IDM Mailing Archive

I don't see why everyone's so hysterical about tunes. There seems to be some sugestion that the tune (ie the order of frequencies of sound waves) is in some way 'primary', and that the rhythms underneath it, the type of sound used, the degree of dsp buggery and so on are just decorations. I'm probably talking crap (no change there) but people seem to treat the tune with a ridiculous reverence - this thing that the tune should stand alone out of the context of the track - Why? Think of a synth: its got loads of controls; pulsewidth, ring mod, volume envelope, resonance... they all affect one aspect of the sound. But for some reason, the one that effects the pitch (the sequencer / keyboard) is important where all of the others aren't. End Melodic Fascism Jorkens

On Sun, 22 Aug 1999 TheevilD@aol.com wrote:

quoted 5 lines I don't see why everyone's so hysterical about tunes. There seems to be some

> > I don't see why everyone's so hysterical about tunes. There seems to be some > sugestion that the tune (ie the order of frequencies of sound waves) is in > some way 'primary', and that the rhythms underneath it, the type of sound > used, the degree of dsp buggery and so on are just decorations.

That view of melody (or more generally harmonic progression) is the cornerstone of western music. It took Africa (and African Americans) to bring rhythm and drums up to where they are co-equal with harmony in Western Music. When you hear a melody it has an emotional resonance that is, for most people, lacking in pure rhythm music. But that doesn't need to be the case -- when a good DJ drops "The Bells" by Jeff Mills into a set, you would need a heart of stone to resist the propulsive mood of that track. I personally am so attracted to Dance music because it emphasises rhythm and sound design over melody. When someone can really mesh harmony and rhythm (i.e. Muziq on a good day), it's a bonus. I don't think that regarding rhythm and DSP buggery as peripheral to harmony is that common among IDM list members frankly. But when an artist is able to work with harmonic progressions in that context, people notice it and comment on it.

ChairCrusher wrote:

quoted 4 lines That view of melody (or more generally harmonic progression) is the

> That view of melody (or more generally harmonic progression) is the > cornerstone of western music. It took Africa (and African Americans) to > bring rhythm and drums up to where they are co-equal with harmony > in Western Music.

I think rhythm & melody were on a equal level in Western music before the introduction of African (or Asian) rhythms. There was a lot of rhythmic intricacy in medieval music (check out Machaut & the whole Ars Nova period) and then of course much later Stravinsky did some amazing stuff. Schoenberg and Webern were also very rhythmically sophisticated though in more subtle ways. Even listen to Beethoven's 5th, I definitely think the rhythmic development in that piece is just as important as the melodic development. Even Brahms is famous for doing a lot of 3 against 2 stuff. I think what Africa did is introduce the west to different rhythmic patterns and "feels" and the emphasis of different beats (2 & 4 vs. 1 & 3). Andrei

On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Drusca wrote:

quoted 11 lines ChairCrusher wrote:

> ChairCrusher wrote: > > > That view of melody (or more generally harmonic progression) is the > > cornerstone of western music. It took Africa (and African Americans) to > > bring rhythm and drums up to where they are co-equal with harmony > > in Western Music. > > I think rhythm & melody were on a equal level in Western music before the > introduction of African (or Asian) rhythms. There was a lot of rhythmic > intricacy in medieval music (check out Machaut & the whole Ars Nova > period) and then of course much later Stravinsky did some amazing stuff.

Stravinsky was directly influenced by hearing African music in Paris. Just as Picasso was by seeing African ritual masks.

quoted 3 lines Even listen to Beethoven's 5th, I definitely think

> Even listen to Beethoven's 5th, I definitely think > the rhythmic development in that piece is just as important as the melodic > development. Even Brahms is famous for doing a lot of 3 against 2 stuff.

It's not that rhythm is absent from Classical Music, but that it is in most cases subservient to harmony. Bach wrote dance music too, but it's definitely not about jacking your body.

quoted 3 lines I think what Africa did is introduce the west to different rhythmic

> I think what Africa did is introduce the west to different rhythmic > patterns and "feels" and the emphasis of different beats (2 & 4 vs. 1 & 3). >

That's what I'm talking about. The whole primacy of syncopation and swing in music made in this century has a direct African lineage. The 'Bo Diddley' rhythm goes back straight to Yoruba chants, and can be heard everywhere, from Cuba to Brazil to Memphis.

Regardless of influence, African music has existed long before, and I reiterate, LONG BEFORE the period in which U spoke of early..............

quoted 19 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Drusca [SMTP:drusca@erols.com] > Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 3:45 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) The Africa in Music > > ChairCrusher wrote: > > > Stravinsky was directly influenced by hearing African music in Paris. > > Actually, he was influenced by Russian folk music, which often uses odd > time > signatures, when he composed Petrouchka, Firebird and Rite Of Spring. He > was > later influenced by ragtime in pieces like Soldier's Tale. You might be > thinking > of Debussy hearing Gamelan in Paris. > > Andrei

Maybe you should go back and read some of the previous posts. The topic was the influence of African music on the Western "classical" musical world which started sometime in the very-late 1800s, not who did what first. What I was trying to prove is that western composers have been just as concerned with rhythm as they have with melody/harmony for hundreds of years. I'll be the first one to admit that the use of rhythm by composers from Central Europe during the Baroque, Classical & Romantic periods is pretty "square" compared to the rhythms employed in African & Asian music, but it's definitely been a concern otherwise they would have composed a bunch of drones. European composers tend to be more lyrical than percussive. People have a tendency to think after hearing African or Latin music, etc. "Well, European music really doesn't pay attention to rhythm", but I think the truth is that those types of music put more emphasis on rhythm than melody therefore it's more noticeable. People don't notice the rhythms in a lot of classical music because equal emphasis is placed on melody AND rhythm. When you notice rhythm as in Stravinsky's Rite Of Spring it's because he's emphasizing rhythm over melody. And my opinions are based on active listening not from reading a "history book", although that certainly doesn't hurt. Whatever, this is getting kinda tedious. Andrei np: Varese - Live 3 ASKO Ensemble (ATTACCA) Kelley Hackett wrote:

quoted 22 lines Regardless of influence, African music has existed long before, and I

> Regardless of influence, African music has existed long before, and I > reiterate, LONG BEFORE the period in which U spoke of early.............. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Drusca [SMTP:drusca@erols.com] > > Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 3:45 PM > > To: idm@hyperreal.org > > Subject: Re: (idm) The Africa in Music > > > > ChairCrusher wrote: > > > > > Stravinsky was directly influenced by hearing African music in Paris. > > > > Actually, he was influenced by Russian folk music, which often uses odd > > time > > signatures, when he composed Petrouchka, Firebird and Rite Of Spring. He > > was > > later influenced by ragtime in pieces like Soldier's Tale. You might be > > thinking > > of Debussy hearing Gamelan in Paris. > > > > Andrei

quoted 44 lines Perhaps U should read your history book, or get a new one, many African

> Perhaps U should read your history book, or get a new one, many African > civilizations were doing this long before the time U mention > Pal........LONG > BEFORE! > > Hk! > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Drusca [SMTP:drusca@erols.com] > > Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 1:02 AM > > To: idm@hyperreal.org > > Subject: Re: (idm) three things that piss me off > > > > ChairCrusher wrote: > > > > > That view of melody (or more generally harmonic progression) is the > > > cornerstone of western music. It took Africa (and African Americans) > to > > > bring rhythm and drums up to where they are co-equal with harmony > > > in Western Music. > > > > I think rhythm & melody were on a equal level in Western music before the > > > introduction of African (or Asian) rhythms. There was a lot of rhythmic > > intricacy > > in medieval music (check out Machaut & the whole Ars Nova period) and > then > > of > > course much later Stravinsky did some amazing stuff. Schoenberg and > Webern > > were > > also very rhythmically sophisticated though in more subtle ways. Even > > listen to > > Beethoven's 5th, I definitely think the rhythmic development in that > piece > > is > > just as important as the melodic development. Even Brahms is famous for > > doing a > > lot of 3 against 2 stuff. > > I think what Africa did is introduce the west to different rhythmic > > patterns and > > "feels" and the emphasis of different beats (2 & 4 vs. 1 & 3). > > > > Andrei

Andrei, My point is not to say well he or she did it first. Rather, when U speak of an influence, coupled with the notion of going to the root, then it becomes as simple as going back to the oldest civilization(i.e., that civilization where music emerged out of), and performing ones studies from there. In my estimation it all seems quite logical! But I dont wanna get into a discussion of the logic progression of things and all! Still, your point has merit. And we, as "intelligent" humans, have to be the dumbest of all time! In that, we dont learn from what went before us. I, U, we cant make axiomatic statements and think they will hold for longer the 50 years(its pushing it to say 100years). Einstein, Pascal, Giddings, Ross, whomever, their theories have been improved................throughout time, which meant, that when they held it to be self-evident, actually it was not! Just a beginning discovery! Still, I would imagine that if we studied some of the earlier forms of music, we can find out more. But by all means we should study ALL forms. I just agreed with Mr. Crusher, because if i was looking for the root of, say music, the search, to me logically, would have to begin here. No more List stuff, is all private now

quoted 120 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Drusca [SMTP:drusca@erols.com] > Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 6:56 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) The Africa in Music > > Maybe you should go back and read some of the previous posts. The topic > was > the influence of African music on the Western "classical" musical world > which > started sometime in the very-late 1800s, not who did what first. What I > was > trying to prove is that western composers have been just as concerned with > rhythm as they have with melody/harmony for hundreds of years. I'll be the > first one to admit that the use of rhythm by composers from Central Europe > during the Baroque, Classical & Romantic periods is pretty "square" > compared > to the rhythms employed in African & Asian music, but it's definitely been > a > concern otherwise they would have composed a bunch of drones. European > composers tend to be more lyrical than percussive. > > People have a tendency to think after hearing African or Latin music, etc. > "Well, European music really doesn't pay attention to rhythm", but I think > the truth is that those types of music put more emphasis on rhythm than > melody therefore it's more noticeable. People don't notice the rhythms in > a > lot of classical music because equal emphasis is placed on melody AND > rhythm. > When you notice rhythm as in Stravinsky's Rite Of Spring it's because he's > emphasizing rhythm over melody. > > And my opinions are based on active listening not from reading a "history > book", although that certainly doesn't hurt. > > Whatever, this is getting kinda tedious. > > Andrei > > np: Varese - Live 3 > ASKO Ensemble (ATTACCA) > > Kelley Hackett wrote: > > > Regardless of influence, African music has existed long before, and I > > reiterate, LONG BEFORE the period in which U spoke of > early.............. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Drusca [SMTP:drusca@erols.com] > > > Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 3:45 PM > > > To: idm@hyperreal.org > > > Subject: Re: (idm) The Africa in Music > > > > > > ChairCrusher wrote: > > > > > > > Stravinsky was directly influenced by hearing African music in > Paris. > > > > > > Actually, he was influenced by Russian folk music, which often uses > odd > > > time > > > signatures, when he composed Petrouchka, Firebird and Rite Of Spring. > He > > > was > > > later influenced by ragtime in pieces like Soldier's Tale. You might > be > > > thinking > > > of Debussy hearing Gamelan in Paris. > > > > > > Andrei > > > Perhaps U should read your history book, or get a new one, many African > > civilizations were doing this long before the time U mention > > Pal........LONG > > BEFORE! > > > > Hk! > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Drusca [SMTP:drusca@erols.com] > > > Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 1:02 AM > > > To: idm@hyperreal.org > > > Subject: Re: (idm) three things that piss me off > > > > > > ChairCrusher wrote: > > > > > > > That view of melody (or more generally harmonic progression) is the > > > > cornerstone of western music. It took Africa (and African > Americans) > > to > > > > bring rhythm and drums up to where they are co-equal with harmony > > > > in Western Music. > > > > > > I think rhythm & melody were on a equal level in Western music before > the > > > > > introduction of African (or Asian) rhythms. There was a lot of > rhythmic > > > intricacy > > > in medieval music (check out Machaut & the whole Ars Nova period) and > > then > > > of > > > course much later Stravinsky did some amazing stuff. Schoenberg and > > Webern > > > were > > > also very rhythmically sophisticated though in more subtle ways. Even > > > listen to > > > Beethoven's 5th, I definitely think the rhythmic development in that > > piece > > > is > > > just as important as the melodic development. Even Brahms is famous > for > > > doing a > > > lot of 3 against 2 stuff. > > > I think what Africa did is introduce the west to different rhythmic > > > patterns and > > > "feels" and the emphasis of different beats (2 & 4 vs. 1 & 3). > > > > > > Andrei

Kelley Hackett <khackett@aba.iupui.edu> writes:

quoted 6 lines My point is not to say well he or she did it first. Rather, when U speak of

>>My point is not to say well he or she did it first. Rather, when U speak of >>an influence, coupled with the notion of going to the root, then it becomes >>as simple as going back to the oldest civilization(i.e., that civilization >>where music emerged out of), and performing ones studies from there. In my >>estimation it all seems quite logical! But I dont wanna get into a >>discussion of the logic progression of things and all!

I do! I do! I'm no anthropologist... but... Hasn't the OLDEST evidence of hominid music been in Neandertal societies of central Europe, where anthropologists have discovered one or more bone flutes? That was always my understanding. (Correct me if I'm wrong!) If that's the case, it means a few things: (1) Music has existed longer than modern humans have. (I understand Homo sapiens may be older than Neandertals, but my point is Neandertals are a non-human hominid society.) (2) Music emerged from hominids LONG before civilizations came around. Isn't that something? Music, dismissed by most people as a semi-pleasurable distraction, is more ancient and basic to the human mind than buildings, money, institutions, education, science, government, perhaps even farming. (3) I wonder what the tunings of the intervals are on these ancient instruments.... Hmm.... (4) I'm not pointing this out to try to quibble with your "out of Africa" point. I'm expanding on your point to say that music might be universal in humans and some pre-human (sub-)species. Wherever humans started/went, whether that be Africa or East Asia or Turkey (other origin hypotheses), they had/took some form of music. Peoples were probably beating drums in North America 25000 years ago, and they weren't influenced by African music. The same goes for precivilized Europe, East Asia, Asia Minor, etc. RHYTHM ISN'T AN AFRICAN PHENOMENON, IT'S A HUMAN PHENOMENON.

quoted 4 lines Still, your point has merit. And we, as "intelligent" humans, have to be

>>Still, your point has merit. And we, as "intelligent" humans, have to be >>the dumbest of all time! In that, we dont learn from what went before us. >>I, U, we cant make axiomatic statements and think they will hold for longer >>the 50 years(its pushing it to say 100years).

A "theory" is never "axiomatic" by the very definitions of the words. A theory is a good guess based on the evidence available at the time. No respectable scientist out there will claim his/her theories are the ultimate truth! Humans are VERY intelligent creatures.

quoted 1 line No more List stuff, is all private now

>>No more List stuff, is all private now

Sorry for the off-topic, but I think this subject has relevance and interest. If it's been exhausted on this list already I apologize! ChairCrusher? Seems uncannily similar to Squarepusher... kevin m R.