IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 2 lines The problem with most IDM and electronic music nowadays is that the human

> The problem with most IDM and electronic music nowadays is that the human > feel and sound has been taken out of it. Now that everyone is using

trackers

quoted 1 line and software of the sort, MIDI has been gridded and segmented so

> and software of the sort, MIDI has been gridded and segmented so

everything

quoted 5 lines is programed and sounds like it is right out of a computer. This really

> is programed and sounds like it is right out of a computer. This really > shortens the lengths to which electronic music can be taken. > > Down with software, back with Hardware! > qestseq

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The problem with most IDM and electronic music nowadays is that the human feel and sound has been taken out of it. Now that everyone is using trackers and software of the sort, MIDI has been gridded and segmented so everything is programed and sounds like it is right out of a computer. This really shortens the lengths to which electronic music can be taken. Down with software, back with Hardware! qestseq _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Oh this isn't an ignorant post :) Last night I tried a demo of reaktor for the first time. Cool as hell, but now I understand that since so many people are using the same, fully capable tools, it's no wonder that a lot of stuff sounds similar. 'course music created entirely inside a comptur has years of innovation left, but I agree w.matt. it's a combination of using ALL posible tools that yields great new ideas. a little more hardware in the idm scene wouldn't hurt at all. But then again, I think we need to get away from the notion that it's the noise creating modules that drive the sound of the music - the composition tools have way more influence. 'course there's something incredibly liberating about being able to compose exicting new works from just one box (eg laptop). Personally, with what l'usine and arovane (to name a few) are doing with the mixing and mingling of very acousic sounds in idm seems pretty exciting. It's getting away from such purely artificial music. Listen closely, it's a nice new direction that I hope a few others will pick up on :) -Gil On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Matt ___ wrote:

quoted 19 lines The problem with most IDM and electronic music nowadays is that the human

> The problem with most IDM and electronic music nowadays is that the human > feel and sound has been taken out of it. Now that everyone is using trackers > and software of the sort, MIDI has been gridded and segmented so everything > is programed and sounds like it is right out of a computer. This really > shortens the lengths to which electronic music can be taken. > > Down with software, back with Hardware! > qestseq > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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quoted 2 lines Down with software, back with Hardware!

> >Down with software, back with Hardware!

or even better... Down With MIDI!! :) cheers, \derek ----------- "Extremism is no vice when God's on your side" -Opus the Penguin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

EggyToast <youn0394@umn.edu> wrote: : [ "Matt ___" <qestseq@hotmail.com> wrote: ] : >Down with software, back with Hardware! : : or even better... : : Down With MIDI!! Down with electricity!! Acoustic IDM is the future!!! -Ed --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

"Matt ___" <qestseq@hotmail.com> wrote: : The problem with most IDM and electronic music nowadays is that the human : feel and sound has been taken out of it. Not quite. The problem with most IDM and electronic music nowadays is that many artists no longer are putting "the human feel and sound" back into it. But I don't think you can blame the tools for the laziness of those who use them. Software doesn't make the humanization of music any harder -- it never was easy, and never will be easy, whatever the medium. But the techniques will have to be different. And it might be the case that "humanization" isn't always what's missing when music goes flat. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Let's say that Musician Bob uses the Woodmaker Fractalizer to generate a five- minute musical fractal (whatever that is). Using its intuitive GUI interface, he selected from dozen of parameters and in less than an hour came up with a product that virtually set his ears on fire. Bob hears so much of interest in his new sound-product that he makes it a track on his new "Bob's Throbbing Blobs" CD. Bob's many fans listen to the track, and many of them also find it so interesting that their ears are also ablaze. What's missing from this picture, if anything? I'm sure some folks would say that absolutely nothing is missing -- Bob's fans expect to be taken on a thrilling sonic ride by his CD's, and he delivered. But others might say that something vital is missing. Where's Bob? The most one can say is that Bob "discovered" the track somewhere inside the Woodmaker Fractalizer after an hour of exploring and listening. Perhaps the situation is best described in terms of the sound-product itself. We experience it much as Bob did -- as a discovery. And the discovery is as much ours as his. We gain no insight into Bob's experiences, ideas, or intents, other than his ability to recognize a sound-product that we also find enjoyable. Bob didn't interpret the musical fractal, or adorn it, or do anything to share his experience of it. Not a drop of his "humanity" is there. Frankly, I have no problem with this situation. My excitement and interest in a piece of music depend as much on my own humanity as that of the musicians (and sometimes programmers) who create the music. Though I'd find a steady diet of such work to be dry and lifeless, I'd be bored by a steady diet of any one musical form. Variety isn't just the spice of life, it is its meat. -Ed -Ed --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

You're describing two concepts that Brian Eno has written about: 1. Technology makes technique less important, and the act of selection from 'found' alternatives becomes more important. 2. Eno has an idea of a black box with knobs on that continuously generates music, that the listener tweaks until it makes the music he or she wants to hear. There's nothing wrong with this sort of generative music. It doesn't replace human virtuosity; it's a different category On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Ed Hall wrote:

quoted 15 lines Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Let's say

> > Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Let's say > that Musician Bob uses the Woodmaker Fractalizer to generate a five- > minute musical fractal (whatever that is). Using its intuitive GUI > interface, he selected from dozen of parameters and in less than an > hour came up with a product that virtually set his ears on fire. > > What's missing from this picture, if anything? I'm sure some folks > would say that absolutely nothing is missing -- Bob's fans expect to > be taken on a thrilling sonic ride by his CD's, and he delivered. > But others might say that something vital is missing. Where's Bob? > The most one can say is that Bob "discovered" the track somewhere > inside the Woodmaker Fractalizer after an hour of exploring and > listening. >

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There a principle known as "Orientalization" in art: when an exciting new technique or style is developed (or in some cases, discovered), neophytes have trouble distinguishing the new technique from the creative process. The term "Orientalization" comes from the early days of transcontinental commerce between Europe and Asia, when people would buy artwork from the Orient simply on the grounds that it came from the Orient rather than on the grounds that it was good art. This principle holds true today. For example: "The Mind's Eye" video (circa 1987?) featuring tacky animated tableaus of 3d computer-generated models "coming to life" before your eyes to the gut-wrenchingly saccharine synth-puke of Jan Hammer. Absolutely 100% style and no substance. People bought this like mad because it was the first time many of them could see "space age" computer techniques used in a "work of art." Granted my views on this are tainted by the fancy CG techniques used in more contemporary movies like "The Phantom Menace," but the principle holds true with that film as well. The focus of both "The Mind's Eye" and scenes like the underwater journey in "The Phantom Menace" is primarily the technology behind the creation of the work rather than any narrative concept. In 10 years, the graphics used in "The Phantom Menace" will look as tacky and dated as those used in "The Mind's Eye" and the movie will still suffer from the lack of a coherent plot. The same concept holds true in modern contemporary electronic music. A significant portion of the DSP/Glitch/Generative music created these days showcases the output of the software rather than the vision of the musician. Granted, in many cases the vision of the musician IS the output of the software because the process is so new that it is difficult to see past the novelty of the sound. The use of new technology doesn't neccessarily detract from the artistic merit of the work created with such technology. Especially after the novelty wears off, artists find ways to utilize new media to advance their art rather than using it as the focus of their art. -- String Theory : Digital Music for Humans http://www.enteract.com/~yoshi/index.cgi On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Kent williams wrote:

quoted 34 lines You're describing two concepts that Brian Eno has written about:

> You're describing two concepts that Brian Eno has written about: > > 1. Technology makes technique less important, and the act of selection > from 'found' alternatives becomes more important. > 2. Eno has an idea of a black box with knobs on that continuously generates > music, that the listener tweaks until it makes the music he or she > wants to hear. > > There's nothing wrong with this sort of generative music. It doesn't replace > human virtuosity; it's a different category > > On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Ed Hall wrote: > > > > Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Let's say > > that Musician Bob uses the Woodmaker Fractalizer to generate a five- > > minute musical fractal (whatever that is). Using its intuitive GUI > > interface, he selected from dozen of parameters and in less than an > > hour came up with a product that virtually set his ears on fire. > > > > What's missing from this picture, if anything? I'm sure some folks > > would say that absolutely nothing is missing -- Bob's fans expect to > > be taken on a thrilling sonic ride by his CD's, and he delivered. > > But others might say that something vital is missing. Where's Bob? > > The most one can say is that Bob "discovered" the track somewhere > > inside the Woodmaker Fractalizer after an hour of exploring and > > listening. > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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quoted 5 lines : or even better...

> : or even better... > : > : Down With MIDI!! > > Down with electricity!!

Down with earth!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

iM in the process of building a water and wind based sample filter/controller...if anybody has any info on building wind instruments iD luv ta hear from ya! centripdLL "in fact the old school flavor has survived" j-5 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

I think the next innovation in hardware will come in the form of alternate controlers...hardware sequencers and the like. This is kind of already happening with all the midi controler fader/knob boxes the doepfer sequencers etc. Most of the gear in a studio (a digital one any way) is just computers that have a different identity and a specific function. You know, a sampler is a computer that thinks it's a sampler and has a specific OS etc for that function. same for a nordmodular or a synth module. and look at the way hard disk recorders are going...the mackie hdr24/96 is just a stand alone computer that does one thing... ----------

quoted 5 lines From: Catfish Gil <gyaker@fragment.com>

>From: Catfish Gil <gyaker@fragment.com> >To: IDM list <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: Re: [idm] IDM now >Date: Sat, Sep 9, 2000, 9:02 AM >

quoted 53 lines Oh this isn't an ignorant post :)

> Oh this isn't an ignorant post :) > > Last night I tried a demo of reaktor for the first time. Cool as hell, but > now I understand that since so many people are using the same, fully > capable tools, it's no wonder that a lot of stuff sounds similar. > > 'course music created entirely inside a comptur has years of innovation > left, but I agree w.matt. it's a combination of using ALL posible tools > that yields great new ideas. a little more hardware in the idm scene > wouldn't hurt at all. But then again, I think we need to get away from the > notion that it's the noise creating modules that drive the sound of the > music - the composition tools have way more influence. 'course there's > something incredibly liberating about being able to compose exicting new > works from just one box (eg laptop). > > Personally, with what l'usine and arovane (to name a few) are doing with > the mixing and mingling of very acousic sounds in idm seems pretty > exciting. It's getting away from such purely artificial music. Listen > closely, it's a nice new direction that I hope a few others will pick up > on :) > > -Gil > > > On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Matt ___ wrote: > >> The problem with most IDM and electronic music nowadays is that the human >> feel and sound has been taken out of it. Now that everyone is using trackers >> and software of the sort, MIDI has been gridded and segmented so everything >> is programed and sounds like it is right out of a computer. This really >> shortens the lengths to which electronic music can be taken. >> >> Down with software, back with Hardware! >> qestseq >> _________________________________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. >> >> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >> http://profiles.msn.com. >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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From: Catfish Gil <gyaker@fragment.com>

quoted 4 lines Last night I tried a demo of reaktor for the first time. Cool as hell, but

> Last night I tried a demo of reaktor for the first time. Cool as hell, but > now I understand that since so many people are using the same, fully > capable tools, it's no wonder that a lot of stuff sounds similar. >

u think that with reaktor if u really want to build your modules or synth and pass it throught plugins u will sound like the musician next door ?? That's just that people hearing things want to make things sound the same because they use preset and don't want to spend hours ,days ,months ,years to learn synthesis or just to be creative.. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

why u care about how musicians make their music ?? are you that type of guy who watch a dj at a party ?? u think that only with a "fractal" ,image software u can build an entire track with complex rythm and ambiance ?? oh oh..do the same so..use it !!! and send me the track ,he he ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Hall <edhall@screech.weirdnoise.com> To: Ill-tempered Deity Materializes <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 10:01 PM Subject: Re: [idm] IDM now

quoted 2 lines "Matt ___" <qestseq@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "Matt ___" <qestseq@hotmail.com> wrote: > : The problem with most IDM and electronic music nowadays is that the

human

quoted 58 lines : feel and sound has been taken out of it.

> : feel and sound has been taken out of it. > > Not quite. The problem with most IDM and electronic music nowadays > is that many artists no longer are putting "the human feel and sound" > back into it. But I don't think you can blame the tools for the > laziness of those who use them. > > Software doesn't make the humanization of music any harder -- it > never was easy, and never will be easy, whatever the medium. But the > techniques will have to be different. And it might be the case that > "humanization" isn't always what's missing when music goes flat. > > Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Let's say > that Musician Bob uses the Woodmaker Fractalizer to generate a five- > minute musical fractal (whatever that is). Using its intuitive GUI > interface, he selected from dozen of parameters and in less than an > hour came up with a product that virtually set his ears on fire. > > Bob hears so much of interest in his new sound-product that he makes > it a track on his new "Bob's Throbbing Blobs" CD. Bob's many fans > listen to the track, and many of them also find it so interesting > that their ears are also ablaze. > > What's missing from this picture, if anything? I'm sure some folks > would say that absolutely nothing is missing -- Bob's fans expect to > be taken on a thrilling sonic ride by his CD's, and he delivered. > But others might say that something vital is missing. Where's Bob? > The most one can say is that Bob "discovered" the track somewhere > inside the Woodmaker Fractalizer after an hour of exploring and > listening. > > Perhaps the situation is best described in terms of the sound-product > itself. We experience it much as Bob did -- as a discovery. And > the discovery is as much ours as his. We gain no insight into Bob's > experiences, ideas, or intents, other than his ability to recognize a > sound-product that we also find enjoyable. Bob didn't interpret the > musical fractal, or adorn it, or do anything to share his experience > of it. Not a drop of his "humanity" is there. > > Frankly, I have no problem with this situation. My excitement and > interest in a piece of music depend as much on my own humanity as > that of the musicians (and sometimes programmers) who create the music. > Though I'd find a steady diet of such work to be dry and lifeless, I'd > be bored by a steady diet of any one musical form. Variety isn't just > the spice of life, it is its meat. > > -Ed > > > -Ed > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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At 10:13 PM 9/9/00 +0200, you wrote:

quoted 5 lines why u care about how musicians make their music ??

>why u care about how musicians make their music ?? >are you that type of guy who watch a dj at a party ?? >u think that only with a "fractal" ,image software u can build an entire >track with complex rythm and ambiance ?? >oh oh..do the same so..use it !!! and send me the track ,he he

maybe he's a normal person and after thinking to himself "wow, i like that", he thinks "i wonder how they did that!". most people watch dj's because they want to know what they're listening to. besides, it'd be pretty boring if a review of a dj set went "he played some records that i couldn't identify, and did some cool mixes!" besides, imiation is the highest compliment. it's only the critics that don't like it. cheers, \derek ----------- "Extremism is no vice when God's on your side" -Opus the Penguin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

oops. that's what i get for not watching who i reply to.

here i go again.. sorry folks. a little too "send happy"

if someone like enough a dj to go to a party to hear him..so must he knows his style of music and run the shop to hear what is released.. i SOMETIMES go ask a dj what record he is playing , not the whole night !! isn't a party for partying ?? ----- Original Message ----- From: EggyToast <youn0394@umn.edu> To: <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [idm] IDM now

quoted 11 lines At 10:13 PM 9/9/00 +0200, you wrote:

> At 10:13 PM 9/9/00 +0200, you wrote: > >why u care about how musicians make their music ?? > >are you that type of guy who watch a dj at a party ?? > >u think that only with a "fractal" ,image software u can build an entire > >track with complex rythm and ambiance ?? > >oh oh..do the same so..use it !!! and send me the track ,he he > > maybe he's a normal person and after thinking to himself "wow, i like > that", he thinks "i wonder how they did that!". > > most people watch dj's because they want to know what they're listening

to.

quoted 2 lines besides, it'd be pretty boring if a review of a dj set went "he played

> > besides, it'd be pretty boring if a review of a dj set went "he played

some

quoted 18 lines records that i couldn't identify, and did some cool mixes!"

> records that i couldn't identify, and did some cool mixes!" > > besides, imiation is the highest compliment. it's only the critics that > don't like it. > > cheers, > \derek > > ----------- > "Extremism is no vice when God's on your side" > -Opus the Penguin > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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honestly i'm more interested in what the DJ's doing and playing than "partying". "party on, bro. rave on." ugh. no thanks. and i don't really dance, but i do hop around when there's some evil hoover bass coming down and i swing my arms in the air like satan just came to visit. this usually happens in appreciation of the DJ that just dropped the evil incarnated onto a record, just to let him know he has my approval. michelle ----- Original Message ----- From: alexis <casse-tete@noos.fr> To: idm > <idm@hyperreal.org> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [idm] IDM now

quoted 19 lines if someone like enough a dj to go to a party to

> if someone like enough a dj to go to a party to > hear him..so must he knows his style of music and > run the shop to hear what is released.. > i SOMETIMES go ask a dj what record he is playing , > not the whole night !! > isn't a party for partying ?? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: EggyToast <youn0394@umn.edu> > To: <idm@hyperreal.org> > Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 10:59 PM > Subject: Re: [idm] IDM now > > > > At 10:13 PM 9/9/00 +0200, you wrote: > > >why u care about how musicians make their music ?? > > >are you that type of guy who watch a dj at a party ?? > > >u think that only with a "fractal" ,image software u can build an

entire

quoted 36 lines track with complex rythm and ambiance ??

> > >track with complex rythm and ambiance ?? > > >oh oh..do the same so..use it !!! and send me the track ,he he > > > > maybe he's a normal person and after thinking to himself "wow, i like > > that", he thinks "i wonder how they did that!". > > > > most people watch dj's because they want to know what they're listening > to. > > > > besides, it'd be pretty boring if a review of a dj set went "he played > some > > records that i couldn't identify, and did some cool mixes!" > > > > besides, imiation is the highest compliment. it's only the critics that > > don't like it. > > > > cheers, > > \derek > > > > ----------- > > "Extremism is no vice when God's on your side" > > -Opus the Penguin > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

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quoted 4 lines Down with software, back with Hardware!

> > Down with software, back with Hardware! > > qestseq > > does this list have an ignorance filter? can we turn it on?

sheesh. . .i just reread this. apologies to all (including the poster) for my reply. it's a childish, useless one-liner that isn't really that helpful to anyone. anyhow, i just CANNOT appreciate this idea of software = bad, hardware = good. neither are good nor bad. they're tools, that's all. rant mode off. again, apologies for the itchy reply button. -jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

down with pants! ----------

quoted 5 lines From: "reim" <reimie@bigfoot.com>

>From: "reim" <reimie@bigfoot.com> >To: "ignorant dance music" <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: Re: [idm] IDM now >Date: Sat, Sep 9, 2000, 10:46 AM >

quoted 14 lines : or even better...

>> : or even better... >> : >> : Down With MIDI!! >> >> Down with electricity!! > > Down with earth!!! > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org > For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >

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http://chooser.mp3.com/cgi-bin/play/play.cgi/AAIAQgbxCADABG5vcm1QBAAAAFKMkAE AUQEAAABDTGe1ObbhIbc.bLrgY2oqsRHcuqE-/raver_pants1.mp3 might need to copy-and-paste this in sections into your browser...funny as hell, though! G-love. http://www.gram.org.uk

quoted 9 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: steve [mailto:saw123@ixpres.com] > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 12:55 AM > To: reim; ignorant dance music > Subject: Re: [idm] IDM now > > > down with pants! >

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ignorance. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

Speaking of software used to create IDM, does anyone know the 2 or 3 most common commercial applications used by artists discussed on this list? Specifically, what kind of software synths are these folks using? Mark _ _ _ Mouse on Mars discussion list: http://www.egroups.com/group/vulvaland --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org

ha! I have absolutly no problem with software. I just love to see people flip out over something really silly; like an ignorant statement "Down with software, back with hardware!" :)

quoted 12 lines From: "ian" <ian@webice.net>

>From: "ian" <ian@webice.net> >Reply-To: <ian@webice.net> >To: <idm@hyperreal.org> >Subject: Re: [idm] IDM now >Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 02:40:43 -0500 > >ignorance. > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >

_________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org