179,854Messages
9,130Senders
30Years
342mboxes

← archive index

dj spooky & freedom of music, was: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)

7 messages · 4 participants · spans 1 day · search this subject
◇ merged from 4 subjects: (idm) graffiti and mass art (long) · (idm) grafikloo · (idm) re: dj spooky & freedom of music · dj spooky & freedom of music, was: (idm) graffiti and mass art (long)
1999-05-10 12:52Kelley Hackett RE: (idm) grafikloo
└─ 1999-05-10 13:22Sam Frank (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
1999-05-10 14:11Moonlight Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
└─ 1999-05-10 14:24Sam Frank Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
1999-05-10 14:40david turgeon dj spooky & freedom of music, was: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
├─ 1999-05-10 14:47Sam Frank Re: dj spooky & freedom of music, was: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
└─ 1999-05-10 15:32Moonlight (idm) Re: dj spooky & freedom of music
expand allcollapse allclick any summary to toggle that message
1999-05-10 12:52Kelley HackettHmmmmmm. Rjyan's point is well taken(or should I say his question). I dont want to get in
From:
Kelley Hackett
To:
'jpklein@flash.net' , 'idm@hyperreal.org'
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 07:52:00 -0500
Subject:
RE: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <397CA68ABF5AD111863C00805F0DDE980B07C7@aba.iupui.edu>
Hmmmmmm. Rjyan's point is well taken(or should I say his question). I dont want to get in the logical bullshit of it, cuz its mere rhetoric but here is the thing! If ya look at many of the countries in the West, they have recieved many of their material items at the expense of others(Yes, fucking yes this is general so dont get bent out of shape by my general terms---but read your history books though)----thus this, in my eyes, is a form of stealing-----as Rjyan question kinda dictates----it wasnt yours in the beginning! In fact, when ya hit that cold and dark ass ground(when ya die) then who's property does ones belong to. Typically we humans just past our items along to our family members, those same items that we got from someone else---. Vicious cyle of human culture--- So, to try and tie this all together---a building, a building, hmmmm. It was built by a numerous amout of people for one person or one group of people----but the ownership part is tricky! Here again, if ya think about it, we dont even own our bodies---------but along the graffiti lines----just spray all the walls with the best graffiti---and let me sit back and get excited! Hk-90!
quoted 76 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: ~(({[Endemic~Distortion]}))~ [SMTP:jpklein@flash.net] > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 9:08 PM > To: Rjyan C Kidwell > Cc: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) grafikloo > > Well, we are quite far afield from the topic of graffiti. It might > also be > asked "what gives anyone the right to foist their concept of art on > people > in the public forum as such?". The burden of proof would actually lie > with > you, though, as the commonly accepted position IS that of the > propriety of > personal ownership - notwithstanding the fact that you slipped your > premise > under the door in the form of a question - and you need to unseat the > established position before proceeding to establish a new one. Even > so, I'd > go with this : Personal investment in said object(s) along the lines > of > commonly accepted currency and the responsibilities thereof in the > community > at large. Behind this would lie the self-evident (imo, of course) > problem of > human nature....while a world where we dole all things out equitably > is a > nice ideal, it doesn't seem to fit well into the experience of > reality. We > all tend to be a tad selfish, greedy and get-over at times. Without > the > conventions we recognize as boundries and ownership, I'm not at all > convinced that we wouldn't be even less civilized than we are. > NOW...really, > I like graffiti in most cases. I'm just not certain it's entirely > ethical in > every situation. > Listcontent: Who else was abit disappointed in the Depth Charge > Electro-Boogie? I guess I was just expecting a bit more. Just me, > or...? > > jeff > > Rjyan C Kidwell wrote: > > > >>>Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an > > >>>individual a right to destroy another's property? > > >> > > >> what gives you the right to own things? > > > > > >Again, can I come over and test this proposition with your music > > >collection? > > > > not until you answer my previous question > > with a declarative statement. > > > > rjck.,/__ > > ,)__www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1 > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at > http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > -- > jeff > > "10,000 people all screaming the same thing at the same time are > wrong, even > if they're right." > > dancing/about/architecture "...with wandering steps and slow..." > ICQ904008 >
1999-05-10 13:22Sam FrankWhile I don't want to linger too long on the graf aspect of this thread, it could raise in
From:
Sam Frank
To:
Kelley Hackett
Cc:
'jpklein@flash.net' , 'idm@hyperreal.org'
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 09:22:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
(idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
Reply to:
RE: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <Pine.GSO.3.94.990510090023.8349A-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
While I don't want to linger too long on the graf aspect of this thread, it could raise interesting questions about art in public spaces. I think one way of thinking about graffiti is that it takes all public space as a canvas for art. Admitedly, this sometimes conflicts with more legal and traditional definitions of public space, but one way of thinking about such space is that if it's out in the open for everybody to see, it's fair game for all viewers to recreate in a way they like. Is it fair that only those who own property get to define what we see on our walls, billboards, etc. when we walk around every day? Isn't that a fundamentally elitist definition of art and visual culture? Graffiti artists aren't generally breaking into priviate property and defacing that--almost by definition, they're creating where other people can see it. Now it possible to argue with that conception of public space, and I don't have a complete attachment to it, although it has a certain appeal. But what do you think about other anti-elitist, possibly annoying forms of public art? What about music blasted from boomboxes? Killer bass in low-riding cars? Audio terrorism is general, where one person imposes his or her musical tastes on the public? And before you say that's just noise pollution, consider the musical tastes that are imposed on us all the time, in a state-sanctioned way. Elevator music in stores is the most glaring example. Might it not be more democratic to let everybody who's interested compete for our ears, rather than just those with the money to play us music that will increase our sales rates, as scientifically verified by consumer experts? The next step becomes more aggresively pirate art. Pirate radio for example, is a kind of break-in to private airwaves, although why a public resource has been privatized like that is a moral stumper (not an economic one mind you). Defacing billboards, often to subvert their meaning (like the artists who changed Amelia Earhart's Apple ad to "Think Doomed"). I need to read more about the Situationists, but it seems like one of the few ways to avoid playing proscripted roles in a mass media culture is to subvert spectacle society, and reclaim public space for individuals. IDM loves to talk about indie labels, avoiding the hegemony of the major labels, etc. But art like graffiti in effect takes discussions of art out of the consumer context altogether. Graffiti isn't bought or sold (except in commodified, bastardized versions), but just is. Thus, it has more artistic integrity than any art for sale, because it answers to nobody, eexcept perhaps the police. Here, the artist controls who sees their work and when--the tradeoff is that there ain't a way to make a living doing real graffiti. Anyway, ponder that before criticizing graffiti out of hand. personally, i think it would be a more interesting world if everybody started making art and music and broadcasting it to the public. It might disintegrate into a cacophony, indeed probably would, but it would be fun, messy, dirty, and most of all, not corporate. Comrade Sam sez "Power to the people!"
1999-05-10 14:11MoonlightSam Frank <samuel.frank@yale.edu> wrote: >personally, >i think it would be a more interest
From:
Moonlight
To:
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 09:11:19 -0500
Subject:
Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
permalink · <3.0.5.32.19990510091119.008cdd50@augsburg.edu>
Sam Frank <samuel.frank@yale.edu> wrote:
quoted 5 lines personally,>personally, >i think it would be a more interesting world if everybody started making >art and music and broadcasting it to the public. It might disintegrate >into a cacophony, indeed probably would, but it would be fun, messy, >dirty, and most of all, not corporate.
Sounds like DJ Spooky joined the list under an alias and is dumbing down his speech... _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA Visit my Fila Brazillia/Pork Recordings fan site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY
1999-05-10 14:24Sam Frank> Sounds like DJ Spooky joined the list under an alias and is dumbing down > his speech...
From:
Sam Frank
To:
Moonlight
Cc:
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 10:24:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
Reply to:
Re: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
permalink · <Pine.GSO.3.94.990510101734.8349B-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
quoted 2 lines Sounds like DJ Spooky joined the list under an alias and is dumbing down> Sounds like DJ Spooky joined the list under an alias and is dumbing down > his speech...
If you want to criticize what I have to say, criticize it. If you think i used too much jargon, say which jargon and what simpler language I should have used. If you think I'm stupid, explain why. Don't insult me with without backing it up. And god, I don't think DJ Spooky would even suggest that mass art is fun. He's trying too hard to be deep and pretentious. Shortlived Sam, just joined the list yesterday (and if you believe that one, there's a certain bridge you might be interested in)
1999-05-10 14:40david turgeon> Sounds like DJ Spooky joined the list under an alias and is dumbing down > his speech...
From:
david turgeon
To:
Moonlight
Cc:
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 10:40:27 -0400
Subject:
dj spooky & freedom of music, was: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
permalink · <3736EFD4.AF608513@mnemonic.net>
quoted 2 lines Sounds like DJ Spooky joined the list under an alias and is dumbing down> Sounds like DJ Spooky joined the list under an alias and is dumbing down > his speech...
so uhm, to shift the conversation away from graffiti to something more idm-related, i'm curious about why dj spooky gets so much criticism on this list & elsewhere when his ideas are in the very least fresh enough to deserve some attention (although his music doesn't always get me). what is he, the satan of electronic music? he-who-you-shall-not-follow? i like the fact that everybody is entitled to do their own music nowadays & post it publically for others to witness/enjoy. i refuse to accept that it'll necessarily lead to chaos & cacophony. nobody makes art just to add to ambient chaos -- it's usually the other way around; making art so as to bring humanly-recognizable order into chaos. monday morning ranting! you can tell i had a good weekend. (actually, i did. :) -- david turgeon at http://www.notype.com
1999-05-10 14:47Sam Frank> so uhm, to shift the conversation away from graffiti to something more > idm-related, i'
From:
Sam Frank
To:
david turgeon
Cc:
Moonlight ,
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 10:47:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
Re: dj spooky & freedom of music, was: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
Reply to:
dj spooky & freedom of music, was: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
permalink · <Pine.GSO.3.94.990510104408.8349G-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
quoted 5 lines so uhm, to shift the conversation away from graffiti to something more> so uhm, to shift the conversation away from graffiti to something more > idm-related, i'm curious about why dj spooky gets so much criticism on > this list & elsewhere when his ideas are in the very least fresh enough > to deserve some attention (although his music doesn't always get me). > what is he, the satan of electronic music? he-who-you-shall-not-follow?
Well, his ideas aren't really fresh. it seem to me that they're garbled appropriations and quotes from a variety of much smarter people, and that they're just rehashing the same themes of authorship, etc that theorists and philosophers have been dealing with for years. One listen to his new album bears me out, as he mumbles about "making music with fragments of memory" and has some idiotic authorship debate with another dj. he's well-read, and that's all one can say for his ideas--they bastardize the best. Sam
1999-05-10 15:32Moonlight>why dj spooky gets so much criticism on this list & elsewhere when his ideas >are in the
From:
Moonlight
To:
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 10:32:53 -0500
Subject:
(idm) Re: dj spooky & freedom of music
Reply to:
dj spooky & freedom of music, was: (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
permalink · <3.0.5.32.19990510103253.008c1d70@augsburg.edu>
quoted 3 lines why dj spooky gets so much criticism on this list & elsewhere when his ideas>why dj spooky gets so much criticism on this list & elsewhere when his ideas >are in the very least fresh enough to deserve some attention (although his >music doesn't always get me).
I'm in the other boat, i really dig his music (well, not riddim warfare as much, too scattered, too many "fragments of memory":) ), but when he talks, i just wish he'd shut up. I'd rather listen to music than some self-proclaimed nerd talk about the theory behind this great music he makes. I like his liner notes, they're more fun cos i don't have to hear his "i'm so much smarter than you and i've got this faked (?) b-boy accent with it" voice. When his books get released (if ever), i will buy them and spend needless hours trying to get my head around them. His writing is great vocab-builder. This past October, i saw him do a free instore and a full concert. I'd never seen anyone explain a DJ set before, and that took so much from it. And throughout his concert, he kept talking about these fragments of memory, and i just wanted to hear his tablaist and drummer (jojo mayer, really good, played jungle live). I read an article interviewing him yesterday in a local free monthly music mag. He even complains about DJ Olive claiming credit for inventing "illbient", when he claim's he coined it. I find that a rather dubious acheivement. _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA Visit my Fila Brazillia/Pork Recordings fan site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY