IDM Mailing Archive

1999-08-09 20:37Tomas JirkuDave Walker wrote: >If you've ever used Photoshop (or a similar program) >for graphics, yo

From:: Tomas Jirku <tomas@yirku.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 16:37:32 -0400
Subject:: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

Dave Walker wrote:

quoted 8 lines If you've ever used Photoshop (or a similar program)

>If you've ever used Photoshop (or a similar program) >for graphics, you've used the various plugins for >sharpening, blurring, distorting, whatever the >pixels on screen. Lots of audio software these >days (ProTools, for example) allows you to, >in a similar fashion, do transformations on >recorded audio. DSP stands for Digital Signal >Processing.

don't even think about comparing sight to sound. unless, of course, you are on LSD. tomas

1999-08-09 23:33eric hill>don't even think about comparing sight to sound. unless, of course, you >are on LSD. it's

From:: eric hill <ehill@best.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:33:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin
Reply to:: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

quoted 2 lines don't even think about comparing sight to sound. unless, of course, you

>don't even think about comparing sight to sound. unless, of course, you >are on LSD.

it's like the argument between "warm analog" and "cold digital" never happened! if only. many people experience synaesthesia, a condition in which one sense overlaps another. most people exhibit synesthesia by associating colors with words, letters and numbers, but there's a lot of people out there (you know, in the physical world) who hear sounds and imagine shapes, colors, and textures in response. eric

1999-08-10 00:12Jeremy BrattonOn Mon, 9 Aug 1999, eric hill wrote: <snip> } many people experience synaesthesia, a condi

From:: Jeremy Bratton <jeremy@rice.edu>
To:: eric hill <ehill@best.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:12:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

On Mon, 9 Aug 1999, eric hill wrote: <snip> } many people experience synaesthesia, a condition in which one sense } overlaps another. most people exhibit synesthesia by associating colors } with words, letters and numbers, but there's a lot of people out there } (you know, in the physical world) who hear sounds and imagine shapes, } colors, and textures in response. Be careful when talking about synaesthesia. It is a very rare condition where one type of sensation is actually experienced as something else. It is not merely an imagined or "mind's eye" type of connection between senses. Someone with synaesthesia might hear certain pitches or timbres and actually see colors or shapes...not just imagine them. Other sense combinations are possible; one might experience taste as feeling as in Richard Cytowic's book "The Man Who Tasted Shapes," which gives a great introduction to synaesthesia and what it has to tell us about the human mind. Jeremy

1999-08-10 02:31eric hill>Be careful when talking about synaesthesia. It is a very rare condition >where one type o

From:: eric hill <ehill@best.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:31:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

quoted 9 lines Be careful when talking about synaesthesia. It is a very rare condition

>Be careful when talking about synaesthesia. It is a very rare condition >where one type of sensation is actually experienced as something else. It >is not merely an imagined or "mind's eye" type of connection between >senses. Someone with synaesthesia might hear certain pitches or timbres >and actually see colors or shapes...not just imagine them. Other sense >combinations are possible; one might experience taste as feeling as in >Richard Cytowic's book "The Man Who Tasted Shapes," which gives a great >introduction to synaesthesia and what it has to tell us about the human >mind.

interesting book tip (thanks!), but i don't consider 1:25,000 to be "very rare," but perhaps there is an even hypier rarity that they give to people born without skin, 5 asses, etc. regardless, there is a clinical (i.e. debilitating) manifestation of synesthesia where people listen to the radio and and their field of vision is filled with colors, and a generic variety (i.e. not serious enough to be reported to the proper authorities) that informs peoples' listening experiences. i have personally encountered enough people "suffering" from the latter for me to cast suspicion on any rarity claims, especially when some putz announces that it only happens under the influence of powerful psychedelic drugs. eric onnow: v/a : spysatellite (viewlexx)

1999-08-09 20:50Shimone Samuelwell then. would you like to take a go at it and use a better metaphor? Once again the que

From:: Shimone Samuel <shimone@pnbc.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 13:50:02 -0700
Subject:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

well then. would you like to take a go at it and use a better metaphor? Once again the question: What is DSP and why are you purists so opposed to it? Shimone Tomas Jirku wrote:

quoted 14 lines Dave Walker wrote:

> Dave Walker wrote: > >If you've ever used Photoshop (or a similar program) > >for graphics, you've used the various plugins for > >sharpening, blurring, distorting, whatever the > >pixels on screen. Lots of audio software these > >days (ProTools, for example) allows you to, > >in a similar fashion, do transformations on > >recorded audio. DSP stands for Digital Signal > >Processing. > > don't even think about comparing sight to sound. unless, of course, you > are on LSD. > > tomas

1999-08-09 21:05cristianfear. luv. ted kennedy On Mon, 9 Aug 1999, Shimone Samuel wrote: > well then. would you li

From:: cristian <unit@interport.net>
To:: Shimone Samuel <shimone@pnbc.net>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 17:05:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

fear. luv. ted kennedy On Mon, 9 Aug 1999, Shimone Samuel wrote:

quoted 24 lines well then. would you like to take a go at it and use a better metaphor?

> well then. would you like to take a go at it and use a better metaphor? > Once again the question: What is DSP and why are you purists so opposed to > it? > > Shimone > > Tomas Jirku wrote: > > > Dave Walker wrote: > > >If you've ever used Photoshop (or a similar program) > > >for graphics, you've used the various plugins for > > >sharpening, blurring, distorting, whatever the > > >pixels on screen. Lots of audio software these > > >days (ProTools, for example) allows you to, > > >in a similar fashion, do transformations on > > >recorded audio. DSP stands for Digital Signal > > >Processing. > > > > don't even think about comparing sight to sound. unless, of course, you > > are on LSD. > > > > tomas > >

1999-08-09 20:50MilkAlive@aol.com

From:: <MilkAlive@aol.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:50:14 EDT
Subject:: Fwd: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

(no text content — attachments only)

1999-08-09 21:16Matthew AllenDSP in its most literal definition is Digital Signal Processing. Anything where you have a

From:: Matthew Allen <matthew@lith.com>
To:: 'Shimone Samuel' <shimone@pnbc.net>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:16:40 -0700
Subject:: RE: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

DSP in its most literal definition is Digital Signal Processing. Anything where you have a streaming in-coming digital signal (audio or video) and you muck with it. Anything. Basically anytime you use a digital processor (going all the way back to the first digital keyboards) in order to get it out to analog you have to use Some sort of DSP. How this term is being used recently is a little different. Most people now refer to Anything that's been mangled on the computer as having gone through a DSP effect. Due to the cheapness and availability of music programs on the computer these digital effects are becoming more and more prevalent. Some band started out using your basic straght outta the box software(metasynth, acid, various Protools plugins) and others have gone the 'i'm almost a programmer' route. (max, Csound, Kyma). Due to the very nature of how a signal is digitized and then analyzed alot of these sound mangling routines can come off sounding very similar, and theres also the Wow factor which has recently begun to die out with the graphics end of things but is just starting on the sound side. The WoW factor is basically the 'hey jhonny isnt it cool what i can make david bowie sound like' effect. The photshop plug-in analogy, i thought, was very good. If a little brusk. Not everyone made the same out of the box stuff with photshop when it came out, just like not everyone is using the preset Metasynth filters to make their song sound 'weird'. m. -----Original Message----- From: Shimone Samuel [mailto:shimone@pnbc.net] Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 1:50 PM To: idm@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin well then. would you like to take a go at it and use a better metaphor? Once again the question: What is DSP and why are you purists so opposed to it? Shimone Tomas Jirku wrote:

quoted 14 lines Dave Walker wrote:

1999-08-10 02:19Dave WalkerTomas Jirku wrote: > don't even think about comparing sight to sound. unless, of course, y

From:: Dave Walker <marmoset@mich.com>
To:: Plants and Birds and Rocks and Things <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 22:19:00 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

Tomas Jirku wrote:

quoted 2 lines don't even think about comparing sight to sound. unless, of course, you

> don't even think about comparing sight to sound. unless, of course, you > are on LSD.

Rave on, man. Next... Shimone Samuel wrote:

quoted 2 lines Once again the question: What is DSP and why are you purists so

> Once again the question: What is DSP and why are you purists so > opposed to it?

Digital Signal Processing: take a signal (in this case audio), do some matrix math on it (in hardware or software), and use the result. It's like any other tool -- it can be used for good or ill. I'm just of the opinion that, for all too many musicians, it's this years version of Capri pants, if you know what I mean. I wouldn't call myself a purist, I'm just a guy whose heard enough digital clipping to last me awhile, thanks. Use the tools, don't let them use you. cristian said:

quoted 1 line fear.

> fear.

Thanks for playing. You get a copy of our home game. -d.w.

1999-08-10 05:04Nyhil@aol.com> good or ill. I'm just of the opinion that, for all too > many musicians, it [DSP'ing]'s

From:: <Nyhil@aol.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 01:04:24 EDT
Subject:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

quoted 3 lines good or ill. I'm just of the opinion that, for all too

> good or ill. I'm just of the opinion that, for all too > many musicians, it [DSP'ing]'s this years version of Capri pants, > if you know what I mean.

We can only wonder: do Sean and Rob wear pirate pants?

1999-08-10 14:00ChairCrusherOn Tue, 10 Aug 1999 Nyhil@aol.com wrote: > > good or ill. I'm just of the opinion that, fo

From:: ChairCrusher <kent@avalon.net>
To:: <Nyhil@aol.com>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:00:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:: (idm) Autechre fashion tips
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 Nyhil@aol.com wrote:

quoted 6 lines good or ill. I'm just of the opinion that, for all too

> > good or ill. I'm just of the opinion that, for all too > > many musicians, it [DSP'ing]'s this years version of Capri pants, > > if you know what I mean. > > We can only wonder: do Sean and Rob wear pirate pants? >

People don't this but in the privacy of their studio, Sean & Rob put on Hammer pants and do a Hammer Dance to their tracks when they make them. Only tracks that pass the "hammer dance test" end up on their releases.

1999-08-10 15:02Bordeaux, Ethani think a lot of the DSP backlash is b/c a number of musicians seem to be substituting DSP

From:: Bordeaux, Ethan <Ethan.Bordeaux@analog.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:59 -0400
Subject:: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

i think a lot of the DSP backlash is b/c a number of musicians seem to be substituting DSP plugins for well thought out musical ideas. it's cool the first few times to listen to sounds get morphed beyond recognition. but, eventually i just got a bit numb to it and feel like it's a cheap way out. not only that, but b/c there's a relatively high percentage of music makers on the list, we know that a lot of these musical treatments are much easier to create than they sound. as an example (and i hate to use them), autechre circa 96-97 represented the best melding of music technology and human emotion i've heard. anvil vapre, garbage, envane & chiastic slide all feel spot on perfect. they seemed to be using their machines to communicate. on lp5, it felt like they're the ones being used. maybe that was the point? at least on ep7 it feels like their regaining a bit of control. i really do hope they can reign in their tools a bit more and it becomes something beyond a collection of interesting noises. it's interesting (for me at least) to consider how undeveloped this genre of music is & how much potential lies within. i just hope that more people are able to get past the whizz-bang factor and go on to create something new and dramatic and musical... people seem to be arguing that IDM lacks too much I or D, well here's someone looking for more M... ethan ps - i think this minirant was partially motivated by listening to amber on the way to work. tomorrow i'll be lauding lp5 as the best thing ae's ever done...

1999-08-10 15:10chad mossholderI understand the point here. I guess the key is to utilize whatever technology you can, pu

From:: chad mossholder <twine_sound@hotmail.com>
To:: <Ethan.Bordeaux@analog.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:10:39 CDT
Subject:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

I understand the point here. I guess the key is to utilize whatever technology you can, push it as far as you can and use it in ways that no one else is (which is damn near impossible sometimes ;) ) Anyhow, I agree that it must be well crafted with a great attention to detail. EP7 achieves certainly achieves this. But then, so do Cage compositions that are relying on Chance Operations. But, he generated these systems to achieve a desired end. I guess my point is do whatever you have to, use whatever you have to, just thor?ough?ly think out every minute detail. :) Chad . . . twine . . . http://home.earthlink.net/~twinesound

quoted 45 lines From: "Bordeaux, Ethan" <Ethan.Bordeaux@analog.com>

>From: "Bordeaux, Ethan" <Ethan.Bordeaux@analog.com> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: (idm) Re: DSP plugin >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:59 -0400 > >i think a lot of the DSP backlash is b/c a number of musicians seem to be >substituting DSP plugins for well thought out musical ideas. it's cool the >first few times to listen to sounds get morphed beyond recognition. but, >eventually i just got a bit numb to it and feel like it's a cheap way out. >not >only that, but b/c there's a relatively high percentage of music makers on >the >list, we know that a lot of these musical treatments are much easier to >create >than they sound. > >as an example (and i hate to use them), autechre circa 96-97 represented >the >best melding of music technology and human emotion i've heard. anvil >vapre, >garbage, envane & chiastic slide all feel spot on perfect. they seemed to >be >using their machines to communicate. on lp5, it felt like they're the ones >being used. maybe that was the point? at least on ep7 it feels like their >regaining a bit of control. i really do hope they can reign in their tools >a >bit more and it becomes something beyond a collection of interesting >noises. > >it's interesting (for me at least) to consider how undeveloped this genre >of >music is & how much potential lies within. i just hope that more people >are >able to get past the whizz-bang factor and go on to create something new >and >dramatic and musical... people seem to be arguing that IDM lacks too much >I or >D, well here's someone looking for more M... > >ethan > >ps - i think this minirant was partially motivated by listening to amber on >the >way to work. tomorrow i'll be lauding lp5 as the best thing ae's ever >done...

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1999-08-10 15:38Bordeaux, Ethani agree that it's good to use whatever technology you can, but i don't necessarily believe

From:: Bordeaux, Ethan <Ethan.Bordeaux@analog.com>
To:: chad mossholder <twine_sound@hotmail.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:38:32 -0400
Subject:: RE: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

i agree that it's good to use whatever technology you can, but i don't necessarily believe that you have to use it ways no one else has. the point should be to use technology to create whatever vision you have trapped in your head. if it involves implementing traditional techniques that's fine. focusing on using tools in ways they've never been used before feels like an avant-garde motivation. however, i feel electronic music is most effective when it involves both a strong internal motivation from the composer AND techniques of creating/finding sound that may not have been considered in the past. on a related note - i think it's pretty neat that a lot of my favorite artists are influenced by avant-garde electronics, even though they might not necessarily sound very much like them. it's the melding of "academic sound" and music that i'm most fascinated with right now... ethan

quoted 20 lines ----------

> ---------- > From: chad mossholder[SMTP:twine_sound@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 11.10 AM > To: Bordeaux, Ethan; idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin > > > I understand the point here. I guess the key is to utilize whatever > technology you can, push it as far as you can and use it in ways that no one > else is (which is damn near impossible sometimes ;) ) Anyhow, I agree > that it must be well crafted with a great attention to detail. EP7 achieves > certainly achieves this. But then, so do Cage compositions that are relying > on Chance Operations. But, he generated these systems to achieve a desired > end. I guess my point is do whatever you have to, use whatever you have to, > just thor*ough*ly think out every minute detail. :) > > Chad . . . > twine . . . > http://home.earthlink.net/~twinesound >

1999-08-10 15:41chad mossholderMy point was, in saying to use the tools in new ways, is to advance the state of music. To

From:: chad mossholder <twine_sound@hotmail.com>
To:: <Ethan.Bordeaux@analog.com>, <twine_sound@hotmail.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:41:59 CDT
Subject:: RE: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

My point was, in saying to use the tools in new ways, is to advance the state of music. To innovate. :) It's a personal goal, but important for the evolution of sound. Chad . . . :)

quoted 54 lines From: "Bordeaux, Ethan" <Ethan.Bordeaux@analog.com>

>From: "Bordeaux, Ethan" <Ethan.Bordeaux@analog.com> >To: chad mossholder <twine_sound@hotmail.com>, idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: RE: (idm) Re: DSP plugin >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:38:32 -0400 > >i agree that it's good to use whatever technology you can, but i don't >necessarily believe that you have to use it ways no one else has. the >point >should be to use technology to create whatever vision you have trapped in >your >head. if it involves implementing traditional techniques that's fine. >focusing >on using tools in ways they've never been used before feels like an >avant-garde >motivation. however, i feel electronic music is most effective when it >involves >both a strong internal motivation from the composer AND techniques of >creating/finding sound that may not have been considered in the past. > >on a related note - i think it's pretty neat that a lot of my favorite >artists >are influenced by avant-garde electronics, even though they might not >necessarily sound very much like them. it's the melding of "academic >sound" and >music that i'm most fascinated with right now... > >ethan > > > ---------- > > From: chad mossholder[SMTP:twine_sound@hotmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 11.10 AM > > To: Bordeaux, Ethan; idm@hyperreal.org > > Subject: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin > > > > > > I understand the point here. I guess the key is to utilize whatever > > technology you can, push it as far as you can and use it in ways that no >one > > else is (which is damn near impossible sometimes ;) ) Anyhow, I >agree > > that it must be well crafted with a great attention to detail. EP7 >achieves > > certainly achieves this. But then, so do Cage compositions that are >relying > > on Chance Operations. But, he generated these systems to achieve a >desired > > end. I guess my point is do whatever you have to, use whatever you have >to, > > just thor*ough*ly think out every minute detail. :) > > > > Chad . . . > > twine . . . > > http://home.earthlink.net/~twinesound > >

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1999-08-10 22:03Tomas Jirkuno man, you've got me all wrong. i would be what they call "straight-edge". xxxknowledgexx

From:: Tomas Jirku <tomas@yirku.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Cc:: <marmoset@mich.com>
Date:: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:03:59 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Re: DSP plugin

no man, you've got me all wrong. i would be what they call "straight-edge". xxxknowledgexxx tomas

quoted 5 lines Tomas Jirku wrote:

>>Tomas Jirku wrote: >> don't even think about comparing sight to sound. unless, of course, you >> are on LSD. > >Rave on, man. Next...