IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 5 lines an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is

>an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is >specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption. if >you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the >culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it down >to make it more palatable for people of your own culture,

where the hell did you come up with a comment like that? please explain the validity of it to us all. tomas

quoted 6 lines you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the

>>you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the >>culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it down >>to make it more palatable for people of your own culture, > >where the hell did you come up with a comment like that? please explain >the validity of it to us all.

i think it's kind of like when someone creates techno music, but doesn't like DJ's. eric

quoted 8 lines an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is

> >an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is > >specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption. if > >you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the > >culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it down > >to make it more palatable for people of your own culture, > > where the hell did you come up with a comment like that? please explain > the validity of it to us all.

i might be totally wrong on this, but i think Multsanta is referring to the fact that hip-hop music isn't just cool noises and slick beats. Was it Chuck D? that said "Rap is the CNN of the street." i don't think it's THAT outrageous for Multsanta to have beef with artists taking the music that is tied inseparably to the urban culture of america's cities, distilling the political and cultural element out of it completely (and please no one try and t ell us that there is no political element in rap & hip-hop) and turning it into an uncharged, sterilized + acceptable way for white folks to 'get their groove on.' i don't really think anyone is saying trip-hop or whatever is ethically wrong or anything, just that trip-hop and other caucasion attempts at harnessing the spirit of hip-hop just don't do it for most people with an intimate attachment to hip-hop and the culture it is borne of. ,rj../ ___,">www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1

At 02:32 PM 7/16/99 -0500, nordberg wrote:

quoted 4 lines an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is

>> >an issue at all, it's CULTURE. my problem is when this music is >> >specifically watered down by suburbanites for suburban consumption. if >> >you're going to partake in other cultures, please have respect for the >> >culture. When someone feels a need to steal this culture and water it

down

quoted 25 lines to make it more palatable for people of your own culture,

>> >to make it more palatable for people of your own culture, >> >> where the hell did you come up with a comment like that? please explain >> the validity of it to us all. > >i might be totally wrong on this, but i think >Multsanta is referring to the fact that hip-hop >music isn't just cool noises and slick beats. >Was it Chuck D? that said "Rap is the CNN of >the street." i don't think it's THAT outrageous >for Multsanta to have beef with artists taking >the music that is tied inseparably to the urban >culture of america's cities, distilling the political >and cultural element out of it completely (and please >no one try and t ell us that there is no political >element in rap & hip-hop) and turning it into >an uncharged, sterilized + acceptable way for >white folks to 'get their groove on.' > >i don't really think anyone is saying trip-hop >or whatever is ethically wrong or anything, just >that trip-hop and other caucasion attempts at >harnessing the spirit of hip-hop just don't do >it for most people with an intimate attachment >to hip-hop and the culture it is borne of.

thank you! rjyan hit the nail on the head there. when i wrote that previous post it was 2:30 am and i really wasn't communicating my ideas properly. it didn't occur to me that i was speaking to people who have no concept of the extreme cultural value of hip hop (no offense) np: mr. bungle- california... this is excellent. everyone get this now.

i understood that much from the beginning. i'm just wondering why he decided to narrow the blame on "suburbanites". you think pop culture is the product of and for the suburbs? this division does not exist in pop culture. pop culture is all-emcompassing. in hiphop the division you're referring to is: ghetto ("keepin' it real") and non-ghetto ("watered down for mass consumption"). tomas (disgruntled suburbanite. bored, but happy to be away from the noise and pollution of the city.) nordberg wrote:

quoted 13 lines i might be totally wrong on this, but i think

> i might be totally wrong on this, but i think > Multsanta is referring to the fact that hip-hop > music isn't just cool noises and slick beats. > Was it Chuck D? that said "Rap is the CNN of > the street." i don't think it's THAT outrageous > for Multsanta to have beef with artists taking > the music that is tied inseparably to the urban > culture of america's cities, distilling the political > and cultural element out of it completely (and please > no one try and t ell us that there is no political > element in rap & hip-hop) and turning it into > an uncharged, sterilized + acceptable way for > white folks to 'get their groove on.'

At 03:21 PM 7/16/99 -0400, Tomas Jirku wrote:

quoted 2 lines i understood that much from the beginning. i'm just wondering why he

>i understood that much from the beginning. i'm just wondering why he >decided to narrow the blame on "suburbanites".

i'm not blaming anyone but the trip hop producers. if someone from the ghetto waters down hip hop to sell it to suburbanites it's the exact same situation.

quoted 2 lines you think pop culture is

>you think pop culture is >the product of and for the suburbs?

no, pop culture is usually the product of the ghetto, then watered down and produced by marketable white musicians for consumption by all.

quoted 4 lines this division does not exist in pop

>this division does not exist in pop >culture. pop culture is all-emcompassing. in hiphop the division you're >referring to is: ghetto ("keepin' it real") and non-ghetto ("watered >down for mass consumption").

i understand that, but remember, we're (at least i'm) not talking about pop culture in it's entirety, but rather, specifically trip hop, which has virtually no presence in the ghetto... how often do you hear dj shadow pumpin' out of a ghetto blaster?

quoted 4 lines i understand that, but remember, we're (at least i'm) not talking about pop

>i understand that, but remember, we're (at least i'm) not talking about pop >culture in it's entirety, but rather, specifically trip hop, which has >virtually no presence in the ghetto... how often do you hear dj shadow >pumpin' out of a ghetto blaster?

WTF? First you're complaining about how shit is watered down for mass consumption, and then you say how the fact that people don't play shodaw out of their boomboxes is evidence that he's watered it down. Fuck no. The big hip hop has usually watered it down. That's how they get big. DJ Shadow is all about keeping hiphop real (or at least trying). Check his production for latyrx among others. And i hear much of the stuff he's produced coming out of the best hip hop soundsystems in Minneapolis. Also, i know lots of hip-hop heads that i've turned on to tricky. Maybe the reason that the original ghetto culture you talk about hasn't embraced trip-hop variants is that it hasn't been marketed to them. While pork artists for example take a hip-hop beat (which is just about everywhere nowadays), their lack of vocals has nothing to do with marketing and making their music accessible to suburbanites. Hello, maybe it's just some people's artistic vision to make non-boring instrumental hip-hop. Maybe they don't want an MC. Maybe they don't want to be political. So what? If you're gonna complain about shit like that, complain about Ma$e, the Fugees, K-ci and Jojo, etc. _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu University of Idaho / Moscow / ID / USA Visit my Fila Brazillia/Pork Recordings fan site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "Because success needs killing" TRICKY

quoted 6 lines i understood that much from the beginning. i'm just wondering why he

> i understood that much from the beginning. i'm just wondering why he > decided to narrow the blame on "suburbanites". you think pop culture is > the product of and for the suburbs? this division does not exist in pop > culture. pop culture is all-emcompassing. in hiphop the division you're > referring to is: ghetto ("keepin' it real") and non-ghetto ("watered > down for mass consumption").

pop culture, of course, reigns well beyond the suburbs. but, i don't think that it's questionable that the major influencers of pop culture -- big business and to an extent, the govenment -- are controlled almost exclusively by white people with lots of money. who tend to dwell in the suburbs. i don't think multsanta or i are trying to say that EVERYONE who lives in the suburbs is guilty of some ethical crime, rather it's just a convenient label, and i shall retract it and replace it with "fatcats" or "cracker bourgeoisie" if you'd like. ,rj../ ___,">www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1

White suburban dwellers are the root of all evil, you see. It's quite simple, really. White suburbanites are the only group massive and presumably privileged enough to attack at random for all the problems within America. The white suburbs have no voice of their own and thus can be lambasted at will for all the shit that happens in this country without fear of backlash. If you live in a major metropolis, not only do you get to see all the cool shows, you also get to talk down to anybody who lives anywhere else, since the city is where 'everything happens, man.' Any contribution to the arts by a person from outside the city can be easily derided simply because of its geographic origin. Plus, black Americans automatically get double quality points for everything they do since all of us white folk spend so much time shitting on them, or at least we used to. I'm fucking sick of it, because according to this equation nothing I put out has any merit compared to, say, DJ Spooky. Fuck A Bunch Of That. I hate this entire argument- I wish I could just forget what color every artist I ever listened to was or what city/country/scene they came from. The whole business can be distilled down to simple elitism and the insatiable human desire to pigeonhole everything. Just listen to the music and see if you like it; the art is what belongs under the microscope, never the artist or his intentions. Last time I checked, the combination of politics and art was called propaganda (socialist realism, anyone)? Tom

quoted 6 lines White suburban dwellers are the root of all evil, you see.

> White suburban dwellers are the root of all evil, you see. > It's quite simple, really. White suburbanites are the only group massive > and presumably privileged enough to attack at random for all the > problems within America. The white suburbs have no voice of their own > and thus can be lambasted at will for all the shit that happens in this > country without fear of backlash.

I presume you are a white suburbanite. As another white suburbanite, I understand that having this arguement pushed in your face repeatedly is annoying, especially since there's nothing you as an individual feel you can really do about the situation. but as a caring human being, i also know that it's of dire importance that this arguement be pushed in your face, because if left unchallenged, white america would most certainly not make any attempt to rectify the current conditions of gross inequality in our country.

quoted 10 lines If you live in a major metropolis, not only do you get to see all the

> If you live in a major metropolis, not only do you get to see all the > cool shows, you also get to talk down to anybody who lives anywhere > else, since the city is where 'everything happens, man.' Any > contribution to the arts by a person from outside the city can be easily > derided simply because of its geographic origin. Plus, black Americans > automatically get double quality points for everything they do since all > of us white folk spend so much time shitting on them, or at least we > used to. I'm fucking sick of it, because according to this equation > nothing I put out has any merit compared to, say, DJ Spooky. Fuck A > Bunch Of That.

excuse my sarcasm, but next time i'm in the ghetto, i'll be sure to remind all the residents there that they should be THANKFUL to live in the housing projects, because they get to go to all the "cool shows" and if they somehow scrape together the money for some artistic endeavors and can take some time off of that whole "Surviving" thing they spend all day doing, they can make a record that will be recognized as more legit than your record. sorry, but these paltry "advantages" to living in the city (which are bullshit anyway... especially on this list -- has anyone ever questioned whether Cornwall is 'ghetto' enough to make AFX a legit artist?) mean NOTHING set against the reality that is living as a minority in America. i don't even think i have to go into this... anyone who's ever opened their eyes in this society knows that minorities (including that curiously large group known as females) don't have the easiest time living in a society whose tenants are built almost exclusively around a white, priveledged, male experience.

quoted 4 lines I hate this entire argument- I wish I could just forget what color every

> I hate this entire argument- I wish I could just forget what color every > artist I ever listened to was or what city/country/scene they came from. > The whole business can be distilled down to simple elitism and the > insatiable human desire to pigeonhole everything.

if your gut instinct is to "forget" about the questions of race and equality and oppression, that is proof enough these arguements MUST be pushed. if you forgot all about race, do you think that minorities in america will just be able to move on out of the segregated ghettos they live in? get into good colleges? get decent jobs? maybe you can say "hey! i didn't push the black man down!" but the fact is that he IS down, and as a human being who cares about other human beings, you should feel some responsibility and compassion to help him back up. White America, esp white middle class America, holds a huge amount of power in this country. it is an abuse of that power to neglect that your fellow man needs your help. Apathy is just as racist as cross-burnings and lynchings. on the larger scale, the effect is the same: the supression of change.

quoted 4 lines Just listen to the music and see if you like it; the art is what belongs

> Just listen to the music and see if you like it; the art is what belongs > under the microscope, never the artist or his intentions. Last time I > checked, the combination of politics and art was called propaganda > (socialist realism, anyone)?

maybe it is, but i think when we live in a time when reactionary indoctrination is so complete and efficient thanks to technological advances in media, i'm more than glad to welcome a little propaganda from the other side that puts those same technological advances to work to motivate change for the better. -rjyan kidwell ___,">www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1

Kelley Hackett wrote:

quoted 14 lines Ha ha ha ha, bitter sarcasm is uncalled for Mr. Millar, but I would imagine

> > Ha ha ha ha, bitter sarcasm is uncalled for Mr. Millar, but I would imagine > me calling U a bitch is too, so we are even on that score! > > How is this.........I rant and Rave about B12, Stasis and John B. no of whom > is African American!.........And I not once mentioned white, i do believe, > in any of my post, save this one.........but I wouldnt head down that path > if I were U, being that U are so sick of it! > > Where is my freind Mercenary at, I need one order of cement shoes Merc! > > Now let us see, who began this racial ball moving anyway! Hmmmmmmm, perhaps > its loaded in the words................Awwwwhhh shit I am just wasting > time................

It is loaded in the words, and that's unfortunate... my beef is with the idea that, given two pieces of music, the one produced by an individual who is "ghetto" or whatever is more worthy of respect. I do not think art should ever be judged on the nature of its creators. If you agree, then it's all good. I just don't care for "white folks got no soul"-type arguments anymore (not that you ever made any) and feel inclined to respond whenever somebody brings it up. That's one of the reasons I'm no longer on 313... Tom

nordberg wrote:

quoted 2 lines if your gut instinct is to "forget" about the

> if your gut instinct is to "forget" about the > questions of race and equality and oppression,

That's not my gut instinct. That's my wish. I wish that we could leave all of this behind, and I thought that at least on the IDM list there wouldn't be arguments like this popping. I live in the motherfucking Bible Belt. I go to a college where the Greek societies and several other organizations segregate themselves on purpose, even against university policy. I'm in a writing course where when somebody uses the word "black" we have to go into an intense analysis of the author's motives. I slip on this argument on the sidewalk, I smell this argument coming ten miles away, and I make this argument when I see others being ignorant. If you want to continue this, we can take it offlist. Tom

kind of along this note and kinda not is something that i noticed last night going throught the day's shit load of posts - the posters to this list can only have fun for about 3 seconds before they remember that they're way too fucking cool to go along with what anyone else thinks. Someone starts a thread saying "hey, this shit's cool!" and the first like, 3 or 4 responses are like "yeah, it is cool, how bout this?" But then, inevitably, someone has to pipe up, "well, when you realize that that person/group etc is really only ripping off this person, and stole this shit from them and blah blah blah", and then suddenly there are the attacks: on people's intelligence, race, home, etc. once in awhile is funny to read. Every fucking day is stupid, and makes us as a group look like every sort of elitist, prejudiced dick we trash. At 03:56 PM 7/16/99 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 1 line White suburban dwellers are the root of all evil, you see.

>White suburban dwellers are the root of all evil, you see.

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