm sure glad I didn't spend $400 on an MP3 jukebox ! > > What about that whole aspect of the debate? > There are products being sold on the market today for playing MP3's. > If CD's are built to disable this then isn't it disabling another >sector of the marketplace as well? Are we to assume that the only people > creating MP3's are those with 'original content'. Could they fill up > 2gigs on a jukebox with it? > > WTF? > > What's the point?

I definitely agree with this... I forget which Illuminati or powers that be are at the forefront of all this copyrighted CD nonsense, but it is ridiculous that these same powers could also be indirectly behind marketing the same Mp3 playing gadgets that would be rendered moot by the former anyway. On one hand, one argument offered behind copyright CDs is that it curbs the speed at which music is copied more than prevent it altogether. On the other hand, what's the point of trying to retard the inevitable? (CDplayer --> audio out --> audio in --> computer.... no digital watermarking can prevent this method of copying... whatever slight resampling differences occur)

quoted 4 lines Personally, although I love the access to such a wide range of music

> Personally, although I love the access to such a wide range of music >I'm getting really sick of the lack of fidelity in a 128kbps MP3. It does >not sound rich. It sounds dull. To me it is just a high-quality preview. >If I actually like the album I'll just go out and buy it.

Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the main motifs of having a compressed, downloadable music file format? I'm not an RIAA apologist -- but I think it would be naive to think that Mp3s were created for the purpose of digitally archiving music at high quality. (Not to call you one of those naive people, Mista Beats... just speaking rhetorically)

quoted 2 lines </rant>

> > </rant>

======================================================================= Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org> ======================================================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On 08/14/01, Brian MacDonald wrote:

quoted 7 lines Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the main motifs of having a

> > Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the main motifs of having a > compressed, downloadable music file format? I'm not an RIAA apologist -- > but I think it would be naive to think that Mp3s were created for the > purpose of digitally archiving music at high quality. (Not to call you > one of those naive people, Mista Beats... just speaking rhetorically) >

Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist. RIAA apologist. - wells oliver || wells@submute.net "I wouldn't know because I don't read, but I'll tell you one thing for sure: I wouldn't trust no words written down on no piece of paper especially from no Dickinson out in the town of Machine. You're just as likely to find your own grave." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote:

quoted 2 lines Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know

> Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know > you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist.

actually, making MP3s is irrelevant to this argument.. by manufacturing copy-proof CDs, the RIAA is infringing on my right to make as many copies of a CD as i want/need, provided it's only for personal use, and provided i purchased the original. here is the real issue. part of what i pay for when i purchase a CD is a limited license which allows me to do this. the difference is in WHO is breaking this license. the RIAA by ASSUMING we're not going to comply to the license? or those who ACTUALLY DO make/distribute copies? i could be wrong, but i think you actually have to commit a crime before penalties can be put on you for comiting it. copy-proof CDs are essentialy a PREEMPTIVE-PENALTY against consumers. and that, i believe is illegal in and of itself. -j --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

on 08/14/01 4:45 PM, j snod at jordan@actualsize.com wrote:

quoted 26 lines On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote:

> > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote: >> Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know >> you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist. > > actually, making MP3s is irrelevant to this argument.. by > manufacturing copy-proof CDs, the RIAA is infringing on my right to make > as many copies of a CD as i want/need, provided it's only for personal > use, and provided i purchased the original. here is the real issue. part > of what i pay for when i purchase a CD is a limited license which allows > me to do this. > > the difference is in WHO is breaking this license. the RIAA by > ASSUMING we're not going to comply to the license? or those who ACTUALLY > DO make/distribute copies? i could be wrong, but i think you actually > have to commit a crime before penalties can be put on you for comiting > it. copy-proof CDs are essentialy a PREEMPTIVE-PENALTY against consumers. > and that, i believe is illegal in and of itself. > > -j > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

Word to that! We do know of the "guilty until proven innocent". --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, wells wrote:

quoted 4 lines Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know

> Why do you have to lie about it? You know you're an RIAA apologist. I know > you're an RIAA apologist. Everyone knows you're an RIAA apologist. > > RIAA apologist.

Listen, Hetfield, you better get the fuck back into the clinic before the happy people that take care of you and put things in you have to become the unhappy people. ======================================================================= Brian MacDonald <brianm@kuci.org> ======================================================================= --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the Elektrolux label are copy-protected. It seems that this may indeed spread beyond the Snoop Doggy Dog market - or, rather, has. jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote:

quoted 4 lines Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the

> Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the > Elektrolux label are copy-protected. > It seems that this may indeed spread beyond the Snoop Doggy Dog market - > or, rather, has.

I thought it was only that country guy you've never heard of until now... Charley Pride that had his cd 'copy-protected'. hs --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Well, they're either poorly mastered or copy protected. They won't rip well at all or even track for playing on the cd-rom. Some great stuff on the label, btw. jeff At 02:21 PM 8/14/2001, Howard Shih wrote:

quoted 8 lines On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Mxyzptlk wrote: > > Just a bit of thought-fodder. It seems that several of the CDs on the > > Elektrolux label are copy-protected. > >I thought it was only that country guy you've never heard of >until now... Charley Pride that had his cd 'copy-protected'. > >hs

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Well actually my reference to the quality of 128K MP3's was in relation to all these companies trying to fight the battle. It is not cd quality. It does not replace the original. It also does not keep me from buying the CD ! Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm listening to an MP3 rip of Fila Brazillia's - Black Market Gardening. It's in my very high-end car stereo and it just sounds so DULL! It's a great album and having the MP3's *before* I bought it (since you can no longer listen to music before you buy it OR return opened music) means that I can decide whether or not I want the original... Im not referring to the creation of MP3's - I'm referring to the industries view that somehow downloadable MP3's can *replace* traditional media. This rolls in to the DIVX;-) debate as well. Movie houses are now getting *worried* because of all the freely available movies out there.... Do they really think compressed movies are going to replace DVD, VHS, or even the Movive Screen? And now, to top it all off - post Napster - the record companies are all scuttling to be the first to roll out some kind of "subscription" service for downloadable music. Bastards! Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul On 08/14/01, Brian MacDonald wrote: > > Heh. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't this one of the main motifs of having a > compressed, downloadable music file format? I'm not an RIAA apologist -- > but I think it would be naive to think that Mp3s were created for the > purpose of digitally archiving music at high quality. (Not to call you > one of those naive people, Mista Beats... just speaking rhetorically) >

There has been too many replies to this matter for me to sit and read all of them....so I hope Im not off subject here.... I dont think that any ultra compact digital medium is going to replace CD,DVD and all the other new formats coming about anytime too soon. But I do have sympathy for those on the side of wanting to make it very hard for people to duplicate copyrighted material. I also like to burn back ups of cd's and make mixed compilation cd's so I dont have to keep changing the disk when Im driving.... But, when us somewhat honest people can do that 100 more can do it for the purpose of resale and free distribution. Now I could care less about the "big wig" corporate types missing out on a few thousand or even a few million per year....BUT when they take a cut, the artists and entertainers take a cut as well. This is especially hurtful when it takes place in a more "underground" genre like I.D.M., "Industrial", etc. etc....or just the more independent artists. Its nice you think, getting people free music in return for more free music, or whatever the case may be. But that hurts the artists finances, aside from needing all the money we can get to make an honest and comfortable living doing what we love, and what the listeners enjoy as well, the more money that makes its way to the artists can mean better releases, more touring etc. But when criminals like the bastard who ran Napster come along...no thats not a revolution, thats theft. And I think he should have been punished a whole hell-of-a-lot harder than he was. And as far as sampling another persons music..beats whatever....no! thats just stupid in my humble opinion. To make "music" based on another persons creativity and hard work is not music or even art...I dont know what to call it really. I mean if you do it as a remix or a cover with the artists permission thats fine...but people like puff daddy...what a friggin' joke! With the technology of today, any of us could do that. I personally would take someone to the cleaners if I caught them jacking my beats in one "their" songs. xh [sorry if this has been an off topic reply, maybe you could voice your opinion on these matters as well] ===== Kounterakt in constant evolution.http://www.kounterakt.cjb.net ("Industrial",Rock, Experimental, I.D.M., DnB hybrid craziness)Circle Of Anxietyhttp://www.cofanx.cjb.net(should appeal to fans of all sorts of I.D.M.) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

From: Static Beats <static@staticbeats.com>

quoted 1 line It's a great album and having the MP3's *before* I bought it (since you

> It's a great album and having the MP3's *before* I bought it (since you

can no longer listen to music before you buy it OR return opened music) means that I can decide whether or not I want the original... Um. Despite living in Nowheresville when it comes to music, my local record stores (including HMV) will allow me to listen to an album before I buy it (and I don't always make a purchase), and will also accept returns if they are in original condition and accompanied by a receipt. I can't really get worked up about the digital copy protection on CDs - pro gear (eg a studio CD player with an S/PDIF out) will allow one to get around it, and one can always just copy via audio. OK this is not as convenient as ripping an mp3 in one go, but I don't think mp3 sounds all that great anyway. For something very light and portable I'd prefer minidisc.

quoted 1 line Im not referring to the creation of MP3's - I'm referring to the

> Im not referring to the creation of MP3's - I'm referring to the

industries view that somehow downloadable MP3's can *replace* traditional media. It' true that this is largely a cynical exercise by the large record companies to maintain control over as many media as possible, which is a rip-off. There are also levies on blank CDRs which increase the cost to the consumer, but I've not heard of any artists (or even smaller labels) benefitting from this. Anig Browl _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

----- Original Message ----- From: Anig Browl To: IDM List Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [idm] copy protection (rant) From: Static Beats <static@staticbeats.com> > It's a great album and having the MP3's *before* I bought it (since you can no longer listen to music before you buy it OR return opened music) means that I can decide whether or not I want the original... Um. Despite living in Nowheresville when it comes to music, my local record stores (including HMV) will allow me to listen to an album before I buy it (and I don't always make a purchase), and will also accept returns if they are in original condition and accompanied by a receipt. I can't think of ANY mainstream music store (Tower, Sam Goody, Camelot, Virgin etc.) that allows you to do either. All the above mentioned may provide a "listening station" with ten or so mainstream releases but only Virgin (in San Francisco) provides some Electronic Music (albeit still mainstream). All of them have signs posted at the counter that state returns for refund must be unopened and include original receipt. Opened items (if defective) may only be returned for the SAME item and must include original receipt. Lucky for you Anig, wherever you are. Out here in California it ain't so good..... Shimone/Justes http://www.staticbeats.com | Electronic Music For The Mind http://www.shimone.org | Pictures From The Soul

quoted 1 line here in California it ain't so good.....

> here in California it ain't so good.....

I'm shocked that in San Fran the best places to buy IDM (or any other kind of decent electronic music) is only from one of a variety of different "McMusic" outlets. Up north in Seattle and Portland we have several independently owned music stores that allow you to listen to any cd before deciding to purchase. Furthermore the selection at these places is usually top notch, I wouldn't even consider going to Wherehouse, Tower, Sam Goody, etc to buy music. -Chris --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

i havent been in san fran since november, but i know there are definitely shops there where you can listen before you buy, some specialist dj shops in the castro and lower haight and theres even a hidden gem of a 7" store (i'm not revealing the whereabouts of that) where you can hear anything. believe it or not some of the second hand stores (not sure about amoeba) will even play something for you if you think its gotta scratch onnit & yr not sure about forking over $30 for something. At 7:48 pm -0700 15/8/01, Chris West wrote:

quoted 5 lines here in California it ain't so good.....

> > here in California it ain't so good..... > >I'm shocked that in San Fran the best places to buy IDM (or any other kind >of decent electronic music) is only from one of a variety of different >"McMusic" outlets.

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ok ok, busted. been to both. At 11:41 am -0700 16/8/01, i wrote:

quoted 6 lines Is that Rookys (haight/fillmore) or Jack's Record Cellar (Scott/Page)?

>Is that Rookys (haight/fillmore) or Jack's Record Cellar (Scott/Page)? > >Dont be hiding the sources now... bad ninja > >:) >-i

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I was just out in San Francisco in mid July. I went around to Housewares, Clear, Soundworks, BPM, Tweekin and Amoeba over in Berkeley to Primal, Amoeba, Skills JD Workshop. There wasnt any good selection of idm, ambient or electro, jungle or abstract in any of these stores. These places are all about house music. Tweekin had some good detroit releases, but in small quantity. Most the jungle selections were small and all the same, except for Compound (which is moving to the Haight or just moved rather) which is all jungle (great backstocks too.) If you are into house, progressive house, or trance, then these are the stores for you. If you are into abstract or idm or something out of the ordinary, then best of luck. Now, Amoeba was the rule of except for all this though. Amoeba for those who dont know, are really large stores which carry EVERYTHING from country to punk to rap to jungle to house to whatever. 95% of the money I spent on records were at the two amoeba record shops becuase they had a serious selection, even though I couldnt listen to it first. Hell, I knew what I was looking for. Dan Robitaille US record shop list: www.booyaka.com/~robi/2001/stores1.shtml --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Aquarius on Valencia street carries lots of stuff, mostly on cd though. dave On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, dan robitaille wrote:

quoted 31 lines I was just out in San Francisco in mid July. I went around

> I was just out in San Francisco in mid July. I went around > to Housewares, Clear, Soundworks, BPM, Tweekin and Amoeba > over in Berkeley to Primal, Amoeba, Skills JD Workshop. > There wasnt any good selection of idm, ambient or electro, > jungle or abstract in any of these stores. These places are > all about house music. > Tweekin had some good detroit releases, but in small > quantity. Most the jungle selections were small and all the > same, except for Compound (which is moving to the Haight or > just moved rather) which is all jungle (great backstocks > too.) If you are into house, progressive house, or trance, > then these are the stores for you. If you are into abstract > or idm or something out of the ordinary, then best of luck. > Now, Amoeba was the rule of except for all this though. > Amoeba for those who dont know, are really large stores > which carry EVERYTHING from country to punk to rap to jungle > to house to whatever. 95% of the money I spent on records > were at the two amoeba record shops becuase they had a > serious selection, even though I couldnt listen to it first. > Hell, I knew what I was looking for. > > Dan Robitaille > US record shop list: > www.booyaka.com/~robi/2001/stores1.shtml > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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--- dan robitaille <robi@booyaka.com> wrote:

quoted 6 lines I was just out in San Francisco in mid July. I went around

> I was just out in San Francisco in mid July. I went around > to Housewares, Clear, Soundworks, BPM, Tweekin and Amoeba > over in Berkeley to Primal, Amoeba, Skills JD Workshop. > There wasnt any good selection of idm, ambient or electro, > jungle or abstract in any of these stores. These places are > all about house music.

I usually go to the Rasputin on Telegraph and look through their 'avant guarde' section, which has all kinds of idm and minimal techno stuff. ===== check out my station on Live365 - over 8 hours worth of early 90's chill-out, IDM, dub and more at: http://www.live365.com/stations/278479 check out my homepage at: http://www.skack.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org