IDM Mailing Archive

WARNING: THIS E-MAIL CONTAINS MANY EXTREME AND SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS. READ WITH AN OPEN MIND There is something about this whole techno movement that really kind of bothers me... and its something I have witnessed time and time again. Now before you people tear me apart here for voicing my opinion, hear me out. In my opinion -- there is a certain kind of "arrogance" inherent in techno. It was something that I, myself, was caught up in for quite awhile. Any of you who have checked out the "IDEAS: TICK TOCK BANG: NOISE IN MODERN ART" (http://www.radio.cbc.ca/programs/ideas/shows/noise/index.html) radio program produced by the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting company) will recall novelist Russel Smith saying a few of the following things about "techno music" in its avant-garde context. Here are some quotes from the radio show.... [As an aside -- if you haven't, you really should check it out] "The world of techno music is anonymous, the music home-made; there are few star groups." "Christopher Dewdney: For me, it's a pure source of energy. I listen to techno strictly as a source of energy. It's food for me. It's also a little bit of -- I guess I'm a futurist, in a sense. So techno also maybe has that edge to it. It's quite modern. It's modern music. But I primarily use it as an energy source." "This rather numbing music tends to attract intellectuals. The Canadian poet Christopher Dewdney is the author of Last Flesh: Life in the Transhuman Era. He listens to techno music." Now, looking at this (I wanted to use quotes from someone else to sort of back my own opinions) we can sort of describe techno with some of the following adjectives: avant garde intellectual anti-pop minimalist obscure anti-mainstream futuristic and... to a certain extent... "inaccessible" There is, in my eyes, a certain arrogance that follows with this whole music that I is really starting to push me away from it (not in any kind of major way, really, though). The things I DO like about techno is the way that it pushes the boundaries of music and has this sort of "futuristic" mindset to itself.. but the thing I don't like is the arrogance of people who post things like this (this is a reply to my post from earlier today on the 313 list): My text:

quoted 3 lines I think that thats one area where "techno" and "electronic music" in

>> I think that thats one area where "techno" and "electronic music" in >> general is lacking -- unoriginal drum sounds and un original electronic >> sounds.

And the reply:

quoted 2 lines Why would you want to record live percussion? Are they not the most

>Why would you want to record live percussion? Are they not the most >unoriginal sounds since they have been used for eons?

So whats the point here? Sometimes in order to move forward you have to move backwards. Not every nuance and detail, acoustically speaking, can be re-created by electronics. You can never re-create the sound of a plucking guitar string with electronics. You can never create any kind of "live" feel that exists in woodwind instruments, for example. This of course is not the point... but I really think that more artists need to look at a "hybrid" approach to production. Jimi Tenor also said something very interesting to me during a recent interview: "...Well I buy a lot of weird and obscure musical instruments... because no matter what the instrument is you can always get at least one good sound out of it..." I think back immediately to a friend of mine who is trying to put together his first 12" .. he sends me over his mp3 files of the tracks he is working on and give him my feedback. He has sent me 10-12 tracks thus far and the ones that stand out are the ones that have live samples in them. He made a track called brooklyn jazz with live samples of guitar riffs and saxaphones and the thing rocked like a motherfucker. Maybe its me thats tired of "techno production" and is more interested in "music production", but I think a lot of people have gotten into music through techno/house/whatever and have kind of "stuck" in these genres. Why are there even any "characteristic sounds" in techno music? Shouldn't it all be so different and "futuristic" that each piece is unique? A friend of mine has the following quote in his signature "musical standards destroy innovation" -- Its time to think more about this, people. How many techno records will stand out to you in 10 years? -peter (PS: the new UR - "Knights of the Jaguar" kicks ass)

quoted 1 line How many techno records will stand out to you in 10 years?

> How many techno records will stand out to you in 10 years?

Funnily enough, none of the records released in 89 that I can think of really stand out to me, unless "Working on Sunshine 89" by Fax Yourself counts, which I guess it does. Now, 2001 or 2002 - Altern8, Transformer 2's "Fruit of Love" (which just got remixed again by DJ Icey of all people, and the symphonic mix is fucking grand) and all that? Those songs will still stand out to me. Not IDM by any stretch, though, so I suppose I'm off topic.

quoted 1 line

>

quoted 7 lines So whats the point here? Sometimes in order to move forward you have to

> So whats the point here? Sometimes in order to move forward you have to > move backwards. Not every nuance and detail, acoustically speaking, can be > re-created by electronics. You can never re-create the sound of a plucking > guitar string with electronics. You can never create any kind of "live" > feel that exists in woodwind instruments, for example. This of course is > not the point... but I really think that more artists need to look at a > "hybrid" approach to production.

What do you think Squarepusher is doing?? and please use a different term to generalize all electronic music rather than techno. techno is crap electronic music like Keoki and Moby.

quoted 1 line In my opinion -- there is a certain kind of "arrogance" inherent in techno.

>In my opinion -- there is a certain kind of "arrogance" inherent in techno.

And off course there is an arrogance with this music, as there is with almost anything that started underground. we think this is better than what's mainstream - true. i think someone who is purchasing the nsync album has inferior music taste than mine.

quoted 1 line It was something that I, myself, was caught up in for quite awhile.

> It was something that I, myself, was caught up in for quite awhile.

have you grown above that? i kind of like my arrogance on this subject.

quoted 1 line How many techno records will stand out to you in 10 years?

>How many techno records will stand out to you in 10 years?

which ones stand out from ten years ago?? cb.

Chester Blaze wrote:

quoted 3 lines to generalize all electronic music rather than techno. techno is crap

> to generalize all electronic music rather than techno. techno is crap > electronic music like Keoki and Moby. >

I wouldn't say that in Detroit if I were you. Time to get some education..... -daniel Head Monkey Mad Monkey Records http://monkey.eliteware.com

On Tue, 11 May 1999, Moonlight wrote:

quoted 5 lines used for a subgenre that includes "lite techno," like Madonna albums. IDM

> used for a subgenre that includes "lite techno," like Madonna albums. IDM > has that damn rephlex/warp/skam concept to it. Is there a large category > that includes everything from Fila Brazillia and Coldcut to "Rotted One > Note" to Coil to IDM and ambient and techno/house and jungle yet still > excludes pop music? Can we invent one?

Experimental electronic music experimental techno Don't let others' misuse of a word that you think accurately describes something keep you from using it. "Experimental" has a dennotation that is far stronger than any stigma a connotation can suggest. Techno being described as the original electronic dance music of the late80's/early90's and experimental being just like the dictionary definition(s). Coming up with a new hybrid name seems superfluous when most of what you are listenning to is still 4/4 made on drum boxes and computers/sequencers.

quoted 2 lines (what other meta-genres would

>(what other meta-genres would > have songs written by pictures?),

The "fake" Dr Moolenbeek of Hafler Trio, an experimental electronic music (maybe called "noise music") supposedly generated pictures from paint exposed to soundwaves (just a joke, afaict) though that is the reverse process of what you mentioned. Also, Conlan Nancarrow drew visually-pleasing lines of punched holes on player piano rolls starting in the 1950's, so picture-based sound-generation has a history, imo. He was a bit outside of the avant-garde/academic music culture (Columbia/university, neo-classical, theory-based) so he might best be called just "experimental" as well. Oldnoise-a-loid

On Thu, 27 May 1999, solenoid wrote:

quoted 9 lines On Tue, 11 May 1999, Moonlight wrote:

> On Tue, 11 May 1999, Moonlight wrote: > > >(what other meta-genres would > > have songs written by pictures?), > > The "fake" Dr Moolenbeek of Hafler Trio, an experimental electronic music > (maybe called "noise music") supposedly generated pictures from paint > exposed to soundwaves (just a joke, afaict) though that is the reverse > process of what you mentioned.

Ah yes, Moolenbeek. Didn't he get imprisoned for his beliefs or was it that other guy? I would take anything in H3O liner notes with a heft of salt; most of their early work was based from cut-up voices (not very visual at all).

quoted 3 lines Also, Conlan Nancarrow drew visually-pleasing lines of punched holes on

> Also, Conlan Nancarrow drew visually-pleasing lines of punched holes on > player piano rolls starting in the 1950's, so picture-based > sound-generation has a history, imo. He was a bit outside of the

I don't think Nancarrow was dealing with his scores as explicit visual objects (e.g. visual art that deliberately made sense as music or vice versa). The architect Bruce Goff, however, did, though I'd have to say it came at an expense to both the music and visual component (which was mostly zigzagging lines and dots). Now that I think about it, this would've been an interesting avenue for Steve Reich to have explored (rather than the path up his own sphincter). Cage did a lot of work with using manipulated visual information to instantiate his scores (part of his early parameter-based work- most of his "mixes" were determined thusly. Speaking of which, Le Forte Four did a pretty nifty goof/tribute to Fontana Mix by applying its score to the "S" section of their record collection. The results can be found on their swan song _Spin 'N Grin_ or the massive LAFMS box set). I also remember that some of Stockhausen's early work (his Klavierstucke?) also utilized staff charts spread out on a page and sequenced by the "chance" operation of the pianist blinking and playing the first chunk that he/she focused on (augenblick). Also, Morton Feldman's work was heavily influenced by visual objects (Persian carpets, Philip Guston, Rothko, etc), though they didn't occupy any deterministic role in the composition process and hence don't fall under the initial charter. I'm sure there are tons of more recent conceptual work "composed" by hegemonic art pieces (such as Terry Fox's "Berlino," though that's based on the shape of the Berlin Wall as you follow it around), but I can't really think any off the top of my head. -rob

quoted 1 line How many techno records will stand out to you in 10 years?

>> How many techno records will stand out to you in 10 years?

that's what IDM is all about to me...I did get really tired of the incredible lack of innovatition in techno music after a few years and then I heard some Aphex Twin for the first time and I was completely hooked...and to my surprise I found out that a great deal of the music I heard at raves that stood out to me and that i remembered were by RDJ (ex: ABB 4 and Digeridoo). I do think a lot of these songs will still stand out to me after a long time.

quoted 3 lines and please use a different term

> and please use a different term > to generalize all electronic music rather than techno. techno is crap > electronic music like Keoki and Moby.

Back off, brother, you're choking on yr. Keds. -d.w.

quoted 1 line which ones stand out from ten years ago??

> which ones stand out from ten years ago??

Skinny Puppy. --sharon

quoted 1 line How many techno records will stand out to you in 10 years?

>How many techno records will stand out to you in 10 years?

what year did "Strings of Life" come out ? - most of that early Detroit techno stuff stands up to time incredibly well

quoted 1 line which ones stand out from ten years ago??

>which ones stand out from ten years ago??

not a whole lot. ten years ago doesn't seem to have been a very good time for any genre of music. pre-grunge, post-glam. hiphop from the turn-of-the-decade also lacked. or maybe we just don't have enough historical distance. 5 years ago music like the smiths or new order would've made me vomit, now i can't get enough. my Skinny Puppy collection still makes me happy, and they fit into "10 years ago" (as well as 15 years ago). i tend to think they are pretty darn IDM if you compare them to other industrial music. closer to autechre than KMFDM if you ask me. same goes with Suicide, closer to panasonic than the punk era. i still haven't recovered from my shock when, after first hearing a suicide recording, i discovered how old they are. so i guess suicide can be considered as well. tomas

quoted 3 lines And Moby is not crap music. Moby showed me that music could be fun again

> And Moby is not crap music. Moby showed me that music could be fun again > through his house tracks (while i had been listening to un-fun music like > Soundgarden and Alice in Chains)

Moby is crap - so is house. so what's moby's house like? moby is what mother's do aerobics to. cb <today has been a fun day for contrasting opinons>

quoted 11 lines Chester Blaze wrote:

> Chester Blaze wrote: > >> to generalize all electronic music rather than techno. techno is crap >> electronic music like Keoki and Moby. >> > > > I wouldn't say that in Detroit if I were you. Time to get some > education..... > >

Funny you say that - i am in detroit. and work for detroit music companies that produce that same crap i am talking about. cb

quoted 4 lines The House comment is simply wrong. I call to the stand Mr. Terry Lee Brown Jr.

> The House comment is simply wrong. I call to the stand Mr. Terry Lee Brown Jr. > Check his testimony before you pass judgment. > jeff >

Yeah - i had that album - gave it to a friend of mine who likes that stuff. i like the cover design though. cb

--- Chester Blaze <webmaster@reachsports.com> wrote:

quoted 15 lines Chester Blaze wrote:

> > > Chester Blaze wrote: > > > >> to generalize all electronic music rather than > techno. techno is crap > >> electronic music like Keoki and Moby. > > > > I wouldn't say that in Detroit if I were you. > Time to get some > > education..... > > > > > Funny you say that - i am in detroit. and work for > detroit music companies > that produce that same crap i am talking about.

What companies do you work with? Planet E has consistently put out quality techno. There's alot of awesome shit out of Detroit. I'm not too into alot of the Metroplex stuff, but they have some good stuff every once in a while _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com

The House comment is simply wrong. I call to the stand Mr. Terry Lee Brown Jr. Check his testimony before you pass judgment. jeff Chester Blaze wrote:

quoted 9 lines And Moby is not crap music. Moby showed me that music could be fun again

> > And Moby is not crap music. Moby showed me that music could be fun again > > through his house tracks (while i had been listening to un-fun music like > > Soundgarden and Alice in Chains) > > Moby is crap - so is house. so what's moby's house like? > moby is what mother's do aerobics to. > > cb > <today has been a fun day for contrasting opinons>

-- jeff "10,000 people all screaming the same thing at the same time are wrong, even if they're right." dancing/about/architecture "...with wandering steps and slow..." ICQ904008

there is a load of good house music (pal joey, reggie burrell, mr fingers etc), loads of good techno (UR, derrick may, robert hood)....yet again a whole genre is rarely crap (apart from opera, not really a genre, but terrible)... techno created idm....check out kaotic harmony, or icon, colonize , all the carl craig....its all bloody techno...most of idm is still techno....and also owes a lot to house.... cant we all just get along? ;) martin "~(({[Endemic~Distortion]}))~" wrote:

quoted 23 lines The House comment is simply wrong. I call to the stand Mr. Terry Lee Brown Jr.

> The House comment is simply wrong. I call to the stand Mr. Terry Lee Brown Jr. > Check his testimony before you pass judgment. > jeff > > Chester Blaze wrote: > > > > And Moby is not crap music. Moby showed me that music could be fun again > > > through his house tracks (while i had been listening to un-fun music like > > > Soundgarden and Alice in Chains) > > > > Moby is crap - so is house. so what's moby's house like? > > moby is what mother's do aerobics to. > > > > cb > > <today has been a fun day for contrasting opinons> > > -- > jeff > > "10,000 people all screaming the same thing at the same time are wrong, even if > they're right." > > dancing/about/architecture "...with wandering steps and slow..." ICQ904008

quoted 2 lines In my opinion -- there is a certain kind of "arrogance" inherent in techno.

>In my opinion -- there is a certain kind of "arrogance" inherent in techno. > It was something that I, myself, was caught up in for quite awhile.

I have to agree, if you are talking about dance-related electronic stuff in general. Sometimes reading this list is like listening to guys from a record store complaining about their customers' bad taste, ie. lame, funny for a while, but ultimately pretty sad. However...

quoted 10 lines Now, looking at this (I wanted to use quotes from someone else to sort of

>Now, looking at this (I wanted to use quotes from someone else to sort of >back my own opinions) we can sort of describe techno with some of the >following adjectives: >avant garde >intellectual >anti-pop >minimalist >obscure >anti-mainstream >futuristic

quoted 1 line and... to a certain extent...

>and... to a certain extent...

quoted 1 line "inaccessible"

>"inaccessible"

I think you've put the cart before the horse here. You just quoted someone saying techno tends to attract intellectuals. That doesn't mean the music is created with any of the above shit in mind. I'd recommend checking out quotes from someone like Alan Oldham (DJ T-1000) on this very topic. He's very much referring to techno in its narrower, Detroit-centred definition. Actually, one quick quote from him I found on the Submerge show web site: "Europeans take the music too seriously, Detroit kids just want to rock." That's pretty straight up. ( http://www.submergetheshow.org btw ) Also, this following bit's from an interview at http://obscure.co.nz/people/carlcraig.html "The mainstream will never get a hold of this music, because it's above their heads in some way. It's only above their heads because they let it be above them. They try and relate it more to European music and don't realise that it comes from the street and has the same origins as hip-hop, soul, the blues and jazz." Michael Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

On Wed, 12 May 1999 03:01:17 Michael Upton wrote:

quoted 1 line Also, this following bit's from an interview at >Also, this following bit's from an interview at http://obscure.co.nz/people/carlcraig.html

quoted 1 line "The mainstream will never get a hold of this music, because it's above their he

>"The mainstream will never get a hold of this music, because it's above their heads in some way. It's only above their heads because they let it be above them. They try and relate it more to European music and don't realise that it comes from the street and has the same origins as hip-hop, soul, the blues and jazz."

Sorry, I didn't make it explicit that that's Carl Craig, not Alan Oldham. I could ramble for ages about how telling I think the quote is, but hopefully it speaks for itself and people can apply it to the context. Michael Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

quoted 7 lines my Skinny Puppy collection still makes me happy, and they fit into "10

> my Skinny Puppy collection still makes me happy, and they fit into "10 > years ago" (as well as 15 years ago). i tend to think they are pretty > darn IDM if you compare them to other industrial music. closer to > autechre than KMFDM if you ask me. same goes with Suicide, closer to > panasonic than the punk era. i still haven't recovered from my shock > when, after first hearing a suicide recording, i discovered how old they > are. so i guess suicide can be considered as well.

so is that vvv "endless" album a good buy then? i think panasonic can be a bit boring & tedious to listen to, but vvv seemed more interesting, & i've seen it in the used bins, so i figure if someone tells me it's good, i might just give it a try. :) -- david turgeon at http://www.notype.com

In a message dated 5/11/99 4:07:33 PM Mountain Daylight Time, webmaster@reachsports.com writes:

quoted 3 lines Moby is crap - so is house. so what's moby's house like?

> Moby is crap - so is house. so what's moby's house like? > moby is what mother's do aerobics to. >

::snicker::