IDM Mailing Archive

I have to agree with this point of view. I spin a lot or underground, deep, morning house that I feel is just as every bit intelligent as Autechre or B-12. Just depends on how you're listening to it. Derek ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All times being relative; what time does Munich arrive at this train? --Nietzche On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 17:25:25 -0400 Chris Fahey <chrisf@raremedium.com> writes:

quoted 86 lines I've heard lots of very sophisticated dance music that probably would

>I've heard lots of very sophisticated dance music that probably would >= >repel >most of the people on this list, music which rarely makes it out of >the >clubs. I'm talking about house music with divas. In many ways lots of >= >this >IDM stuff is comparatively much more commercial than some of the best, >= >most >interesting underground house.=20 > >Yes, there's a high-profile brand of house which is unoriginal, = >retarded, >and commercial, but just cuz the "House Explosion vol 9" compilation = >CD's >they sell at tower records are bad doesn't mean that there isn't house >= >out >there that would blow your socks off and make Global Goon look like an >amateur tinkerer (not hard). > >Some Basic Channel or Carl Craig crosses into what I'm talking about = >(in >terms of being, at heart, house music), but is that as far towards = >house >this list will venture. Why? > >It's a monstrous error to say that house/techno/disco/dance club music >= >is >somehow less intelligently created or heard than IDM, and I often = >suspect >that the difference boils down to class/race/sexual preference. One = >could >argue pretty convincingly that IDM =3D dance music for straight white >= >middle >class guys who can't dance. There's an entire world of dance music out >= >there >which is both booty shaking and very experimental in nature, but it's >= >almost >never discussed on the IDM list. It's sad - In fact, I have to rely on >= >my >club-DJ friends to even expose me to this stuff.=20 > >Not that I'm not guilty too - in order to become an aficianado of IDM, >= >all >you need is some money and an email account, but to find out about >interesting underground house you have to be pretty hardcore about >your >nightlife habits and probably have to be a professional DJ. If you = >think >about it, IDM is in a way dance music's latest stab at bringing = >underground >electronic dance music out of the exclusive control of professional >DJs = >and >into our homes and offices, whereas underground house is still an = >arcane >knowledge to which access is extremely difficult. IDM fans buy records >= >and >CDs, while house fans go to clubs, listen, and dance. > >Sometimes I think this list needs to be a little more house-broken, so >= >to >speak.=20 > > > >' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - > > c h r i s t =F8 p h e r f =AA h e y > >. _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ > chrisf@raremedium.com >2 1 2 - 6 3 4 - 6 9 5 0 x 2 5 8 > http://www.raremedium.com >- ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - .=20

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On 27 Aug 99, Spiral of Evolution wrote re: Re: (idm) "Only Stupid People Call :

quoted 2 lines I spin a lot or underground, deep, morning house that I feel is

> I spin a lot or underground, deep, morning house that I feel is > just as every bit intelligent as Autechre or B-12.

Was this is typo, or is there such a category as "morning house" ??? Moving, maybe? Recently I find myself drifting more and more towards what might be classified as deep house, especially the more melodic end of the IDM spectrum rather than power drills and washing mashines. I *

On Sat, 18 Sep 1999, Irene McC wrote:

quoted 3 lines Recently I find myself drifting more and more towards what might

> Recently I find myself drifting more and more towards what might > be classified as deep house, especially the more melodic end of > the IDM spectrum rather than power drills and washing mashines.

i think tetsu inoue says in the urbansounds interview something about anyone can make weird, fucked-up sounding music, the harder thing to do is make it accessible. -Alistair White www.ire.org/~al

I've heard lots of very sophisticated dance music that probably would repel most of the people on this list, music which rarely makes it out of the clubs. I'm talking about house music with divas. In many ways lots of this IDM stuff is comparatively much more commercial than some of the best, most interesting underground house. Yes, there's a high-profile brand of house which is unoriginal, retarded, and commercial, but just cuz the "House Explosion vol 9" compilation CD's they sell at tower records are bad doesn't mean that there isn't house out there that would blow your socks off and make Global Goon look like an amateur tinkerer (not hard). Some Basic Channel or Carl Craig crosses into what I'm talking about (in terms of being, at heart, house music), but is that as far towards house this list will venture. Why? It's a monstrous error to say that house/techno/disco/dance club music is somehow less intelligently created or heard than IDM, and I often suspect that the difference boils down to class/race/sexual preference. One could argue pretty convincingly that IDM = dance music for straight white middle class guys who can't dance. There's an entire world of dance music out there which is both booty shaking and very experimental in nature, but it's almost never discussed on the IDM list. It's sad - In fact, I have to rely on my club-DJ friends to even expose me to this stuff. Not that I'm not guilty too - in order to become an aficianado of IDM, all you need is some money and an email account, but to find out about interesting underground house you have to be pretty hardcore about your nightlife habits and probably have to be a professional DJ. If you think about it, IDM is in a way dance music's latest stab at bringing underground electronic dance music out of the exclusive control of professional DJs and into our homes and offices, whereas underground house is still an arcane knowledge to which access is extremely difficult. IDM fans buy records and CDs, while house fans go to clubs, listen, and dance. Sometimes I think this list needs to be a little more house-broken, so to speak. ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - c h r i s t ø p h e r f ª h e y . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ chrisf@raremedium.com 2 1 2 - 6 3 4 - 6 9 5 0 x 2 5 8 http://www.raremedium.com - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - .

little miss trinitron wrote:

quoted 5 lines certainly, house music is generally closer in style to the original wave of

> certainly, house music is generally closer in style to the original wave of > new electronic music, in terms of its repetitivity, whereas so much of the > stuff talked about on this list is nothing but prog rock with computers. > > idm /did/ have a groove, once upon a time.

I often wish newer subscribers would dip around in the archives a bit. If one is willing to look, there is ample evidence that the idea that a track might actually work on the dancefloor didn't automatically disqualify it from discussion here. I used to buy, proportionally, a _lot_ more music recommended on this list, then... -d.w.

quoted 5 lines It's a monstrous error to say that house/techno/disco/dance club music is

> It's a monstrous error to say that house/techno/disco/dance club music is > somehow less intelligently created or heard than IDM, and I often suspect > that the difference boils down to class/race/sexual preference. One could > argue pretty convincingly that IDM = dance music for straight white middle > class guys who can't dance.

this has been debated to death, but -- once & for all: 'intelligent' is a tag created by WARP RECORDS to distinguish a form of techno not based on the dancefloor. eventually the term got so misused that really i wouldn't attempt going further than calling it 'idm' & letting people wonder at what those letters could mean. as much as some people can't understand music outside the dancefloor, i for one cannot understand music _inside_ the dancefloor. i don't care about dancing, i think it looks silly, & it's definitely not part of my culture. dancefloor music isn't made for the _head_, it's made for the _booty_. i don't care how easy or hard it is to create a track that goes boom boom till your legs bleed, the only people who're going to wonder how intelligently the track was created are fellow musicians & djs. with idm, there's actually a concern on how it affects the 'intellectual sense' so to speak. as for those who see 'intelligent' as derogatory for others: well, yeah. let's shun intelligence. what GOOD is intelligence?!? who cares about intelligence??? let's not be stupid or intelligent, let's be nothing at all! & i'm back to this point: are we going to trash dance music because it makes the body exercise & therefore improves health?! what about sick music?! that's so derogatory!!! let's call the genre police!!!! -- david

david turgeon wrote:

quoted 5 lines as much as some people can't understand music outside the

> as much as some people can't understand music outside the > dancefloor, i > for one cannot understand music _inside_ the dancefloor. i don't care > about dancing, i think it looks silly, & it's definitely not > part of my culture.

Your culture... hmmm... could it be, um straight white middle class male culture? I'm *partly* kidding here, but you were the one who brought up culture as if it were possible to exist in a culture in which dance is not present in some form. To me and to most other humans, dancing and music go together pretty much hand in hand. If you don't want to or like to bust out and dance, that's cool, but I find that music has many ways of appealing to me, only one of which is subjecting it to intellectual analysis. Dancing is an extreme form of another way of appreciating music: with your body. I don't mean to sound like Hugh Hefner or some New Age anti-intellectual freak when I say that, though. I mean that I find it hard to beleive that anyone can appreciate any music fully without allowing some part of their body to participate in the experience as well. Some people sing along, some people dance, some people's blood pressure rises or pulse accelerates. If you only nod your head or tap your toes you are in fact experiencing this too.

quoted 7 lines dancefloor music isn't made for the _head_, it's made for the

> dancefloor music isn't made for the _head_, it's made for the > _booty_. > i don't care how easy or hard it is to create a track that goes boom > boom till your legs bleed, the only people who're going to wonder how > intelligently the track was created are fellow musicians & djs. with > idm, there's actually a concern on how it affects the 'intellectual > sense' so to speak.

Huh? You're saying that IDM fans are more intelligent *listeners* than people who listen to 4/4 house music? Even those IDM fans that aren't DJs or musicians? And what's this "intellectual sense" you're talking about? Is it music theory or is it something else? It seems to me that unless you have some understanding of the structures of music theory and music technology, there is very little empirical "intellectual" content to *any* music. Your argument thus appears to be saying that IDM fans are smart enough and interested enough to find these intellectual elements in their music and house (or whatever, "booty" music) fans are not. IMHO, you are making two mistakes: #1 is assuming that "booty" music contains little intellectually interesting or sophisticated content (we've been through that already), #2 is asserting that IDM contains a lot of such content. Frankly, I find a lot of IDM isn't really all that intelligent at all, usually favoring style over substance. I think in many ways IDM is a *pose*: To listen to the "hardest" music, the most "esoteric" music, the "weirdest" music. For every really interesting, musically inventive, and thought-provoking artist mentioned on this list, there are dozens of other artists also mentioned whose work, although not dance-floor friendly, is nonetheless created with little intellectual labor, contains almost no display of musical skill or knowledge, is derivative of other artists, is shallow and unsophisticated, etc, etc. I'm not saying that this music doesn't appeal to me - some of it is very interesting for reasons beyond the obviously intellectual - for example, it might bring up a memory, contain a political message or, god forbid, have a funky groove. I get the feeling that many IDM fans consider their music superior to others because it "affects the 'intellectual sense'" without specifying what this "intellectual sense" is. You speak of it as if it were some passive but abnormally well developed sensory organ in your body that defys any explanation beyond saying that it is the polar opposite of whatever it is that makes all those other people wiggle their butts like a bunch of morons. If IDM is so intelligent, where are the conversations on this list about song structures, leitmotifs, improvisations, intervals, time signatures, key changes, etc? Where are the discussions about sampling, songwriting/lyrics, collaborations? About arpeggios, sine waves, gamelan music, atonal music, polyrhythms? About IDM's relationships to film, to radio, to our everyday sonic landscapes?These types of "intellectual" topics pop up sometimes, but usually it comes down to which records and which labels are 'cool'. So, please, get off your high horse, IDM. We're not *that* smart. If there's one element that differentiates IDM fandom from booty/house fandom, it's not intelligence, it's just good old-fashioned pretentiousness.

quoted 8 lines as for those who see 'intelligent' as derogatory for others: well,

> as for those who see 'intelligent' as derogatory for others: well, > yeah. let's shun intelligence. what GOOD is intelligence?!? > who cares > about intelligence??? let's not be stupid or intelligent, let's be > nothing at all! > & i'm back to this point: are we going to trash dance music because it > makes the body exercise & therefore improves health?! what about sick > music?! that's so derogatory!!! let's call the genre police!!!!

Say what? -Cf ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - c h r i s t ø p h e r f ª h e y . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ chrisf@raremedium.com 2 1 2 - 6 3 4 - 6 9 5 0 x 2 5 8 http://www.raremedium.com - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - .

you misunderstand me.

quoted 2 lines Your culture... hmmm... could it be, um straight white middle class male

> Your culture... hmmm... could it be, um straight white middle class male > culture?

unfortunately that's where i come from.

quoted 3 lines people dance, some people's blood pressure rises or pulse accelerates. If

> people dance, some people's blood pressure rises or pulse accelerates. If > you only nod your head or tap your toes you are in fact experiencing this > too.

bravo. so i do experience it when i head nod or tap my toes. sometimes i get a chill down my spine. but i hate dancing. is that okay?

quoted 3 lines Huh? You're saying that IDM fans are more intelligent *listeners* than

> Huh? You're saying that IDM fans are more intelligent *listeners* than > people who listen to 4/4 house music? Even those IDM fans that aren't DJs or > musicians?

no. house talks more directly to the part of your body that wants to move. that's always how i understood house. that's exactly what it's for. nobody is going to make a house track that doesn't have a regular rhythm made for dancing. house = dance music. i say that idm talks, at least partly, to the 'intelligent' part of your body. let's admit it's a quick & dirty definition, but that's how it was originally intended, & that's what my point was. idm is a hybrid genre: it owes as much to house, hip-hop & jazz as it does to contemporary, musique concrete, etc. which are definitely destined to an 'intellectual' understanding (i.e. your head gets it, not your guts.)

quoted 7 lines And what's this "intellectual sense" you're talking about? Is it music

> And what's this "intellectual sense" you're talking about? Is it music > theory or is it something else? It seems to me that unless you have some > understanding of the structures of music theory and music technology, there > is very little empirical "intellectual" content to *any* music. Your > argument thus appears to be saying that IDM fans are smart enough and > interested enough to find these intellectual elements in their music and > house (or whatever, "booty" music) fans are not.

please stop putting words in my mouth, especially things i'd never say or think. i'm talking of the 'intellectual sense' as something which makes us (or some of us) want to be intellectually challenged. when i listen to something like the most abstract parts on lp5, or 'ischemic folks', or david kristian's 'cricklewood', or farmers manual, there's no direct emotional appeal. the music appeals to your head, to your imagination, to your intellectual understanding. everybody can experience it, so long as they care to. like i said, some people do & some don't, & there's nothing wrong with either.

quoted 3 lines IMHO, you are making two mistakes: #1 is assuming that "booty" music

> IMHO, you are making two mistakes: #1 is assuming that "booty" music > contains little intellectually interesting or sophisticated content (we've > been through that already),

i didn't say that at all! i said that the only people who are likely to care are fellow dj's & musicians. of course some people (like you, obviously) will care about how intelligent house music, just like there'll be people to care that 'she's so high' has been intelligently created. intelligence in house music means how subtly & efficiently you can create emotions, make a booty move, etc. intelligence in pop means how many people are going to buy your cd. what we've been seeing with music that's experimental, not immediately appealing, is an appeal to the intellect for no reason other than to be appealed. idm is a bit of both. (hence the 'i' & the 'd') it'd be hard to draw the line, but compared to house, idm does care about this 'abstract' quality which doesn't seem to mean much to people like you.

quoted 9 lines #2 is asserting that IDM contains a lot of such

> #2 is asserting that IDM contains a lot of such > content. Frankly, I find a lot of IDM isn't really all that intelligent at > all, usually favoring style over substance. I think in many ways IDM is a > *pose*: To listen to the "hardest" music, the most "esoteric" music, the > "weirdest" music. For every really interesting, musically inventive, and > thought-provoking artist mentioned on this list, there are dozens of other > artists also mentioned whose work, although not dance-floor friendly, is > nonetheless created with little intellectual labor, contains almost no > display of musical skill or knowledge, is derivative of other artists,

oh, & that only happens in idm, right. there's NO bad house. EVER. the fact that you shun it with words like 'hard', 'esoteric', 'weird', means that you don't even appreciate for that sort of musical research. i don't see why you should expect everybody to go for the 'single-minded', 'easy', 'stupid' house.

quoted 6 lines I get the feeling that many IDM fans consider their music superior to others

> I get the feeling that many IDM fans consider their music superior to others > because it "affects the 'intellectual sense'" without specifying what this > "intellectual sense" is. You speak of it as if it were some passive but > abnormally well developed sensory organ in your body that defys any > explanation beyond saying that it is the polar opposite of whatever it is > that makes all those other people wiggle their butts like a bunch of morons.

once again, thanks for putting words in my mouth which i never meant. i consider the 'danceability' of music with much respect; the most subtle minimal house gets my headnodding. for house, it's a personal preference, i don't care about it. but i'm not going to claim that autechre or squarepusher is superior to any other music in the world. (they're not even my favorite bands.)

quoted 7 lines If IDM is so intelligent, where are the conversations on this list about

> If IDM is so intelligent, where are the conversations on this list about > song structures, leitmotifs, improvisations, intervals, time signatures, key > changes, etc? Where are the discussions about sampling, songwriting/lyrics, > collaborations? About arpeggios, sine waves, gamelan music, atonal music, > polyrhythms? About IDM's relationships to film, to radio, to our everyday > sonic landscapes?These types of "intellectual" topics pop up sometimes, but > usually it comes down to which records and which labels are 'cool'.

i've seen more of those discussions on this list than on any list i've been on. i've had a few privately. i've written about it. granted, i don't subscribe to the avant-garde music lists so maybe i'd see even more on that subject on there. but, once again you misread me. 'intellectual', as i shall repeat, doesn't mean you have to talk about it, or even think about it for that matter. idm appeals, at least partly, to the part of you that likes figuring your way out of an abstract painting, or understanding a hermetic philosophical sentence -- i called it 'intellectual sense' for a lack of a better word. i just think that this sort of thing triggers thought. but it isn't tantamount to thinking.

quoted 3 lines So, please, get off your high horse, IDM. We're not *that* smart. If there's

> So, please, get off your high horse, IDM. We're not *that* smart. If there's > one element that differentiates IDM fandom from booty/house fandom, it's not > intelligence, it's just good old-fashioned pretentiousness.

on your next house set, just put some richie devine, or bogdan raczynski, or colongib, or fennesz, or downpour. when you're done, tell me how many people were left on the dancefloor & come say again that house & idm are one & the same. -- david