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(idm) U.R. v. Sony again

4 messages · 4 participants · spans 2 days · search this subject
◇ merged from 2 subjects: (idm) copyrights and techno · (idm) u.r. v. sony again
1999-12-12 01:36Sean Cooper (idm) U.R. v. Sony again
1999-12-12 17:27Ernesto Ikerd Re: (idm) U.R. v. Sony again
└─ 1999-12-12 18:01eric hill Re: (idm) U.R. v. Sony again
└─ 1999-12-13 15:36Kent williams (idm) copyrights and techno
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1999-12-12 01:36Sean Cooperafter talking to a musician friend who used to be in a big-label band that, along with the
From:
Sean Cooper
To:
Date:
Sat, 11 Dec 1999 17:36:22 -0800
Subject:
(idm) U.R. v. Sony again
permalink · <3.0.6.32.19991211173622.00b07910@shell7.ba.best.com>
after talking to a musician friend who used to be in a big-label band that, along with their own material, did cover versions of popular songs, it seems that sony probably has a case in what they did with the knights of the jaguar track. apparently, copyright law states that you can't stop someone from recording your track as long as the writing credit reflects the truth and any money made from the recording (figured, i assume, as a percentage of sales) is payed to the original writer or writers. the only stipulation is that the song cannot in any way be changed (this may explain why the sony guy said explicitly in his note to u.r. that they had reproduced the track 'tone by tone' -- i.e., they didn't change anything). the aforementioned friend ran up against this scenario when his band was going to put a version of "brick house" with slightly different vocal parts on a record and were informed the version couldn't be used unless the vocals were the same as in the original. no permission from the writers (in this case, the commodores), however, was necessary -- only credit and cash. fwiw, sc --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
1999-12-12 17:27Ernesto Ikerd> no permission from the writers (in >this case, the commodores), however, was necessary -
From:
Ernesto Ikerd
To:
Sean Cooper , International Damage Machines
Date:
Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:27:54 -0600
Subject:
Re: (idm) U.R. v. Sony again
permalink · <199912121729.LAA02159@cliffy.lmtas.lmco.com>
quoted 2 lines no permission from the writers (in> no permission from the writers (in >this case, the commodores), however, was necessary -- only credit and cash.
Wow, what could possibly be sadder than that! All it takes is money to pimp someone else's work WITHOUT permission, even if the very foundation of what the artist is about is AVOIDING the wholesale pimping of their work. Thats incredible... I guess might is right after all. ernie Ernesto Ikerd, (817) 763-4795 Company Graphics, Dept 17, MZ-1156 Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems Fort Worth, Texas --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
1999-12-12 18:01eric hill>> no permission from the writers (in >>this case, the commodores), however, was necessary
From:
eric hill
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Date:
Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:01:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: (idm) U.R. v. Sony again
Reply to:
Re: (idm) U.R. v. Sony again
permalink · <Pine.BSF.4.21.9912120954340.15520-100000@shell3.ba.best.com>
quoted 7 lines no permission from the writers (in>> no permission from the writers (in >>this case, the commodores), however, was necessary -- only credit and cash. > >Wow, what could possibly be sadder than that! All it takes is money to >pimp someone else's work WITHOUT permission, even if the very foundation >of what the artist is about is AVOIDING the wholesale pimping of their >work. Thats incredible... I guess might is right after all.
i'm inclined to think that this is not absolute, or we'd be hearing many more beatles covers than we do, regardless of michael jackson's position on the matter. eric --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
1999-12-13 15:36Kent williamsI would not comment again unless I felt like there was something significant to discuss, s
From:
Kent williams
To:
eric hill
Cc:
Date:
Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:36:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject:
(idm) copyrights and techno
Reply to:
Re: (idm) U.R. v. Sony again
permalink · <Pine.HPP.3.96.991213091323.4465B-100000@arthur.avalon.net>
I would not comment again unless I felt like there was something significant to discuss, so here goes. The rules about cover versions versus derivative works is based on the concept of a song that goes back at least 100 years. Songs are more definable by a set of unambiguous attributes -- lyrics, melody, chord progression. If someone sang a song, unless they were really terrible singers, the link to the original work of art is unambiguous to a listener. The performance of a song only need conform to a high level template for the song to be a performance of a song. The instrumental arrangement, the tempo, the phrasing of the singer, etc can vary radically. In fact the performance itself is protected by a separate legal instrument than the song. When you talk about a techno track, this template/performance duality breaks down. A techno track's performance, sound design and structuring can be the entire track -- the notes played and basslines may consist of only one or two notes in a repetitive sequence, too small a fragment to qualify as unique work of art in isolation. In fact, what happens to the definition of a song as a protectable entity when a track is comprised entirely of sequenced percussion sounds? No melody, no chord progression, no lyrics. Where did the song go? A prime example of this would be Richie Hawtin's "Spastic" which is basically a drum tatoo. And not a unique drum pattern either -- the Spastik tatoo is used in a traditonal african drum piece of which I have a recording. I doubt that Richie bit the african originators for it either. It's a snare pattern that anyone with a working knowledge of a 909 could replicate in under a minute. Yet "Spastik" is definably unique, if only in the performance. And I suspect that Spastik is in fact a piece that was performed live to tape. So we're faced with a situation that copyright control isn't entirely prepared for -- where the unique performance of a piece completely subsumes the actual authorship of a song that can be presented in different contexts. There is, effectively, no song there. Rolando's piece does have a chord progression and melody of sorts, so Sony could argue that they've made a cover version of the song. At the same time UR could argue that Rolando's unique performance of the piece is so much more important than the harmonic template, that any reconstruction would have to be a derivative work, requiring permission from the originators. Furthermore, there is a strong argument that the new version damages the market for the original, and reflects negatively on the composer by presenting an inferior performance of his track. kent williams -- kent@avalon.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org