IDM Mailing Archive

1999-08-23 10:06m> > >I think Cage was probably the most important experimentalist ever. BUT his > >aesthet

From:: m <m@foundrysite.com>
To:: <TheevilD@aol.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:06:43 +0000
Subject:: Re: (idm) We are the music makers, we just don't know it yet

quoted 11 lines I think Cage was probably the most important experimentalist ever. BUT his

> > >I think Cage was probably the most important experimentalist ever. BUT his > >aesthetic system ("all sound--intentional or not--is musical") isa pretty > lame one, >imo. To be sure, all sounds can be considered artistically. But > I think "music" has >to be reserved for something separate from the buzzing > noise of the computer >terminal I sit in front of. If noise is music, then > everything is music (everything is >intrinsically noisy), and music, as an > art form, loses its virtue. > > Fair point, but a couple of things: > Its very difficult to define what is intentional...

I think the issue here is that music is a label the listener applies, not the composer/originator of the sounds. Every noise can have a musical quality if the listener chooses to hear it that way, and it makes very little difference what the "artist" intends in his recording/composition. A piece of art/music is dead until it is brought to life again by a listener, with his/her perception of the sounds. Some will hear music and some will hear noise... it's all equally valid, each person calls it how the see/hear it.

quoted 6 lines I think there's something fundamentally different in the way a Bruckner

> > > I think there's something fundamentally different in the way a Bruckner > symphony >or an Autechre track affects my mind than the sound of my breathing > (a sound I >hear every moment of my life) or other nonintentional noises that > Cage would class >as music. The word "music" loses all its meaning in the > Cagean aesthetic.

I don't believe it does. Again he is describing a way of perceiving music, not just composing it. If you choose to perceive music in other ways, using different criteria, then more power to you, because that is the ability you and all of us have to shape our worlds with our perceptions. We should all exercise our aesthetic senses, and also remain open to new ideas and accepting of the fact that different people see/hear things in different ways. m -- the foundry realaudio samples via: http://www.foundrysite.com/sounds1.html out now... eM <the motor sessions ep> (lmtd. 7"/lmtd. cdr) the foundry <mote> (cd) coming soon... eM remix on <knots> issued on thousand/wmo [out 8/10/99] http://wiremailorder.com/thousand/knots.htm

1999-08-23 10:17TheevilD@aol.com>I think Cage was probably the most important experimentalist ever. BUT his >aesthetic sys

From:: <TheevilD@aol.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 06:17:33 EDT
Subject:: (idm) We are the music makers, we just don't know it yet

quoted 2 lines I think Cage was probably the most important experimentalist ever. BUT his

>I think Cage was probably the most important experimentalist ever. BUT his >aesthetic system ("all sound--intentional or not--is musical") isa pretty

lame one, >imo. To be sure, all sounds can be considered artistically. But I think "music" has >to be reserved for something separate from the buzzing noise of the computer >terminal I sit in front of. If noise is music, then everything is music (everything is >intrinsically noisy), and music, as an art form, loses its virtue. Fair point, but a couple of things: Its very difficult to define what is intentional: once our attention is called to a sound, we put it on a pedestal, and listen to that rather than other sounds. That seems to be intentional, even though the sound itself isn't. This in itself makes the sound 'sonic art' (horrible phrase), if you consider it to be, but I'm not quite sure whether this makes it music. I think it should: certainly if you treated it as a performance ('Concerto for computer terminal?) it would be, or if you recorded it. imo, the moment at which a sound becomes music is when anyone decides that it is.

quoted 1 line I think there's something fundamentally different in the way a Bruckner

> I think there's something fundamentally different in the way a Bruckner

symphony >or an Autechre track affects my mind than the sound of my breathing (a sound I >hear every moment of my life) or other nonintentional noises that Cage would class >as music. The word "music" loses all its meaning in the Cagean aesthetic. Certainly it affects you differently, but is it fundamentally different? No-one said that because it is music it must be good music. This can also apply to your argument that as all sound becomes music, music looses its value. Add to this, if you were deaf and could not experience the music, would you still consider it to be music? Finally, bringing the thread full circle, the examples that you state are both relatively traditional music, whereas this entire debate stems from bands who could, essentially, be unintentional noise. Enough, before I write myself into a corner Jorkens

1999-08-23 14:57Nicholas W Zammutoan romanticised anecdote (late last spring): we were driving through wyoming. we had just

From:: Nicholas W Zammuto <nzammuto@wso.williams.edu>
To:: <TheevilD@aol.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:57:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) We are the music makers, we just don't know it yet
Reply to:: (idm) We are the music makers, we just don't know it yet

an romanticised anecdote (late last spring): we were driving through wyoming. we had just entered yellowstone national park and i had Aphex SAW II on at a comfortable listening level. it struck me at that moment how amazing it was that the music seemed to have the ability to seemlessly absorb its surroundings. the variegated hum of the engine, the wind around the car, the smell of sulphur, the fluffy big clouds... i felt the need to awaken my friend, asleep in the passenger seat, so she could experience the way the turning of the car on the road seemed to perfectly accompany the rhythm of the music, but i didn't because the slow sound of her breathing was such a perfect counterpoint to the tightening of the brakes as we rolled into the valley. resonance, my friends, is why we listen, right? we are more than playback engineers, music is bigger than we are.

1999-08-23 17:30Kevin M RyanNicholas W Zammuto <nzammuto@wso.williams.edu> writes: >>we were driving through wyoming.

From:: Kevin M Ryan <kevinryan@students.wisc.edu>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:30:18 -0500
Subject:: Re: (idm) We are the music makers, we just don't know it yet

Nicholas W Zammuto <nzammuto@wso.williams.edu> writes:

quoted 13 lines we were driving through wyoming. we had just entered yellowstone national

>>we were driving through wyoming. we had just entered yellowstone national >>park and i had Aphex SAW II on at a comfortable listening level. it >>struck me at that moment how amazing it was that the music seemed to have >>the ability to seemlessly absorb its surroundings. the variegated hum of >>the engine, the wind around the car, the smell of sulphur, the fluffy >>big clouds... i felt the need to awaken my friend, asleep in the passenger >>seat, so she could experience the way the turning of the car on the road >>seemed to perfectly accompany the rhythm of the music, but i didn't >>because the slow sound of her breathing was such a perfect counterpoint to >>the tightening of the brakes as we rolled into the valley. >> >>resonance, my friends, is why we listen, right? we are more than playback >>engineers, music is bigger than we are.

It's kind of ironic--the very reason I usually refuse to listen to ambient works (like the SAWs) or classical music in a car is all the background noise and the usually crappy stereos. But you took the background noise and made it part of the music--how very Cagean of you! On a vaguely related note, Autechre seems to be pretty cliche on this list. What is the name of the last track on the second disc of "Tri Repetae++"? I know this track was released previously. I must say--it is probably the most moving piece of modern music I've ever heard. Whenever I listen to it--but esp. when I first heard it-- I get almost painful attacks of nostalgia. I can't explain it any better than that; I just become overwhelmed by nostalgia of my youth to a point where I can hardly stand it. Must be a mental fluke of mine! Unlike John Cage, Autechre creates music I have a lot of trouble talking about. And you know what they (read: Eno) say about "talking about music"! kevin M R.

1999-08-23 17:28Andrew Hime> Unlike John Cage, Autechre creates music I have a lot of > trouble talking about. And yo

From:: Andrew Hime <hime@kali.wf.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:28:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) We are the music makers, we just don't know it yet
Reply to:: Re: (idm) We are the music makers, we just don't know it yet

quoted 3 lines Unlike John Cage, Autechre creates music I have a lot of

> Unlike John Cage, Autechre creates music I have a lot of > trouble talking about. And you know what they (read: Eno) > say about "talking about music"! kevin M R.

(read: Zappa), you mean? :)

1999-08-23 17:44Sharon Maher> Nicholas W Zammuto <nzammuto@wso.williams.edu> writes: > >>we were driving through wyomi

From:: Sharon Maher <smaher@looksmart.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:44:11 -0700
Subject:: Re: (idm) We are the music makers, we just don't know it yet

quoted 11 lines Nicholas W Zammuto <nzammuto@wso.williams.edu> writes:

> Nicholas W Zammuto <nzammuto@wso.williams.edu> writes: > >>we were driving through wyoming. we had just entered yellowstone national > >>park and i had Aphex SAW II on at a comfortable listening level. it > >>struck me at that moment how amazing it was that the music seemed to have > >>the ability to seemlessly absorb its surroundings. the variegated hum of > >>the engine, the wind around the car, the smell of sulphur, the fluffy > >>big clouds... i felt the need to awaken my friend, asleep in the passenger > >>seat, so she could experience the way the turning of the car on the road > >>seemed to perfectly accompany the rhythm of the music, but i didn't > >>because the slow sound of her breathing was such a perfect counterpoint to > >>the tightening of the brakes as we rolled into the valley.

I think all good music has the potential to be infused with a moment in time. For an example, the second track on the Reload LP - i first heard it while going over the Bay Bridge in the middle of the night and every time i listen to it, just a little bit of that moment is still there.

(idm) We are the music makers, we just don't know it yet